Catholic vs. Orthodox Monasticism

[Ridgerunner]

Orthodox posters:

Gee! Orthodoxy sees monasticism in one way only. It’s your religion, and you can think of it as you wish. It does not trouble me that you do.

Catholicism thinks of monasticism in various ways, including your way of thinking of it. Catholicism is not your religion. Nor is it your experience. Not being your experience, you criticize it from afar; as outsiders looking in, and from your own perspective only. It is evident to me you have no particular interest in understanding it, and no desire to be anything but critical of it. So be it.

I might mention one thing. “Monasticism” is an English word; thus a “Latin” world word. Since it’s our language and our institution, and we really mean our word to apply to our institution as we understand it, and since you wish to understand the word in a different sense than its proper sense as an English word, perhaps you should only use the Greek word for your conception of it. Then you’ll be right.

That’s the real problem here. You want to impose a Greek meaning on an English word that does not mean what you want to think it means. All that does is cause dissention. Use the Greek word.

 

[ForeverAdam]

I honestly don’t understand the idea of complete seperation - this is certainly not what Christ or the Apostles did. To be honest I think it creates some downright strange ideas. I cannot think of the books title but it is about a guy who visits Mt. Athos and this respected old Monk tells him he should leave his wife and children and join the monastery and cannot understand why he would not. I find such a thing appalling. Did this man become more holy in his isolation or more out of touch with reality. I don’t mean to sound harsh but I cannot see how one can be considered a holy man and tell married men to abandon their families. I find such a thinking anti-Christian. I am sure that is not the view of most, but still, it was shocking.

Orthodox monasticism finds its highest model in the Holy Savior, himself. Christ spent the majority of his earthly life (30 years) in complete separation and only 3 years preaching and teaching. Additionally, the Holy Mother of God spent her whole life in complete separation from the world. The Holy Elder Simeon and the Prophetess Anna spent much of their lives in the temple of God. What did they do during this time? They lived the life of Orthodox monastics - a life of prayer and asceticism so that they might see the light of God. Far from hiding their light under a bushel, their seeking of God in seclusion and ceaseless prayer provided the backbone of the preaching of the Gospel and many people came to them for guidance in living the godly life. The same is true today of Orthodox monastics. God raises up these monks and nuns, who leave the world for the angelic life, as the models of Christian living and Orthodox monasteries are to this day beacons of light and oasis in a spiritually dark and thirsty world. Regarding social work in the world, the Church has always seen this as the work of parochial clergy and laity. Monasticism is the life of the angels and it exists to be a model and example of the heavenly life that all should seek. Those who live in the world should be the ones who tend to those things that are more earthly in nature. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to have orders for single people who desire to serve the poor and needy, this is acceptable. However, it should always clarify that such people are neither monastics nor leading the strict angelic life of monasticism that was revealed by the coming of Christ and practiced by many holy saints from the beginning of the Church.

God bless,

Adam

 

[Melchior]

Orthodox monasticism finds its highest model in the Holy Savior, himself. Christ spent the majority of his earthly life (30 years) in complete separation and only 3 years preaching and teaching. Additionally, the Holy Mother of God spent her whole life in complete separation from the world. The Holy Elder Simeon and the Prophetess Anna spent much of their lives in the temple of God. What did they do during this time? They lived the life of Orthodox monastics - a life of prayer and asceticism so that they might see the light of God. Far from hiding their light under a bushel, their seeking of God in seclusion and ceaseless prayer provided the backbone of the preaching of the Gospel and many people came to them for guidance in living the godly life. The same is true today of Orthodox monastics. God raises up these monks and nuns, who leave the world for the angelic life, as the models of Christian living and Orthodox monasteries are to this day beacons of light and oasis in a spiritually dark and thirsty world. Regarding social work in the world, the Church has always seen this as the work of parochial clergy and laity. Monasticism is the life of the angels and it exists to be a model and example of the heavenly life that all should seek. Those who live in the world should be the ones who tend to those things that are more earthly in nature. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to have orders for single people who desire to serve the poor and needy, this is acceptable. However, it should always clarify that such people are neither monastics nor leading the strict angelic life of monasticism that was revealed by the coming of Christ and practiced by many holy saints from the beginning of the Church.

