Catholic vs. Orthodox Monasticism

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inthecloud said:
Orthodox monastiscism is based on St Basil order.
Is purelly contemplative, as are western catholics orders like the Trappists, Benedictines and Carmelistes for example.
The problem is that the Western Church did had to fill the huge vacumm of the fall of the western Roman Empire. So orders like the Benedictines, contemplative in nature took a more active role in evangelization. That feature became official with the creation of preaching and teaching monks, the friars like the Franciscan, Agustinian, Dominicans and Carmelites. And also the social service orders like the Hospitallers that had also a military function, and there were pure military orders like the Templars.
Remember that the Western Church makes a technical difference between Monks and Nuns, who are contemplative like their Eastern bethren. Friars who are contemplative but have a more active role, brothers and sisters like the Sisters of Mercy and Mother Theresa’ Missionaries of Charity who are devoted to health and education to the poor.
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God bless!
  1. Like I have said we have no orders !
  2. we have no different kinds of monasticism like contemplative or active - that is a mis.concept of monasticism
3.all should be monastics also the “laity”
  1. it is good to help the Brother in need but it is not the goal of monasticism - it is a secular concept of beeing good and charitable - christians should not be good in a secular sennse !
IN CHRIST
 
jam070406 said:
:eek:
What’s that passage that says if someone preaches a different gospel you are to do what? Yikes!
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God bless!

I do not reall know what mean !
Do want that christians should be like charity members - is this the essence of christianity ? NO.

You know that many atheists and even many communist do charity even Satanist and God haters - so where is the essence of christianity ?

And please there is a difference in a moral kind of to be good or to radiat the grace of Christ to others !

Christ also speaks of “I give u my peace…” and not a wordly kind of …also christian love is different from secular sentimental love… we live in the world but are not from the world !

In CHRIST
 
bogoljub said:
God bless!

I do not reall know what mean !
Do want that christians should be like charity members - is this the essence of christianity ? NO.

You know that many atheists and even many communist do charity even Satanist and God haters - so where is the essence of christianity ?

And please there is a difference in a moral kind of to be good or to radiat the grace of Christ to others !

Christ also speaks of “I give u my peace…” and not a wordly kind of …also christian love is different from secular sentimental love… we live in the world but are not from the world !

In CHRIST
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So you now equate Catholic monks and nuns to communists, satanists and God haters.
You are a piece of work.
 
God bless !

What is monasticism ?

Father Maximus replied that it is not easy to explain to outsiders what monasticism is. It is a great Mystery, he said, that can only be experienced. To outsiders the phenomenon of monsticism is simply incomprehensible.

According to Evagrius of Pontus, a dessert father of the fourth century, monks are those people who have seperated themselves geographically from everything and everybody and yet are invisibly connected with everything and everybody through prayer and the love of Christ.

According to St. Maximos, monks are those people who have removed their minds from the world of material objects, and through continence, love , prayer and chanting they become totally focused on God.

A monk is one who has nothing except CHRIST.

Thomas asks Father Maximos: Did not a real fighter must remain within the world to deal with every day mundane life rather than to look after his own well being in order to gain eternal bliss ? No where have I read in the Holy Bible that Christ was speaking about monsticism. Don’t u find it egoistical to lock oneself up in a monstery with the sole aim of saving one’s soul ?

A classical question !

Fa Max: First of all, the way u interprete the gospel is not the way the holy Elders interpreted it. The Gospel is very clear about this issue !
Let me give you an example. Do u not recall the incident when that young man went to Christ and asked him: Lord, what must I do to save my soul ? And Christ replayed: Sell everything you have and join me.In another part we hear Christ say: Nobody can be my disciple if he loves his mother of his father, or his daugther or his fields more than me. And he gave the first injunction: LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY SOUL AND WITH ALL THY HEART. That is, love God with your entire being. Just think of the twelve Apostels. They were ordinary people that He picked from ordinary life, but they gave up everything in order to follow and life with him.

T:Yes but Christ lived in the world. He did not lock Himslef into a monastery.

Fa Max: How many years did Christ live in the world ? Thirty-three years right ? How many years did he preach ?

T: Almost three !

Fa Max: Right, Of the thirty-three years. He preached for only about two and a half. What was He doing the previous thirty years ?

T:Well there is the apocryphal life of Christ that we don’t know much about.

Fa Max:That means that for thrity years Christ maintained a life of silence. He never preached nor did he do anything noticeable. The Mostholy Mother of God, the Panhagia, the holiest being in the universe never did anything that we can p(name removed by moderator)oint. Did she ever preach ? Did she ever create and welfare institutions ? The only thing we know is that the Panhagia was in the Temple praying and worshippng God. Then she was given her special assignment. Why was she chosen to give birth to Christ ? Certainly not because she a great missionary, but because she was perfect holy.

