Catholic vs Protestant Spirituality: Lets compare faith walks

[Mishakel]

Ok now I’m just curious if you believe a crucifix grants some part of salvation.

 

[PetraG]

When I think about my friends who left the Catholic Church and are now deeply faithful but outside the Church, I’d say that they left while in a place where they could not (or sometimes simply did not) connect to God while in the Church (for whatever reason) and then somewhere along their path in life found a way to connect to Our Lord by way of some faith community that was not Catholic.

Outside the Church, there is no salvation, but the Holy Spirit is not confined. The graces that flow through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are not utterly denied to those who aren’t formally connected to the Catholic Church. The normal way to have deep and regular contact with these graces is to be in full communion with the Church, this is true, but that doesn’t mean God does not hear those who call to Him from elsewhere. No, sometimes those who have far less to rely on make far more of what they are given than those of us who have every grace offered to us at every turn.

As for the Crucifix, I always used it in my catechism classes to teach this: God does not make us suffer, but if we are faithful, God can take the worst thing that ever happened and transform it into the best thing that ever happened. Our Lord gave us that way, that assurance that no evil–not even death!–can force its way between us and everlasting life.

 

[Gab123]

I’m trying to find something from two of the biggest Protestant Christian Denominations in the world and their teachings on contraception prior to the early 1900’s.

Again, they had no position, being that the issue itself was not even discussed. It’s like trying to find their stance on gay marriage prior to the early 1900s.

 

[Gab123]

Ok now I’m just curious if you believe a crucifix grants some part of salvation.

As Paul stated, We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles-1 Cor. 1:23

Thus Christianity without the cross is a counterfeit Christianity. As for the crucifix itself, it is a reminder of the horror of sin, proof of God’s love for us, and a reminder to us of what Jesus said:

“whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Mtt. 10:38
“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Mtt. 16:24
Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. -Lk 14:27

Jesus picked up His cross and carried it to Golgotha to be crucified and to die upon it as an atonement for our sins for our salvation. Likewise, we too have to crucify our passions and die to self if we hope to be resurrected with Christ. Through Christ our suffering becomes redemptive. Thus a Christianity that shuns the cross, and teaches against the use of a crucifix is simply the devil whispering through them, a devil who is afraid of the crucifix and what it symbolizes, which is at the core of authentic Christian spirituality…

 

[Hodos]

When I was Lutheran, I saw no spirituality. No interior life. Everything felt dry to me; things just felt off and weird. My basic point being: I feel in Protestantism that there’s too much emphasis on the mind; not the heart.

That is interesting because I have exactly the opposite experience. When I have attended mass in the past I find it difficult to engage in the spiritual disciplines which have built up my faith and have helped to inculcate Christian virtues into my own life. I actually found some of the practices you mentioned in your OP to be distracting from my faith walk.

Perhaps, the efficacy of what God has done for us is not based on my or your subjective experience but on God’s promise offered to us through Christ. That being said, I would argue that Lutheran theology does not eliminate spiritual disciplines but seeks to use them in the manner in which they were originally intended and keep its focus on Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith. If you have specific questions though regarding certain spiritual disciplines I am happy to discuss.

 

[Gab123]

said, I would argue that Lutheran theology does not eliminate spiritual disciplines but seeks to use them in the manner in which they were originally intended and keep its focus on Christ

The problem with Lutheranism is that it teaches that there is no teaching authority outside the Bible, thus the fruits of Luther is confusion and false teachings, which has led to anyone and everyone establishing their own church. There’s a reason why Christ founded the Church and put Peter in charge of the flock on earth…

 

[Hodos]

The problem with Lutheranism is that it teaches that there is no teaching authority outside the Bible, thus the fruits of Luther is confusion and false teachings, which has led to anyone and everyone establishing their own church. There’s a reason why Christ founded the Church and put Peter in charge of the flock on earth…

No it doesn’t. It says that when the person claiming authority is at odds with what scripture says, scripture is the infallible word of God. However, what you said is completely off topic.

 

[TNMan]

I don’t mean this to be argumentative. Baptists don’t believe in infant baptism, while Lutherans do. Both cite Scripture on this issue. Both claim the authority of Scripture on this issue.

That’s where Protestantism has lost me.

Not a jab at you personally, just pointing out an issue that Sola Scriptura causes.

 

[Hodos]

Not a jab at you personally, just pointing out an issue that Sola Scriptura causes.

Sola scriptura is not the cause. The Bible says what it says. Tradition causes the difference between the two. Baptists hold that because the Bible does not explicitly command infant baptism but provides narrative examples of adult baptism, and believe that this is a binding command. You can readily see the logical fallacy in this position. Those who believe in infant baptism take the statement that Baptism saves you at its word, as they also take seriously the scriptural comparison between baptism and circumcision. The issue here is not sola scriptura but the intrusion of tradition. Again though, this is off topic.

 

[Gab123]

No it doesn’t. It says that when the person claiming authority is at odds with what scripture says, scripture is the infallible word of God

Yes, after 1,500 years a man came along and made that claim. The Scriptures are the Infallible Word of God. The problem is that the interpretation of the Scriptures are not infallible, thus the chaos, confusion and contradictions coming from individuals all claiming to be interpreting the Sacred Scriptures.

