Catholic vs. Protestant Interpretation

[Marc_Anthony]

Salve,

I’m debating a PRotestant over a particular issue. I know Catholics do not believe that all non-Catholics go to Hell; my explanation was that somebody who honestly seeked God and followed Jesus’s teachings even without realizing it would still get to “know” Jesus, they just wouldn’t realize it. The Protestant supported that this wasn’t at all supported by Scripture and gave a ton of verses supporting her point of view. I have to admit, it seemed pretty convincing. Here’s a list, with her interpretations of the verses:

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

1 Thessalonians 1:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 1:8-9
Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Psalm 37:39
The salvation of the righteous is from the LORD; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble.

Romans 8:8-9
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Romans 10:1-4…9-14
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. … That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Isaiah 45:20 … 22
“Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. … Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. [note: Faith in what? Christ Jesus. No other answer makes sense] And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to(AE) the covenants of promise,(AF) having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek your statutes.

Ezekiel 3:18
If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Galatians 2:15-16
“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

The Protestant especially emphasized Romans 10:8-14 as a reason that you absolutely HAVE to be Christian to be saved.

As a Catholic, how exactly do I rebut this? It’d help too if you use Scripture.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Bible_Reader]

This is one of the central points of discussion in Vatican II, culminating in Lumen Gentium.

A summary is found in CCC 847:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

The fuller discussion from Lumen Gentium 16:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Some Biblical references:

1 Tim 2:3-4
This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

(Regarding Jews) Rom 9:4
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;

*(Regarding Jews) *Rom 11:28-29
as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Moscati]

Hm . . .

The Catholic position is does not suggest that anyone is saved apart from Christ and His Church. The question is more whether or not faith in Christ and unity with the Church must be explicit, and the role “invincible ignorance”.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” CCC 846

You could tell your friend that you actually believe the only way she will be saved is via the Catholic Church (just like anyone else–Muslims, agnostics, etc). But it might not further the conversation.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Hm . . .

The Catholic position is does not suggest that anyone is saved apart from Christ and His Church. The question is more whether or not faith in Christ and unity with the Church must be explicit, and the role “invincible ignorance”.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” CCC 846

You could tell your friend that you actually believe the only way she will be saved is via the Catholic Church (just like anyone else–Muslims, agnostics, etc). But it might not further the conversation.

I DID say that-she responded that you need people to evangelize and you needed to know Jesus and accept Him as Savior, and gave several of these verses as evidence.

 

[kepha1]

Salve,

I’m debating a PRotestant over a particular issue. I know Catholics do not believe that all non-Catholics go to Hell; my explanation was that somebody who honestly seeked God and followed Jesus’s teachings even without realizing it would still get to “know” Jesus, they just wouldn’t realize it. The Protestant supported that this wasn’t at all supported by Scripture and gave a ton of verses supporting her point of view. I have to admit, it seemed pretty convincing. Here’s a list, with her interpretations of the verses:

I would first ask if he thinks Catholics can be saved only on the grounds that such “saved” Catholics meet the criteria set by his particular faith tradition. The most likely response is yes, some Catholics are saved, then the grounds for that salvation needs to be determined. If the response is “Catholics are not saved”, you should abandon the debate.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

This verse is about Baptism. It does not mean that each subordinate member of YOUR HOUSEHOLD must be a believer to be saved. One just has to be a member of that household (such as children and infants) who depend on the faith of those to whom the household belongs to.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Also, nowhere in Scripture is “spirit” symbolic, and regarding Baptism, nowhere in Scripture is water separated from spirit.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

 

[kepha1]

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
The Church knows that this Gospel of life, which she has received from her Lord, 1 has a profound and persuasive echo in the heart of every person-believer and non-believer alike-because it marvellously fulfils all the heart’s expectations while infinitely surpassing them. Even in the midst of difficulties and uncertainties, every person sincerely open to truth and goodness can, by the light of reason and the hidden action of grace, come to recognize in the natural law written in the heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15) the sacred value of human life from its very beginning until its end, and can affirm the right of every human being to have this primary good respected to the highest degree. Upon the recognition of this right, every human community and the political community itself are founded.
In a special way, believers in Christ must defend and promote this right, aware as they are of the wonderful truth recalled by the Second Vatican Council: “By his incarnation the Son of God has united himself in some fashion with every human being”.2 This saving event reveals to humanity not only the boundless love of God who “so loved the world that he gave his only Son” (Jn 3:16), but also the incomparable value of every human person.
The Church, faithfully contemplating the mystery of the Redemption, acknowledges this value with ever new wonder.3 She feels called to proclaim to the people of all times this “Gospel”, the source of invincible hope and true joy for every period of history. The Gospel of God’s love for man, the Gospel of the dignity of the person and the Gospel of life are a single and indivisible Gospel.
**
Jesus didn’t die just for Christians.

