Catholic vs. Roman Catholic

[MariaG]

My point was not directed towards Protestant-Catholic relations, as the Protestants have obviously used the term in a negative standpoint, rather, they where about Eastern Christian relations. I was specifically referencing the term “Roman Church” rather than “Roman Catholic” which is used to distinguish within the Catholic Church. I can give you one of the earliest sources from Christian history, the Second Council of Nicea, written by Pope Hadrian himself.

“If you persevere in that orthodox Faith in which you have begun, and the sacred and venerable images be by your means erected again in those parts, as by the lord, the Emperor Constantine of pious memory, and the blessed Helen, who promulgated the orthodox Faith, and exalted the holy **Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church **your spiritual mother, and with the other orthodox Emperors venerated it as the head of all Churches, so will your Clemency, that is protected of God, receive the name of another Constantine, and another Helen, through whom at the beginning the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church derived strength, and like whom your own imperial”

Granted, this could be referred to as the “rite” statement, yet this is using the traditional “Catholic and Apostolic” title and is in reference to the Church herself. A rite by definition is an order of service for celebrating a particular sacrament(s) which is not being used here. Semantics, but nonetheless present.

Despite this, your objections to what I have said are off from my Eastern point. I completely agree with you in regards to the Protestant factor.

God Bless.

If you reread my post, I did in fact mention that the Eastern churhces will refer to Roman Church or Roman Catholic in order to differentiate the Rite .

I also found through an engine search the words you quoted. Due to the length of the article, I could not find the exact words. could you please tell me exactly where those are found (link below). The first paragraph are the words of the Emperor to the Pope. I cannot seem to find the words of the pope responding back using these words, although as I said previously, it will be used on occassion to distinguish between different rites in the Church.

This unfortunately, as you have said, is not how it is used by non-Catholics but rather is done usually to refer to the Catholic Church as a whole indiscriminate of the rite. These people do not want to use the name that the whole Catholic Church uses for herself. This is a significant difference.
Second Council of Nicaea

God Bless,
Maria

 

[yeshua]

Maria,

Here are a few websites containing what you desire:

This one has Pope Haridan’s letter right at the beginning of the page, a part of the first paragraph under Part of Pope Hadrian’s Letter:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.vi.html

This one requires you to scroll down to Section II, Part of Pope Hadrian’s Letter:
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/ecu.htm

Another one with Pope Hadrian’s Letter presented at the first of the page:
sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/214/2140678.htm

I hope these are satisfactory. I will be honest, the argument can be made that it is referring to a “rite” but this seems very doubtful due to (1) the context the phrase “holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church” is used in (2) the statement of being “your spiritual mother.”

Yet the “rite” argument can be used as well, as the text differentiates between the Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. Despite this, if you read under what was not read to the council, the statement affirms the “Roman Church” as the “head of all the Churches of God,” ensuing that the Roman Church of today is the Roman Church Pope Hadrian is speaking of.

Despite this mess of semantics, I believe we are both in complete agreement over the Protestant and Eastern Brethren question.

Peace and God Bless!

• Yeshua

 

[frnate]

If you reread my post, I did in fact mention that the Eastern churhces will refer to Roman Church or Roman Catholic in order to differentiate the Rite .

I believe that yeshua was pointing out the fact that Hadrian’s use of the term “Roman” was not to specify the rite, but rather to specify the locale. Thereby negating your assertion that addition of the term “Roman” to Catholic was “in fact a Protestant invention.”

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[Sixtus]

Ask a (Roman) Catholic and s/he will say, “No.”
Ask anyone else, and s/he will say, “Yes.”

Mystophilis: Nice one!

Personally, I would say a ‘Roman’ Catholic is a Catholic who lives in Rome. I regard myself as an ‘English Catholic’. If you want to define it more, an East Angian [Diocese] Catholic.

So far as I am aware, I think ‘Roman’ is intended to be derogatory. But I think the term ‘Romish’ or small ’ r ’ romish is very offensive, particularly as we never [so far as I am aware] use offensive nouns in reference to non-Catholics.

I have never heard the Catholic Church refer to itself as ‘Roman’ .

 

[yeshua]

I believe that yeshua was pointing out the fact that Hadrian’s use of the term “Roman” was not to specify the rite, but rather to specify the locale. Thereby negating your assertion that addition of the term “Roman” to Catholic was “in fact a Protestant invention.”

Peace,
+Nathan

Yes, thank you Nathan, that is my exact intent. A great gift of foreshortening you have.

• Yeshua

 

[yeshua]

Mystophilis: Nice one!

Personally, I would say a ‘Roman’ Catholic is a Catholic who lives in Rome. I regard myself as an ‘English Catholic’. If you want to define it more, an East Angian [Diocese] Catholic.

So far as I am aware, I think ‘Roman’ is intended to be derogatory. But I think the term ‘Romish’ or small ’ r ’ romish is very offensive, particularly as we never [so far as I am aware] use offensive nouns in reference to non-Catholics.

I have never heard the Catholic Church refer to itself as ‘Roman’ .

I agree, the term “Roman” is offensive to Roman Catholics (term used to distinguish within the Catholic Church) when used within the Protestant context. For us Eastern Catholics have troubles distinguishing our identities when we present ourselves as “Catholic” for the first image that comes to mind for most people (naturally so) is the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, for that is obviously the most prevalent rite and practice within the Catholic Church; Roman Catholic or the Roman Church are acceptable uses by both the Eastern Catholics and Roman Rite practicing Catholics because it is a means to deduce tradition and heritage, not to attack like some Protestants.

For example, when I talk about Roman Catholics in my posts, it is never negative, for I often discuss Eastern Catholics in my posts, with my intent solely to show a difference between EC or RC theology, practice, spirituality etc. We are all Catholic, we just have our own way of expressing it!