God bless,

Adam

Hi Adam,

I don’t know where you got the idea that Jesus led a life of complete seperation (in the monastic sense) for 30 years. He was most likely a carpenter. There is no biblical or patristic evidence of him seperating himself - we know of 40 days and nights nothing more. As for Mary and the temple it is a pious tradition at best. The record (scripture) is silent on the matter. The only record we do have records her life just before and after as a married woman and mother, not an ascetic. Apocryphal accounts from later centuries can be appreciated but not trusted as factual like the gospels.

I have no problem with your understanding of monastics, but I am pretty sure from news reports that there is quite a bit of strife and not the holiness found on Athos and elsewhere - which is a shame. There are Orthodox monks that spend their time making music condemning Israel and all sort of non prayer related things. But I am not saying that as if Catholic Monastics are perfect either just that reality does not always match the ideal and I find romanticism about monastics and history common to the Orthodox while the western church can do no good no matter how many saints she has produced. Not that you do the latter.

If the Roman Catholic Church wants to have orders for single people who desire to serve the poor and needy, this is acceptable. However, it should always clarify that such people are neither monastics nor leading the strict angelic life of monasticism that was revealed by the coming of Christ and practiced by many holy saints from the beginning of the Church.

Respectfully, you don’t get to define monasticism for the Catholic Church. Christianity was brought to Ireland by monastics and thrived their under monastics for some time. There are different kinds of monks and many follow the way Jesus lived very closely compared to their brothers who are seperated ascetics. Both are needed. Both are good.

I would like you take on the story I related about the Monk telling the man to leave his family. What would you say to him?

Mel

 

[bogoljub]

Orthodox posters:

Gee! Orthodoxy sees monasticism in one way only. It’s your religion, and you can think of it as you wish. It does not trouble me that you do.

Catholicism thinks of monasticism in various ways, including your way of thinking of it. Catholicism is not your religion. Nor is it your experience. Not being your experience, you criticize it from afar; as outsiders looking in, and from your own perspective only. It is evident to me you have no particular interest in understanding it, and no desire to be anything but critical of it. So be it.

I might mention one thing. “Monasticism” is an English word; thus a “Latin” world word. Since it’s our language and our institution, and we really mean our word to apply to our institution as we understand it, and since you wish to understand the word in a different sense than its proper sense as an English word, perhaps you should only use the Greek word for your conception of it. Then you’ll be right.

That’s the real problem here. You want to impose a Greek meaning on an English word that does not mean what you want to think it means. All that does is cause dissention. Use the Greek word.

God bless !

Do we have different religons ? I thaught we are both christians ?

We do not critizise it from afar but we know christian monsticism very well ! Tell me did monasticism come from the east or from the west ? Do u know St. Anthony the great and St. Pachomy the great ?? Where are they from ? From Rome or italy ?

But we also honor St. Benedict and his Typicon is orthodox in the strict sense ! Or do u know St. John Cassian who brought the wisdom from the east to the west ?

But of course they all follow "greek"coceptions !

And wich conceptions do u follow ?

I think u do not really know the history of the christian monastic way ?

IN CHRIST

 

[ForeverAdam]

I don’t know where you got the idea that Jesus led a life of complete seperation (in the monastic sense) for 30 years. He was most likely a carpenter. There is no biblical or patristic evidence of him seperating himself - we know of 40 days and nights nothing more.

My point was that it isn’t obligatory for a Christian to live a public life of preaching the Gospel, or else Christ would have been wrong to fail to do this for the majority of his life. Monasticism cannot be considered less than ideal for living a life of humble prayer and service in private, for Christ, St. John the Baptist and the Apostles themselves lived such a life before their public ministry.