 

[kepha1]

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith. [note: Faith in what? Christ Jesus. No other answer makes sense] And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to(AE) the covenants of promise,(AF) having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

If there was ever a favorite passage for a Protestant to spring upon a Catholic it would undoubtedly be Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” What should a Catholic do when they see a passage that so clearly removes works from the salvation equation and places the emphasis entirely on faith? Most Catholics would immediately counter with James 2:24, without realizing their biggest ally is in Ephesians 2 itself. sites.google.com/site/catholicdefense/eph2

 

[dmar198]

Mark 16:16

This is about those who are evangelized and reject the Gospel. Those who aren’t evangelized and who never have the opportunity to accept the Gospel are not addressed by this.

Acts 16:31
John 3:16-17
2 Thessalonians 2:13

Believing in Jesus saves you if you’ve heard of Him. What about those who haven’t? These passages do not address that question; how much less do they
answer it negatively!

1 Thessalonians 1:9

He has given us salvation through Jesus. Who says He can’t also give salvation to some who have never heard of Jesus?

1 Peter 1:8-9

This again speaks of those who HAVE heard of Jesus. It says nothing about those who have not.

Psalm 37:39

The same can be said of those who have not heard of Jesus. They are saved by Him even though they have not heard of Him.

Romans 8:8-9

This does not say that un-evangelized people can’t be saved. Although they are “in the flesh” by nature, they can be saved by grace from that, and renewed in the Spirit, and MADE pleasing to God, without ever knowing that it is Jesus Who does this for them.

Romans 10:1-4…9-14

Jews can be saved by accepting the Lord Jesus, that is true. But if they have not heard of Him, they can be saved by Him anyways. This does not deny that; it simply speaks of those who CAN believe in Him because they HAVE heard of Him.

Isaiah 45:20 … 22
"Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. … Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Idols can’t save those who worship them, but God can.

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

If anyone non-Christian is saved, that salvation is from Christ alone, no one else.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

This speaks of those who DO know Him, not of those who DON’T.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. [note: Faith in what? Christ Jesus. No other answer makes sense] And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to(AE) the covenants of promise,(AF) having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

This speaks of those who have KNOWN Christ, not of those who have not.

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek your statutes.

Quite true. Those who do not know Christ and are wicked will not be saved. Those who are RIGHTEOUS yet do not know Christ, though, can be saved.

Ezekiel 3:18
If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Again, this speaks of the wicked, not of those among the pagans that are made righteous by grace.

Galatians 2:15-16
“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

Those who have not known Christ will not be justified by their efforts, but they can be justified by God’s grace.

The Protestant especially emphasized Romans 10:8-14 as a reason that you absolutely HAVE to be Christian to be saved.

But it doesn’t say that. It simply says that those who believe will be saved, without denying that people who haven’t had the opportunity to believe can also be saved.

As a Catholic, how exactly do I rebut this? It’d help too if you use Scripture.

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, `We see,’ your guilt remains.

John 15:22-24
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.

Acts 10:34-35
Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Romans 2:14-16
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Thanks for all the responses, they’ve helped a lot!

 

[PJM]

=Marc Anthony; Salve,

I’m debating a PRotestant over a particular issue. I know Catholics do not believe that all non-Catholics go to Hell; my explanation was that somebody who honestly seeked God and followed Jesus’s teachings even without realizing it would still get to “know” Jesus, they just wouldn’t realize it. The Protestant supported that this wasn’t at all supported by Scripture and gave a ton of verses supporting her point of view. I have to admit, it seemed pretty convincing. Here’s a list, with her interpretations of the verses:

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Thanks a lot!

Hi, there if far to much information here to comment on each set of verses, so lets just take John 3, and try to go from there.

The issue here obviously is one of “PARTIAL TRUTH” which is gravely wrong. No one part of the Bible can deny or contradict another part of the Bible [A House devided against itself cannot stand. **Matt. 12:25

Compare John 3:16-17 to John 3:5 and John 3: 36

**v.5 John.3: 5 **"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

v. 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; **he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. **

So here we see in the same Book, and the same chapter , with the same God placing AT LEAST TWO ADDITIONAL requiremets for salvation.

Here’s another example.

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good.** If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

Each verse must be viewed in light of the ENTIRE MESSAGE, often he entire Bible, in order to discern thee SINGULAR truth.

Thanks for asking,

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Poco]

I DID say that-she responded that you need people to evangelize and you needed to know Jesus and accept Him as Savior, and gave several of these verses as evidence.

So, does she also believe that those who lived and died before the coming of the Christ have no chance of getting into Heaven? Does she also believe those who lived after the coming of Christ, but died before being to be baptised or hear His Word have no chance of getting to Heaven? Does she not believe God loves all his children and will give all a chance to get to Heaven?

Looks like a serious misinterpretation of Scripture to me. Once again, more evidence for the absolute need for a Magisterium, IMHO!