Also keep in mind Thomas, that the Apostels lived communally. They gave up everything that connected them to the material world because of their exclusive preoccopation with God. They owned nothing individually. They lived celibate liives and were totally obedient to their master and teacher . This is exactly what we do in the monastery. So really the roots and foundations of monasticism began right from the inception of Christianity by Christ Himslef through His life with the Apsotels.

This is what we monks try to do. We try to do what Christ suggested, leave everything behind to attain perfection and wait until we are visited by the power from on high. Only then can we know what we must do. Christ spoke clearly about this.
In another story we hear of the man who asked Christ to wait for him until he buries his father, a very honorable and natural request. And what was Christ’s reply ? Let the dead bury their dead. In other words, what is of supreme importance over and above all relationships is our relationship to God. Isn’t this an invitation to monastic life ? Isn’t that the begnning or monasticism ?

…from the book; The Mountain of Silence by K. C. Markides

I CHRIST
 
jam070406 said:
So you now equate Catholic monks and nuns to communists, satanists and God haters.
You are a piece of work.
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God bless !!

No of course not ! I only want to show that to be good and charity is not the essence of christianity or monasticism !

You should read my post exactly.

In CHRIST
 
bogoljub said:
God bless!

I do not reall know what mean !
Do want that christians should be like charity members - is this the essence of christianity ? NO.

You know that many atheists and even many communist do charity even Satanist and God haters - so where is the essence of christianity ?

And please there is a difference in a moral kind of to be good or to radiat the grace of Christ to others !

Christ also speaks of “I give u my peace…” and not a wordly kind of …also christian love is different from secular sentimental love… we live in the world but are not from the world !

In CHRIST
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I am truly frightened by the false dichotomy you adhere to. “You will know them by their fruits” must mean something to you. Faith, hope and Charity are the Christian life.

This is what Jesus has to say on the matter:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, ] you did it to me.’
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What the Lord describes here you call secular good works. Do you really believe what you wrote?
 
Melchior said:
I am truly frightened by the false dichotomy you adhere to. “You will know them by their fruits” must mean something to you. Faith, hope and Charity are the Christian life.
This is what Jesus has to say on the matter:
What the Lord describes here you call secular good works. Do you really believe what you wrote?
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God bless !

Yes we will know them by their fruits - so they mentioned Satanist are the best christians or the communists ?

I did not say anything against true charity - I was speaking of secular charity - only to do good deeds- do u not know the book ot St. Ephraim the great : For those who think they will be saved through works ??

And again you interpret the Holy Scripture in your understanding and not how the Holy Church or the Fathers interpreted it !
That is a main propblem- most of all sects interprete the Scriptures in their understanding ! Go and read the fathers and than let us see what they say.

In CHRIST
 
bogoljub said:
God bless !

Yes we will know them by their fruits - so they mentioned Satanist are the best christians or the communists ?

I did not say anything against true charity - I was speaking of secular charity - only to do good deeds- do u not know the book ot St. Ephraim the great : For those who think they will be saved through works ??

And again you interpret the Holy Scripture in your understanding and not how the Holy Church or the Fathers interpreted it !
That is a main propblem- most of all sects interprete the Scriptures in their understanding ! Go and read the fathers and than let us see what they say.

In CHRIST
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I do interpret them according to the fathers. You can’t just make a claim and not back it up. You are dodging the question. I don’t believe we are saved by works. I was referring to works done in Christ for His glory. But you mistakenly call Christian charity secular which is not patristic or biblical. So what an atheist does good works. It profits him nothing. But it is of great value to the Christian because it reflects the love of Christ. You seem to want to make a distinction that everything any other Christian can do is wrong because it is not a Orthodox person saying it or doing it. If I were to say prayer is good you would say it is not good and come up with some vague reference to the fathers about how only the prayer of an Arab or Greek is heard by God. 😉
 
We should not try to make the Church “worldly” we should try to make the world “Churchy” :rolleyes: We should bring the blessing and transformation in the whole world even to the animal and plants to the whole cosmos !
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Exactly.

Is it just me, or are objections to Orthodoxy on this board starting to sound more and more… um… Protestant? I’d never heard Catholics approach Orthodox monasticism in this way before. Protestants, yes - but they have a problem with the entire concept of monasticism.
 
paradoxy said:
Exactly.

Is it just me, or are objections to Orthodoxy on this board starting to sound more and more… um… Protestant? I’d never heard Catholics approach Orthodox monasticism in this way before. Protestants, yes - but they have a problem with the entire concept of monasticism.
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Pomoschi Bog !
God may help!

No I also have the impression, I had known that there are great differences but I never thought them so great.

Many things I have read here from rcc sounds really protestant to me - you only have to read what some rcc are saying about Tradition ! It is like denying the whole apostolic Tradition !