As for Mary and the temple it is a pious tradition at best. The record (scripture) is silent on the matter. The only record we do have records her life just before and after as a married woman and mother, not an ascetic.

Well, we don’t believe in sola scriptura in the Orthodox Church. I thought your Church didn’t either. Why would it matter if something is part of the Church’s Tradition but not mentioned in Holy Scripture? That doesn’t make it any less true. Besides, it’s fairly obvious that the Theotokos’ work was one of hidden prayer and service (much like that of our monastics) and not one of public evangelization.

I have no problem with your understanding of monastics, but I am pretty sure from news reports that their is quite a bit of strife and not the holiness once found - which is a shame. There are Orthodox monks that spend their time making music condemning Israel and all sort of non prayer related things. But I am not saying that as if Catholic Monastics are perfect either just that reality does not always match the ideal.

The understanding that I posted was the common understanding of monasticism in Christianity for nearly 1200 years. It is sad that the wells of the Holy Spirit are drying up throughout the world, even in the holy monasteries. However, God has revealed to us that there will be a great flourishing of the true Orthodox Faith before the end of the age. We should pray for this day to quickly arrive.

I would like you take on the story I related about the Monk telling the man to leave his family. What would you say to him?

Well, I would have to know the details of the situation before I revealed my thoughts about it. Often a charismatic elder will be revealed something that they should tell a person. I’m not sure if this was a case of this occurrence of not. However, what is clear is that Orthodox monastics don’t devalue marriage and sexuality nor try to force people to leave their spouses and children. Such things are condemned in Orthodoxy. Anyone who attempts to do such a thing is terribly wrong.

God bless,

Adam

 

[zografou]

• it is a secular concept of beeing good and charitable - christians should not be good in a secular sennse !

Kyrie Eleison! That statement certainly falls far from the mark!

For the sake of brevity as to how we as believers and followers of Christ should see and treat our neighbor…what lesson did our Lord teach in the parable of the Good Samaritan?

…The monastic example of Saint Basil was secular?

Kyrie Eleison!

 

[bogoljub]

Hi Adam,

I don’t know where you got the idea that Jesus led a life of complete seperation (in the monastic sense) for 30 years. He was most likely a carpenter. There is no biblical or patristic evidence of him seperating himself - we know of 40 days and nights nothing more. As for Mary and the temple it is a pious tradition at best. The record (scripture) is silent on the matter. The only record we do have records her life just before and after as a married woman and mother, not an ascetic. Apocryphal accounts from later centuries can be appreciated but not trusted as factual like the gospels.

God bless !

He got that idea from exact knowledge of Scripture and Patristic writing ! Christ often seperated himself not only for 40 days - do u really not know the Scripture ?

Should we also mention St. John the Baptist or the Apostels - like the great Paul is he not a great monastic ?

That the Theotokos entered into the Temple with about 3 years is not a pious Tradition it belongs to the Doctrine of the orthodox church through ancient patristic evidence !

And beside this I think the life in the House of St. Joseph the Betrophed was a strict monastic one- through prayer, fasting, obedience, virginity,protstrations, work…

I have told u befor that we all should life an ascetic live - not only monstics, even when u are married - the goal is the same !

For example St.Anna and St. Joachim belong to greatest Saints but they were married ! They reached the goal of “monsticism” to be united with God !

When u are interested in orthodox monasticism than u should go directly to Mount Athos and not listen what the “News” are saying !

The Liturgies, the Services,the icons, the prayers, the prostrations, the chants,…the Agrypnias wich can take 13 hours, the conversation with living Saints, the whole “frame” will bring you in contact with God for sure.

I often stayed in different orthodox Monasteries, not everyone is a Saint but u can for sure meat some great Elders and Saints !

You have to experience Monasticism, you will not understand it from reading books- taste and see how good is the Lord !

I was once in a Benedictine monastery and it was quiete different from the orthodox ! I could nót see any form of ascesis or Praktice and Theorie - I could not discover the ancient form of monasticism.

