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Horton
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This isn’t truthful. As Catholics we can be assured of salvation when we follow God’s will for our life, when we put His will first before our own. When we live in faith. We know what Christ’s sacrifice on cross did for us, in fact it is something we live out every year during Holy Week and Easter.
As opposed to we believe in Jesus and we are saved. We have faith, we are saved. We accepted Jesus as our personal Lord & savior, we are saved. It makes is sound as though there is nothing further to do. Everything needed for salvation was done and you don’t have to lift a finger to keep your salvation.
So what happens if someone is “saved” at some point in their life but then turns to a life of sin and debauchery. Does that person still have the reassurance of eternal life? What if someone turns to Satan and worships him instead of God? In this world of certain salvation what are the consequences of sin?
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annad347
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I think you’re right… because that is what I believe… as well as the rest of what you posted. The only way you would lose your salvation if you choose to walk away from God. I’m just surprised that not what Catholic’s believe?
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annad347
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Back in post 149 it sounded like you weren’t assured of your salvation. Your mistake would be enough for God to know you turned from Him. Deny you because you denied Him. It sounded like you didn’t believe His judgment on you would fair and just. He would consider the mistake of killing someone in an accident because you drove drunk would be enough to tell Him you turned from Him.
If you had lived from the accident would you have been sorry, repented, even accepted the fact you would be going to jail, for what you did? If you say yes, then why would you not think God doesn’t know that about you and welcome you into His arms upon your death?
You make is sound as if God doesn’t know you, but yet He chose you. You belong to Him.
You need to add the HUGE DISCLAIMER you have in post 183 here, becaue I don’t believe anyone here said this… especially the (nothing further to do) part.
You answered your question in the question. If someone is saved (quoates not needed) turns from God, turns to Satan then they choose to live their life without God. Does being Catholic guarantee you will not do that?
Once Saved Always Saved does not mean never having to repent, never having to go to church, never having to pray, it doesn’t even mean never havign to talk to a priest for help in understanding… and it definitly NEVER means NOT having to live by GOD’s WILL. (sry for shouting)
If that is what it means then I agree with you, and do not really understand what OSAS means…
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annad347
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So Catholic’s believe God doesn’t know them?
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Mishakel
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They were never saved.
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Wannano
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I can’t help but admit I struggle with accepting that she would have gone to hell, end of story. Think of Peter, Jesus even told him straight out that he would deny Jesus three times. Don’t you think that Peter was totally aware of the fact that he, Peter was lying? Had Peter died at that moment would we say the first Pope went straight to hell? I have a harder time believing that a pedophile priest can still be a valid confector and absolver than believing that God may extend mercy in the accident case.
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Wannano
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Horton:
They were never saved.
Not sure I agree with this…wouldn’t that mean then that every Catholic who confesses a mortal sin would have never experienced salvation?
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Mishakel
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This is the heart of what I posted about assurance of salvation vs repeatedly having the slate wiped clean.
None of us Catholic or Protestant, live the rest of our lives sinless after putting faith in Christ. We all confess our sins but that confession has different meanings to each side. The Protestant commits a sin (after being born again), confesses and asks for forgiveness from God, but doesn’t think they are in danger of going to hell because of that sin. Do you see the difference?
It doesn’t mean the Protestant can go live a life of sin after being saved. It means we believe as Paul explained clearly we are made righteous before God’s eyes from our faith in Christ before our life as a Christian begins. Abraham was made righteous by faith. He was righteous prior to circumcision and prior to offering Isaac as a sacrifice. Those acts he did to prove his faithfulness but they did not make him righteous because he was made so prior to them happening.
We too as Christians, are made righteous the second we are born again. The act of repentance, or good works performed 3 years after being born again isn’t what makes us righteous. We do good acts, treat others as ourselves, be charitable, and all the other good stuff as a sign to show our faithfulness to God and to the world.
Hope that makes sense.
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Horton
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His judgement on me would have been absolutely fair & just. Did you miss the part where I said God had no fault in that scenario? It’s not a mistake, it is a deliberate choice. It wasn’t accidental, it was the outcome of my deliberate choice. By my actions, knowing they were wrong, I chose to do wrong rather than choosing to follow God.
Had I survived the accident, I would have had the opportunity to repent. I could have turned back to God and would have been forgiven, his mercy pouring out on me regardless of any earthly punishments.
As I said this is not about the love or mercy of God, it is always there, he is always ready to give it to us, but we have to want it, we have to act to accept it.
You are very confused and seem to be reading my posts selectively. I know my faith and I know what God does for me. I know my Catholic faith, enough to know that one can’t be Catholic and Protestant at the same time.
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Horton
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Do you not read the whole post when I post? The disclaimer was to a very specific part of the post.
As Catholics do not believe in OSAS there is no need to talk to a priest. The OSAS is a Protestant invention and has no place in the Catholic Church. I have been clear about that fact all along.
This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.
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Horton
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Who gets to make that judgement? Are you saying someone who has been “really” saved is unable to commit serious sin? A saved person can never commit a sexual crime against a child? (There is more sexual abuse by clergy in Protestant churches than there is in the Catholic Church by.)