Thus when Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom He was echoing Isaiah. the Keys are a symbol of authority that the king gives to his steward in his absence. Compare what Jesus said:

I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”- Matt. 16:18-19

Compared to Isaiah 22:21-22

“He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

The word “Pope” (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas, means “father”. The pope is the fatherly figure whom Christ put in charge of all the flock, as we read in Scripture:

"Jesus said to him, ‘Feed my lambs’. He said to him a second time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ Peter said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, 'Tend my sheep. Jesus said to Peter the third time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, ‘Do you love me?’ and he said to him, ‘Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Feed my sheep’” -John 21-15-17

The problem with Lutheranism and every other Protestant offshoot is that claim that Jesus did not leave a visible shepherd in His absence. Sola Scriptura is a 16th century novelty that is not in the Bible. the Church was teaching with authority long before the New Testament was even written down. In other words, God gave us the Bible through His Church, not the other way around. Christianity is not founded on the Bible, it is founded on Christ who founded a Church to teach in His name throughout the ages until the end of the world.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Still off-topic. This is not a thread on whether Protestantism is correct.

 

[TNMan]

Yes, it is off topic. My apologies.

 

[Hodos]

Yes, after 1,500 years a man came along and made that claim.

This is a common RC apologetic trope, but it is false nonetheless. So for example when Arius argued that Christ was not pre-existent and was not God in the same way that the Father is God, Alexander and Athenasius argued from scripture that his interpretation was incorrect, demonstrating the way in which Arius’ teaching violated what scripture said. When Ireneaus refuted the gnostics in Against Heresies he similarly demonstrated through examination of scripture how they had misinterpreted what scripture said. Refutation of heresy has never been based strictly on authority, but on authority by virtue of the fact that they are in accord with scripture. Also the quotes you are appealing to are discussing the ability to forgive and retain sins, not declare doctrine as something new than what was received, which is the heart of what Sola Scriptura discusses.

For the third time, this is off topic. There are extensive discussions of Sola Scriptura in other threads.

 

[Gab123]

Refutation of heresy has never been based strictly on authority, but on authority by virtue of the fact that they are in accord with scripture.

Again, the buck stops with the authority of the Church, not self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters, which is what makes up Protestant denominations. What’s more, Luther had no more authority than anyone else to discard Scripture, invent doctrines or interpret Scripture apart from the teaching Magisterium of the Church. But that’s another topic.

 

[Hodos]

Again, the buck stops with the authority of the Church, not self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters, which is what makes up Protestant denominations. What’s more, Luther had no more authority than anyone else to discard Scripture, invent doctrines or interpret Scripture apart from the teaching Magisterium of the Church. But that’s another topic.

Yes, it is another topic entirely which has been discussed in multiple forums ad nauseum. If you would so kindly return to the thread…

 

[Gab123]

Protestant spirituality is lacking in that it is devoid of the Sacraments which revolve around the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. The Sacraments were instituted by Christ to give us sanctifying grace. One can try to have a spiritual life outside of the means which Christ established, however the terrible words of Christ in John 5:53 which made many of His disciples to stop following Him in John 6:66 is a reminder that without Him we are bound to fall away down a path of lifeless self-deception.

 

[TULIPed]

This Protestant self-deception thing works pretty good I must say. In Protestant churches (oddly similar to Catholic Churches) I’ve seen a whole bunch of saved marriages, recovering addicts, repaired relationships, widows thankful for help, adopted orphans, fed sojourners and otherwise blind that can see and lame that can walk. Not too shabby for a bunch of self-deceived heretics.

OR maybe, just maybe, the Holy Spirit can work even with us.

Naaaahhhh. Never mind. Self deceived it is. Carry on.

 

[HopkinsReb]

This Protestant self-deception thing works pretty good I must say. In Protestant churches (oddly similar to Catholic Churches) I’ve seen a whole bunch of saved marriages, recovering addicts, repaired relationships, widows thankful for help, adopted orphans, fed sojourners and otherwise blind that can see and lame that can walk. Not too shabby for a bunch of self-deceived heretics.

It’s all an illusion. Those people are holograms.

 

[TULIPed]

Oh come on HR - you’re not still sore about the whole “imputed” thing are you?

On a lighter note - and totally off topic (apologies to the OP and all thread participants) - word is the Blue Jays have lined up a solid recruiting class this year for LAX (which is the Creators Game, so it’s not totally off topic). Fingers crossed for you.

Of course it all could end up being self deception - we’ll see when Duke (or Notre Dame for all my Catholic friends) comes to town (see what I did there?)…

 

[HopkinsReb]

Oh come on HR - you’re not still sore about the whole “imputed” thing are you?

Of course not.

On a lighter note - and totally off topic (apologies to the OP and all thread participants) - word is the Blue Jays have lined up a solid recruiting class this year for LAX (which is the Creators Game, so it’s not totally off topic). Fingers crossed for you.

Kind of done with Hopkins, tbh. They fired a professor recently for trying to do his job when a bunch of students occupied and chained shut the main admin building.

Of course it all could end up being self deception - we’ll see when Duke comes to town (see what I did there?)…

Probably will be. I think I brought Hopkins my Ole Miss fan luck. They stopped being good basically as soon as I started school there.