In CHRIST

 

[zografou]

St. Gregory the Theologian says the following about this: “It is good to theologize about God, but it is better to purify yourself from your passions for the sake of God.”

“That which is good, ceases to be good when not done in a good way.” St. Gregory the Theologian

 

[bogoljub]

Kyrie Eleison! That statement certainly falls far from the mark!

For the sake of brevity as to how we as believers and followers of Christ should see and treat our neighbor…what lesson did our Lord teach in the parable of the Good Samaritan?

…The monastic example of Saint Basil was secular?

Kyrie Eleison!

God bless !

Please befor jumping on me read exactly what wrote !

I wrote about a secular concept of Charity not of Charity itself.

I have written once when u read the Gospel ( and of course all other Scriptures) exactly you will see that Christ “only” came to unite us with God again and to save us - he told us how we can reach that state and gave us a programm !

The Goal is the UNION with God in the 3 fold way of
PURIFICATION
ENLIGHTMENT
UNION or THEOSIS

and the programm is :

The Church Services with the Mysteries of Christ
prayer,ascesis, fasting,chanting, reading and studing the word of God, prostration, and all kinds of good deeds like helping others, giving alms, charity, love…but they are only the programm and not the goal !!! The monks lifes this programm permanently we only for some time on Sundays …

The whole Church is like a spiritual Hospital where our spiritual illnesses are cured ! The priest are like Doctors and in confession we show them our wounds and they gave us medicine and heal us.

There is a great difference between Moral/ Ethic and the Holy Christian Church ! To be charitable or to be good is not the goal of the christian live.

In CHRIST

 

[zografou]

I might mention one thing. “Monasticism” is an English word; thus a “Latin” world word. Since it’s our language and our institution, and we really mean our word to apply to our institution as we understand it, and since you wish to understand the word in a different sense than its proper sense as an English word, perhaps you should only use the Greek word for your conception of it. Then you’ll be right.

That’s the real problem here. You want to impose a Greek meaning on an English word that does not mean what you want to think it means. All that does is cause dissention. Use the Greek word.

Dear Ridgerunner,
??? Perhaps you would do well to look up the word monastery, monastic, monasticism in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

For brevity’s sake, check it out in an infallible source: www.newadvent.org/cathen/10459a.htm

-an Orthodox poster (Greek by birth and Tradition)

 

[Ridgerunner]

Dear Ridgerunner,
??? Perhaps you would do well to look up the word monastery, monastic, monasticism in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

For brevity’s sake, check it out in an infallible source: www.newadvent.org/cathen/10459a.htm

-an Orthodox poster (Greek by birth and Tradition)

Oh, I have! None, and certainly not New Advent, support your proposition that the term “monasticism” properly applies only the Greek Orthodox form. Quite the contrary! Perhaps you did not read enough to read the last sentence of the page you cited. Nor did you look at the inclusion of Benedictines within its listing of monastic orders.

“Infallible”??? New Advent would never claim to infallibility, though it would claim to be an authoritative source.

Again, if you want to use a word that means ONLY the EO concept of it, use the Greek word meaning that; not the English word that means something clearly including the Catholic monastic variations. It’s absurd to use an English word and claim that it properly means something that it doesn’t mean. I would not redefine your Greek words and try to persuade you they mean something they don’t mean.

 

[Ridgerunner]

God bless !

Do we have different religons ? I thaught we are both christians ?

I think u do not really know the history of the christian monastic way ?

IN CHRIST

Of course we have different religions…from your point of view anyway. Do you recognize Catholic sacraments as valid? No, you do not. It is clear from that alone that you do not consider Orthodoxy and Catholicism to be the same religion.

Absolutely, we are both Christians. So are Baptists and, in a way, so are Mormons. But that does not mean we have the same religion. If, as Mormons believe, a Mormon can become a God, then Mormons might be Christians in a manner of speaking, but they are definitely not of the same religion as am I.