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annad347
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I don’t think it is… and I read your post.
I guess I don’t understand your Catholic faith. Still learning… it just that sometimes, someone list things I need to look for in church that is the truth oppose to a church that is full of lies.
Sometimes, those reason the other church is full of lies can apply to the Catholic church… so like I said before it is hard to know the truth about anything except God’s love… but I’m not giving up.
I understand what you are saying, you turned your back on God the moment you chose to drink and drive. You sin was s grave matter, committed with full knowledge, committed with deliberate consent. Then you died without the chance to repent your actions. I understand what you said. You did it, you choose to sin and you did.
I’m just saying is that God would know you would have been repented that sin, had you not died. For all you know you did seconds before you died. He would have known what you did was not deliberate, that you didn’t go out with deliberate intent on killing someone, killing yourself, because God knows you. That’s what I meant, so you would have been saved, because God would have saved you.
but like you said I don’t understand all the Catholic teachings, so maybe I am thinking like a Lutheran.
I just don’t believe one is totally right, while the other is totally wrong.
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Catholics believe God won’t force them. That we always have our free will and it can change our entire life. One can be perfect Christian almost entire life and start worshipping Satan towards end of it and lose salvation. One can be Christian a year then give up his faith then regain it etc. All good is thanks to God grace but our cooperation is needed. And God does give us grace but He does not need to give us chances to repent forever.
Very good you aren’t giving up. If you believe God loves us infinitely, I suggest to think about what would He do to maintain truth? Would He give final final authority to Infallible Book that could be (and has been) misinterpreted by fallible men, or an institution guided by His Spirit? Of course my view is biased but years ago I found idea that a Book written in what is now archaic language with numerous translations done in history that conflict would be final guide a bit odd. Hence why I trust Church is guided by Holy Spirit and gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. I also believe they have not ever done so and Church remains immaculate from heresy. This and approval of Papacy make me Catholic.
Do you believe God knows our choices before we make them? If He does, why does He create people who He knows will go to Hell? Does He hate them? If it was better for those in Hell to never have been born (as Bible tells us), all-Good God would not create them. Hence God probably does not know our choices completely- He knows every possibility but He can not know which is our choice. That is free will. And God can not know whether someone “would have” repented. God can find out by allowing person to live but fact God did not means His warning to us, to be always ready for we do not know day nor hour, does have meaning.
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annad347
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Yes I do. He knew me before I was even form. He knows the choices we will make, yet allows us to make them. Just like Jesus knew who would eat the bread and wine He offered, and who wouldn’t.
Why would He create people He knows will go to hell, I don’t know… Maybe He doesn’t, maybe He created people with ever intentions of them spending eternity in the Garden of Eden, but free will changed that, maybe not, I don’t know
I do know He does everything possible for us not to go to hell, for us change that path. He gave us His Only Begotten Son, then left us with The Holy Spirit to guide us.
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annad347
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I thought the book was inspired by the Holy Spirit… it is man who makes mistakes. The Church that will never be destroyed by Satan is The Living Word, Jesus Christ.
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mcq72
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Thank you for sharing.
Some of your post shows rebuttal to P view of scripture as normative, which I find at odds with what you
lastly say is Catholic position. A bit of either or when rebutting P’s but both/and in reality to CC teaching. That is, scripture is infallibly normative, an equal leg of Truth, with the magisterium leg (fallible men guided infallibly to interpret an infallible book) per Catholic teaching as I see it.
So there is nothing archaic or weak or unnormative about what God has written, and it has always needed God’s inspiration not just in the writing of it, but in the preservation and understanding of it as well.
So the need to account for fallible man or transcend such limitations is understood both by Catholics and Protestants. I think the difference comes mostly but not entirely in whether such guidance is specifically for the magisterium ( clergy/ councils) as opposed to lay people. I think the CC teaches an OT, Jewish setup of a seperate priesthood from universal priesthood (lay people), where as P’s give more credence to the Spirit guiding all as all are universal priesthood. Of course the CC teaches lay people are guided by HS, just as P’s believe in office of teachers and leaders and tradition, but as your own words suggest, you rely more heavily on what the church teaches you than on your own divine revelation of God’s written word, even to the point of acquiescing to their declared infallibility. P’s I think understand both the infallibility of ourselves and our leaders/ teachers, but also in divine guidance of HS to both groups, together…in glorious wonderment yet fearful responsibility.
As you know or posted , CC teaches thru infallible book by infallible and institutional interpretations, guided by HS.
Others believe also in an infallible book, but that inerrant interpretation and teaching from said book is dependant and conditional upon level of reliance and inspiration from the HS.
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gohjedrek
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This is the possibly the biggest issue I have with monergism. The absence of free will and faith being static. I do not have any qualms with predestination, God has a plan for us to heaven, but ultimately we must cooperate in that plan. We must live a life of obedience following Christ, not to give the minimum but to give our best.
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Justin_Mary
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When you say it like that it sounds narcissistic.
We must choose to believe the way, the truth, & the life. Anything else, is just not living.
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