In CHRIST
 
paradoxy said:
Exactly.

Is it just me, or are objections to Orthodoxy on this board starting to sound more and more… um… Protestant? I’d never heard Catholics approach Orthodox monasticism in this way before. Protestants, yes - but they have a problem with the entire concept of monasticism.
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oh please!!! There have been no objections. Your anti-Catholic buddy can’t even talk about the subject without equating Catholic monks to communists and satanists. And acts of charity as evil. Catholics have done nothing but try and deflect the bigotry. Stop playing the victim and furthering insulting us by saying we sound Protestant.
 
bogoljub said:
Pomoschi Bog !
God may help!

No I also have the impression, I had known that there are great differences but I never thought them so great.

Many things I have read here from rcc sounds really protestant to me - you only have to read what some rcc are saying about Tradition ! It is like denying the whole apostolic Tradition !

In CHRIST
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Gee, what a shock that YOU of all people would share Paradoxy’s impression. :rolleyes:
As long as it bashes Catholics you’ll agree with anything.
 
God bless !

Elder Cleopa of Romainia:

Which monks please God more: those who live in silence in the wilderness with fasting and ceaseless prayer, or those who preach to others the word of the Lord for their salvation?

The monk who struggles in the wilderness with great humility, silence, tears, fasting, temperance, and renunciation of all the cares of the world, cleansing his soul from the passions, is closer to God than one who preaches to others the word of the Lord without having spiritual strength to perform the things he teaches. St. Isaac the Syrian tells us: “I wouldn’t compare those who work signs, wonders, and mighty acts in the world with those who live in silence with spiritual intelligence. Love more the inactivity of silence than to satisfy the hungry in the world or to return many nations to faith in God” (Homily 23). Consequently, it is a greater and more profitable work to purify oneself from the passions of body and soul in silence and submission, than to teach others the will of God when one has not attained a proper spiritual age for this. St. Gregory the Theologian says the following about this: “It is good to theologize about God, but it is better to purify yourself from your passions for the sake of God.” And St. Isaac the Syrian says: “It is more profitable for you to strive to resurrect your fallen soul through moving your thoughts towards divine things, than to resurrect the dead.” Then the same Father adds: “Many have performed mighty acts, raised the dead, labored to return those astray, and done great works … but after these things they themselves fell into unclean and filthy passions, killed themselves, and became a scandal to many by their open deeds. For they were still sick in their souls and did not take care to be healed, but they committed themselves to the sea of the world to heal the souls of others while they themselves were sick, losing thus their souls and their hope in God.”
 
jam070406 said:
Gee, what a shock that YOU of all people would share Paradoxy’s impression. :rolleyes:
As long as it bashes Catholics you’ll agree with anything.
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God bless!

No I have told u I am not anti-catholic ! I do not want innovation or any change of faith - I want to keep the true orthodox faith without secularization or modernism- that’s all.

When u say that Tradition is not a part of Doctrine and deny all the apostolic truth - of course I will never agree ! But I did not know that rcc are against Tradition I always thought for you it is also important - so I see I was wrong .

IN CHRIST
 
God bless !

From the same:

What is the most important work of monasteries and monks?

To pray unceasingly for themselves and for the whole world. To glorify God always, to teach and console the faithful. In the monastery Martha should obey Mary, and not the other way around, and live harmoniously with her. If we will do this, ‘’nothing will destroy our city.’’

—Why have zeal for prayer and good works weakened today, both in the monasteries and among laypeople?

Because faith has diminished in the whole world. Today every layman and monk confesses that he cannot pray as they did in the past. Only with great labor and pains can some good monks and laymen maintain pure prayer day and night. We others are always surrounded by cares, people, and weaknesses, and when we pray our minds are scattered and full of thoughts. Consider the three attacks the Savior passed through when satan tempted him—first by gluttony, second by pride, and third by unbelief. In each case he conquered by ‘’I will worship the Lord my God, and Him alone will I serve.’’ Today there is a great quarrel between “Martha” and “Mary,” over who has chosen the good part. In the monasteries, as everywhere, Martha dominates Mary and does not let her pray much, while Mary weeps inconsolably.** If we would put the church and the praise of God first (Mary) and obediences and handiwork second (Martha), then all our monasteries and churches would be spiritually reborn and the devil would flee from men. **
 
bogoljub said:
God bless!

No I have told u I am not anti-catholic ! I do not want innovation or any change of faith - I want to keep the true orthodox faith without secularization or modernism- that’s all.

When u say that Tradition is not a part of Doctrine and deny all the apostolic truth - of course I will never agree ! But I did not know that rcc are against Tradition I always thought for you it is also important - so I see I was wrong .

IN CHRIST
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I’m not against Tradition. :banghead:
 
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