I might not know the history of Christian monasticism as well as you, but I’m not unfamiliar with it. But it really isn’t a matter of knowing the history, is it? As a Catholic, I believe Church institutions can, and should develop to meet the spiritual needs of mankind. As an Orthodox, you believe Church institutions cannot legitimately change or adapt beyond an ancient Church council. Your belief about that constrains your concept of monasticism, whereas mine does not. That is the reason why the English word “monasticism” means something different from the meaning you attribute to it. It’s a western word. That is also the reason why you should use a word for your concept of it that actually corresponds to your concept. Likely there is a Greek word that actually fits, as I have said.

 

[zografou]

Thank ou Ridgerunner for your reply. However, I would like to point out that my previous reply solely referred to the portion of your statement that is highlighted in bold, “Monasticism” is an **English **word; thus a “Latin” world word. Since it’s our language and our institution, and we really mean our word to apply to our institution as we understand it, and since you wish to understand the word in a different sense than its proper sense as an English word, perhaps you should only use the Greek word for your conception of it. Then you’ll be right.

That’s the real problem here.** You want to impose a Greek meaning on an English word that does not mean what you want to think it means. All that does is cause dissention. Use the Greek word.**"

My point was that the English word, monasticism is the English translation of a Greek word; and suggested you look it up.
My point was that when the word monasticism was first used, it was a Greek word…English was not a language and would not be a language for centuries! End of my point.

Can you site one reference that even indicates monasticism is a word of English origin??

If you would kindly read my replies to bogoljub, you may note that I did not defend nor commend his opinions…

…It is so sad that you feel the need to read something in my statement that was neither stated nor inferred…

Where in my statement did I say the things you so angrily accuse me?

Kindly show me where I said only Orthodox Monasticism is the only monasticism and Catholic monasticism is excluded, so that I may repent!

By the way, St. Benedict who founded the Benedictine order of monasticism, is also reveared as a saint in the Orthodox Church.

I understand if you prefer to understand what you want… but I shall seek to understand perfection in Truth.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My point was that the English word, monasticism is the English translation of a Greek word; and suggested you look it up.
My point was that when the word monasticism was first used, it was a Greek word…English was not a language and would not be a language for centuries! End of my point.

Can you site one reference that even indicates monasticism is a word of English origin??

If you would kindly read my replies to bogoljub, you may note that I did not defend nor commend his opinions…

Where in my statement did I say the things you so angrily accuse me?

Kindly show me where I said only Orthodox Monasticism is the only monasticism and Catholic monasticism is excluded, so that I may repent!

By the way, St. Benedict who founded the Benedictine order of monasticism, is also reveared as a saint in the Orthodox Church.

I understand if you prefer to understand what you want… but I shall seek to understand perfection in Truth.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstandings. If I accused you of things Bogoljub said, and if you did not share them, I truly do apologize.

You misunderstand if you think I was angry. I was not. But you seemed to be saying we are of the same religion. Perhaps I made a wrong assumption. IF you believe Catholic sacraments are valid, then you can say we are of the same religion. If you don’t believe they are valid, then you can’t legitimately say that. I have never, on this forum seen an EO say Catholic sacraments are valid, and have seen many say they are not. My point was, and not said angrily, that if you do not believe they are valid, then from your point of view, you and I are not of the same religion. Would you care to clarify? It would truly be interesting to meet an Orthodox who believes Catholic sacraments are valid.

Possibly you and Bogoljub do not share the same opinion about western monasticism. If you accept that, e.g., the Benedictines may legitimately be referred to as a monastic order, then you and I have no argument.

If we do not, then it might serve no purpose to say the following, but I do want to clarify something. I am not sure English is your first language. I don’t say that unkindly, I am simply explaining why I am saying the following. It makes no difference in English whether the English word “monasticism” has a Greek root or not. English is full of words adapted from virtually every language on earth. Sometimes those words change a bit in English usage to fit English language needs and concepts. Nevertheless, it is profoundly western in understanding of words and its orientation in the meanings assigned to words. It is difficult to learn well, because it has many, many ways of saying things that are similar but just a bit different, and tends to make those differences by the choice of words that may seem to mean the very same thing, but don’t quite do so, particularly if the context is changed. I make my living crafting words; have a profound respect for the language, and perhaps I am a bit oversensitive to the use of particular words when they don’t really fit.

