Catholic vs. Orthodox Monasticism

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It is good to hear you say you, an Orthodox, are not anti-Catholic. I have to disclose to you that I sometimes went to the old forum and all I ever saw from EO was anti-Catholicism. I am willing to stipulate that you do not share their views.

I maintain that the distinction between “religion” and the modern use of the word “confession” is a distinction without difference. At best, “confession” is used as a polite euphemism to denote that there is a sort of vague unity of sentiment, where no real unity exists. At worst, it is an expression of denominational relativism.

A Catholic can legitimately say Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the same “religion” because the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox sacraments. Orthodox cannot legitimately say the same, because the Orthodox Church(es) do not recognize the validity of Catholic sacraments. If you believe our sacraments are as much in vain as you believe Hindu bathing in the Ganges to remove sin is in vain, then, from your standpoint, Catholicism is not the same religion as Orthodoxy, and you should not try to put a sugar coating on it. Knowing the bitter pill lies beneath the sugar, I decline to take it.

I do not enter into the disagreements that may exist among families other than my own. Similarly, I am not interested in hearing you try to score debating points by citing this errant Catholic group or that. I might, within my family, be critical of my brother. But I will not listen to someone outside my family criticizing my brother to me. Such issues are “within the family”, and it is not your family. You would not appreciate it if I entered into the latest controversy between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople, or if I took the part of the latter in the dispute with the monks of Mt. Athos. Those are your family issues, not mine.

You have every right, if you wish to do it, to say all day long that Catholicism is heretical, errant and wrong, just as a Jehovah’s Witness has that right. But you cannot simultaneously claim some sort of unity and do it. Perhaps others on here want to hear that, but I don’t. What I think sometimes EO do not understand is that Catholics do think of Orthodoxy as a sister Church, however little Orthodoxy recriprocates it. I have read some of the writings of the Mt. Athos monks about Catholicism, so you cannot persuade me I’m wrong about that. If you go into a critique of Catholic institutions, as you seem to want to do, I will be tempted to reciprocate in kind. That, I do not want to do. So I’ll end it here.
God bless!

Here we in w europe we differ between religion and confession !
We say religions are Hinduism, Buddhsim, Islam, Christianity, Jewish…

But in these Religions are different cofessions like Christianity :
Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant,…

So it is rigth so say we have the same religions ( christianity) but not the same confession ( u are rcc- I am orthodox).

This was what I meant - we differ it here in that way.

When we want to stay close to the faith of old/ the orthodox faith- and are against innovation and change…you interprete this as anti-catholic ! But this is a wrong interpretation -our intension is not to be against catholicism but to be against every alteration of Holy Faith !

I tried to show that also catholics have the same opinion that there is break with Tradition ! You can try to deny it but it remains a fact - forgive me but it is true.

We do not speak here about different opinions we speak about facts !!

But let us look what the Monastic Fathers say and than we can compare wich “way” of monasticism is in the original way.

In CHRIST
 
God bless !

From the Apophtegmatha:
  1. Abba Arsenius
At this time Abba Arsenius was still living in the royal palace. He made this prayer to God: “Lord, lead me on the way to salvation.” A voice replied: "Arsenius, flee far from men and you will be saved."

Arsenius went away from men. He lived alone. He began repeating this same prayer: “Lord lead me on the way to salvation.” He heard a voice. It said to him: "Arsenius, flee, be silent, stay quiet. These are the roots of a sinless life."
  1. Abba Arsenius
Abba Mark said to Abba Arsenius: “Why are you leaving us?”

The abba replied: "Ah, I love you. God knows! But I cannot live with men. Millions and millions of angels have only one desire; men have many. That is why I cannot leave God in order to come and be with men."
  1. Abba Antony
Again, Abba Antony said: "When fish stay too long out of water they die. It is the same for monks. When they spend their time with people of the world, or otherwise stay a long time out of their cells, they lose the deep peace of the heart.