 

[paradoxy]

These are the exact objections to Orthodox monasticism and monasticism in general I got from a Protestant friend. (All the Catholics I’ve talked to on the subject seemed to have nothing but respect for Orthodox monasticism.):

. It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static. Whereas most of Catholic monasticism has be community involved and active. They were the missionaries of centuries gone by, such as in Ireland. Orthodox monastics seem to be withdrawn from the world - sort of hidden.

Why hide your lamp under a basket? Light is meant to shine into a dark world, no?

I honestly don’t understand the idea of complete seperation - this is certainly not what Christ or the Apostles did. To be honest I think it creates some downright strange ideas. .

It seems to me that if someone is going to dedicate their lives to Christ they should try to live like Him, for others and not inner focused.

oh please!!! There have been no objections. Your anti-Catholic buddy can’t even talk about the subject without equating Catholic monks to communists and satanists. And acts of charity as evil. Catholics have done nothing but try and deflect the bigotry. Stop playing the victim and furthering insulting us by saying we sound Protestant.

I was also referring to another thread on this board where the Holy Tradition was at times reduced to culture, art, or man-made traditions.

I have yet to insult Catholicism on these boards. This was not my intention. I was genuinely baffled by these. FWIW, my theory is that, since we have to discuss Orthodoxy among Non-Catholic religions, the surroundings are influencing the discourse.

 

[bogoljub]

Of course we have different religions…from your point of view anyway. Do you recognize Catholic sacraments as valid? No, you do not. It is clear from that alone that you do not consider Orthodoxy and Catholicism to be the same religion.

Absolutely, we are both Christians. So are Baptists and, in a way, so are Mormons. But that does not mean we have the same religion. If, as Mormons believe, a Mormon can become a God, then Mormons might be Christians in a manner of speaking, but they are definitely not of the same religion as am I.

I might not know the history of Christian monasticism as well as you, but I’m not unfamiliar with it. But it really isn’t a matter of knowing the history, is it? As a Catholic, I believe Church institutions can, and should develop to meet the spiritual needs of mankind. As an Orthodox, you believe Church institutions cannot legitimately change or adapt beyond an ancient Church council. Your belief about that constrains your concept of monasticism, whereas mine does not. That is the reason why the English word “monasticism” means something different from the meaning you attribute to it. It’s a western word. That is also the reason why you should use a word for your concept of it that actually corresponds to your concept. Likely there is a Greek word that actually fits, as I have said.

God bless!

I would say we have the same religion but not the same confession, there is difference !

When I was speaking of monastic History -beacuse to look what was the early monasticm like, what was the essence and the goal of ? Because on this Basis ( wich we share ) we can speak about the true meaining of it !

Like I have said St. Benedict of Nursia is a great orthodox monastic father and his rule/typicon is orthodox -absolute. Like other great monastic western Saints and their rules.

The problem is, I doubt if the todays catholic Benedictines life according to that rule ? ( of course there are exceptions).

If u are interested let us look to the rule and than let us see if the origianl monastic spirit can be found in rcc Benedict monasteries ?

And of course orthodox monastics also were charitable and helped the poor the sick, thte widows, the lepers…but they never forgot the real goal !
Did not Christ say : Everyone who collects without me is collecting in vain. So even if we do go deeds without the true christian meaning they are in vain !

For example one of my favorite books about prayer is written by benedictine monk who wants to bring back the origianl monastic/patristic spirit - his works are great !

Gabriel Bunge:
Das persönliche Gebet nach der Überlieferung der HL. Väter !
The private prayer accordind to the Tradition of the Hl Fathers.