Come, let us do the same as the fishes. They go back quickly into the sea. Let us then go quickly back to our cells so as not to forget our inner vigilance."
  1. Abba Agathon
The brothers asked Abba Agathon: “Which of all the good actions is the one hardest to do?” He replied: "With respect,** I think it is prayer. Yes, each time you want to pray your enemies want to stop you doing so. I**ndeed, they know there is only one way of stopping you going to God: to turn you away from prayer. When you begin some good thing, whatever it is, if you go on courageously you will find peace. But with prayer, you have to fight on with your enemies until death."
  1. Abba Sisoes
It was said of Abba Sisoes that when he was near death, the Fathers being round him, his face shone like the sun. And he said to them: “Abba Antony is coming.” And after a little while he said: “The choir of prophets is coming.” And again his face shone even more bright and he said: “The choir of Apostles is coming.” And his face shone more brightly still and he seemed to be conversing with someone. And the old men asked him: “Who are you talking to, Father?” He said: “Here are some angels come for me and** I am begging them to let me do a little penance.” The old men said to him: "You have no need of penance, Father! " But the old man said: “Truly I feel I have hardly begun**.” And all around recognised that he was perfect. And once again his face became suddenly like the sun and all were seized with fear. He said to them: “See, the Lord is coming!” And immediately he gave up his spirit. Then there was a lightening flash and a sweet scent filled the whole house.

In CHRIST
 
** It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static.**

Your saying this shows how much you know about the role Orthodox monks have played in evangelizing Alaska and Russia and Eastern Europe generally.

In other words, nothing.
St. Herman was one guy. Eastern Europe was evangelized by those in communion with Rome so that is very debatable. I don’t know enough about Russia to comment. But I have based most of my opinion on current practice and the last several centuries and Athos in general. Save St. Herman what communities have been about Evangelism in a similar manner?
 
St. Herman was one guy. Eastern Europe was evangelized by those in communion with Rome so that is very debatable. I don’t know enough about Russia to comment. But I have based most of my opinion on current practice and the last several centuries and Athos in general. Save St. Herman what communities have been about Evangelism in a similar manner?
God bless !

You err in your post !
  1. Like I have shown the goal of christian monasticism is not for missionary ,
  2. You forgot all the other orthodox missionaries like in our times in Africa- whole cities are converting like in Zaire,…the great Missionary monk from mount athos Blessed Elder Cosmas Apostel to Zaire !
Or the Mission in Japan, China, Haiti, Madagascar, I know some orthodox from Philippins, New Zealand…and what is with the mission in the USA like Father Seraphim Rose, or Elder Ephraim from Mount Athos- he build 16 Monasteries in Usa, and the Mission in Europe ?

Who converted the Sibirians ? Who brought the christian faith to the Slavs ?

I think you should re- think your opinion !

IN CHRIST
 
God bless!

When we want to stay close to the faith of old/ the orthodox faith- and are against innovation and change…you interprete this as anti-catholic ! But this is a wrong interpretation -our intension is not to be against catholicism but to be against every alteration of Holy Faith !

I tried to show that also catholics have the same opinion that there is break with Tradition ! You can try to deny it but it remains a fact - forgive me but it is true.

But let us look what the Monastic Fathers say and than we can compare wich “way” of monasticism is in the original way.

In CHRIST
Nobody has a problem with Orthodox staying close to “the faith of old” or being against innovation and change. I do not interpret that as anti-Catholic. What I do interpret as anti-Catholic are statements like “better Turk than Roman”, calling the Pope a heretic, alleging (wrongly) that the Catholic Church has murdered millions of Orthodox, saying the Catholic Church was in league with Nazism, and the kinds of things the monks of Mt. Athos routinely say about the Catholic Church. You can have your religion and revere it, and nobody is going to give you a bad time over that. But when Orthodox go out of their way to attack the Catholic Church, particularly in front of Catholics, that’s anti-Catholicism to me. Anybody who grew up with it like I did knows it when he sees it, and has had about as much of it as he wants for a lifetime. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. I’m not accusing you of those things personally, but the old forum was almost nothing but that kind of thing.

You might notice that nobody, and certainly not I, took you up on your invitation to compare monasticism in the West and in the East. But you did it anyway, because you just couldn’t keep from unfavorably comparing Catholicism to Orthodoxy, whether anybody wanted to hear it or not. That’s not “staying close to the old faith”. That’s just picking a fight.

And so what if, say, some Western monastic order is different from some Eastern order that you know about? So what if one isn’t the same way as monastic orders were in Constantinople in the Third Century? People rode around on donkeys then, too, and died of infections that are easily curable now, but it doesn’t mean we have to live that way just because they did.

As I explained to you before, Catholics are taught to revere Orthodoxy, not to focus on its flaws. I’m not going to succumb to the temptation to criticize Orthodoxy, though I certainly could. This is a Catholic site, and you are a guest here. No one has invited you to attack Catholicism.

Of course some Catholics think there is a break with tradition. Whenever anything changes, there are always those who have problems with it. But it’s not the same thing as “breaking with tradition” the way you understand it. Not by a long way. With Catholics, that is a squabble within the family at worst. What you mean by breaking with tradition is telling Catholics they’re not in the family at all.
 
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