He as rcc benedictine monk says the same as we orthodox, that there is a change of the true spirit of monasiticm, he writes about the physical form of prayer -to stand, to bow, to make prostrations, how to make the sign of the cross, that christians always pryes facing east, about fasting rules…icons…chantings, pslmody, church services…and that monasticim in the orginal meaning was God and liturgical/ eucharistical centered and not only to serve the needy !

He is a great monk with great knowlegde and wisdom for me even when he is rcc. I have told u we orthodox are not anti-catholic or a sort of eastern/byzantine protestants but we want to keep the old faith and tradition, we want to be obedient to the Fathers and Canons - nothing more.

IN CHRIST

BTW he also wrote an excellent book about the Trinity Icon of Rubljov and also others about Evagrius ponticus !

 

[peary]

In reading about monks in both traditions it strikes me how different both are. It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static. Whereas most of Catholic monasticism has be community involved and active. They were the missionaries of centuries gone by, such as in Ireland. Orthodox monastics seem to be withdrawn from the world - sort of hidden.

I am curious as to why this is.

Mel

Probably the culture and cultural settings in which they thrived.

 

[Melchior]

Kyrie Eleison! That statement certainly falls far from the mark!

For the sake of brevity as to how we as believers and followers of Christ should see and treat our neighbor…what lesson did our Lord teach in the parable of the Good Samaritan?

…The monastic example of Saint Basil was secular?

Kyrie Eleison!

You are a breath of fresh air, Zografou!

 

[Ridgerunner]

God bless!

I would say we have the same religion but not the same confession, there is difference !

The problem is, I doubt if the todays catholic Benedictines life according to that rule ? ( of course there are exceptions).

If u are interested let us look to the rule and than let us see if the origianl monastic spirit can be found in rcc Benedict monasteries ?

He is a great monk with great knowlegde and wisdom for me even when he is rcc. I have told u we orthodox are not anti-catholic or a sort of eastern/byzantine protestants

It is good to hear you say you, an Orthodox, are not anti-Catholic. I have to disclose to you that I sometimes went to the old forum and all I ever saw from EO was anti-Catholicism. I am willing to stipulate that you do not share their views.

I maintain that the distinction between “religion” and the modern use of the word “confession” is a distinction without difference. At best, “confession” is used as a polite euphemism to denote that there is a sort of vague unity of sentiment, where no real unity exists. At worst, it is an expression of denominational relativism.

A Catholic can legitimately say Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the same “religion” because the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox sacraments. Orthodox cannot legitimately say the same, because the Orthodox Church(es) do not recognize the validity of Catholic sacraments. If you believe our sacraments are as much in vain as you believe Hindu bathing in the Ganges to remove sin is in vain, then, from your standpoint, Catholicism is not the same religion as Orthodoxy, and you should not try to put a sugar coating on it. Knowing the bitter pill lies beneath the sugar, I decline to take it.

I do not enter into the disagreements that may exist among families other than my own. Similarly, I am not interested in hearing you try to score debating points by citing this errant Catholic group or that. I might, within my family, be critical of my brother. But I will not listen to someone outside my family criticizing my brother to me. Such issues are “within the family”, and it is not your family. You would not appreciate it if I entered into the latest controversy between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople, or if I took the part of the latter in the dispute with the monks of Mt. Athos. Those are your family issues, not mine.

You have every right, if you wish to do it, to say all day long that Catholicism is heretical, errant and wrong, just as a Jehovah’s Witness has that right. But you cannot simultaneously claim some sort of unity and do it. Perhaps others on here want to hear that, but I don’t. What I think sometimes EO do not understand is that Catholics do think of Orthodoxy as a sister Church, however little Orthodoxy recriprocates it. I have read some of the writings of the Mt. Athos monks about Catholicism, so you cannot persuade me I’m wrong about that. If you go into a critique of Catholic institutions, as you seem to want to do, I will be tempted to reciprocate in kind. That, I do not want to do. So I’ll end it here.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static.**

Your saying this shows how much you know about the role Orthodox monks have played in evangelizing Alaska and Russia and Eastern Europe generally.

In other words, nothing.