Peace and God Bless, everyone.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Interchangeable…
http://www.stmaryswatchung.org/images/Church_Sign.jpg
http://www.stpeter-skokie.org/images/sign.jpg

I’m glad you asked that, good question. In reference to the meaning there is no difference. Catholic and Roman Catholic are the same thing…

That is not completely true and they are not “interchangeable”. The Catholic Faith is not just cthe Roman Catholic Church but 21 OTHER Catholic “Churches” (22 in total) spread across Six Rites as follows …

• Alexandrean Rite
  — Coptic Catholic Church
  — Ethiopian (& Eritrean) Catholic Church
• Antiochene Rite
  — Syriac Catholic Church
  — Syro-Malabarese Catholic Church
  — Syro-Malankarese Catholic Church
• Armenian Rite
  — Armenian Catholic Church
• Byzantine Rite
  — Albanian Catholic Church
  — Belarusan Catholic Church
  — Bulgarian Catholic Church
  — Croatian Catholic Church
  — Georgian Catholic Church
  — Greek Catholic Church
  — Hungarian Catholic Church
  — Italo-Greco-Albanian Catholic Church
  — Melkite Catholic Church
  — Russian Catholic Church
  — Romanian Catholic Church
  — Ruthenian Catholic Church
  — Slovakian Catholic Church
  — Ukrainian Catholic Church
• Latin Rite
  — Roman Catholic Church
• Maronite Rite
  — Maronite Catholic Church

… If I recall correctly, I believe the Roman Catholic Church is larger than the other Catholic Churches combined. Although, I’m not completely certain on that point.

 

[yeshua]

The Roman Church is the largest. Us Eastern Catholics constitute about 2% of the 1 billion Catholics.

 

[mrs_abbott]

The Catholic Faith is not just cthe Roman Catholic Church but 21 OTHER Catholic “Churches” (22 in total) spread across Six Rites as follows …

• Alexandrean Rite
  — Coptic Catholic Church
  — Ethiopian (& Eritrean) Catholic Church
• Antiochene Rite
  — Syriac Catholic Church
  — Syro-Malabarese Catholic Church
  — Syro-Malankarese Catholic Church
• Armenian Rite
  — Armenian Catholic Church
• Byzantine Rite
  — Albanian Catholic Church
  — Belarusan Catholic Church
  — Bulgarian Catholic Church
  — Croatian Catholic Church
  — Georgian Catholic Church
  — Greek Catholic Church
  — Hungarian Catholic Church
  — Italo-Greco-Albanian Catholic Church
  — Melkite Catholic Church
  — Russian Catholic Church
  — Romanian Catholic Church
  — Ruthenian Catholic Church
  — Slovakian Catholic Church
  — Ukrainian Catholic Church
• Latin Rite
  — Roman Catholic Church
• Maronite Rite
  — Maronite Catholic Church

… If I recall correctly, I believe the Roman Catholic Church is larger than the other Catholic Churches combined. Although, I’m not completely certain on that point.

What’s the difference between all of them?

 

[yeshua]

I am more than happy to answer that, but it would take a substantial amount of time. I invite you to browse through the Eastern Christian board here and meet some of your Eastern Brothers and Sisters from some of those churches listed. In the mean time, Wikipedia goes a great job explaining what Eastern Catholics are. It also lists the individual churches and links to their respecitve Wikipedia page that can describe each one.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic

In short, for all Eastern Catholics, there are these facts:
(1) They are based on traditions other than Rome, I.E. Byzantine, Antioch, etc.
(2) They have practices and theology like that of our Orthodox Brethren
(3) They all acknowledge the Pope has the head of the Universal Church

If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask.

• Yeshua

 

[StMarkEofE]

The Catholic Church has never referred to herself as the Roman Catholic Church.

Since Catholic means universal, when the Protestants broke away from the universal Catholic Church, they still confess to believe in one holy catholic church. So they needed to rename the Catholic Church to the Roman Catholic Church.

Some do not mind the name as evidenced by a Catholic Church that even embraced it in it’s name. But it is a name placed upon the Catholic Church by the reformers.

But as I already said, the Catholic Church has NEVER referred to herself in any official church documents as the “Roman” Catholic Church.

God bless,
Maria

Oh Yes she has. Many official Vatican documents carry this term in their context. It was brought to our attention many times by Fr. Ambrose. And what is the problem with the term Roman Catholic. I was very proud of that term when I was under Rome. I had no problem with it, nor were the Sisters and Brothers that taught us in elementary and High School bothered by it. They used it liberally in all their teachings. Stand up for yourselves, and be proud of the title.

Guess what the very first RC high school in Philadelphia was and is still named and is still operating with full attendence: You guessed it" Roman Catholic High School".

romancatholichs.com/

 

[Sir_Knight]

What’s the difference between all of them?

To answer that question is really beyond the scope of this thread but just as an example, some Rites and/or Churches allow their priests to marry. Other Rites and/or Churches do not allow their priests to marry but do allow married men to become priests. Neither of which, is permitted within the Latin Rite.

Yet, such a married priest is still considered to be a VALID Catholic Priest by the Roman Catholic Church. That is because the marriage of priests is NOT Catholic Doctrine or Cathoic Dogma but a Church PRACTICE.

A very simplifed explanation is that ALL Catholic Churches agree on Doctrine & Dogma but MAY differ with regards to Church Disciplines and Practices.

For example, clerical celibacy and not eating meat on Fridays during Lent is a Church PRACTICE.

Hope that helps.

 

[MariaG]

Maria,

Here are a few websites containing what you desire:

This one has Pope Haridan’s letter right at the beginning of the page, a part of the first paragraph under Part of Pope Hadrian’s Letter:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.vi.html

This one requires you to scroll down to Section II, Part of Pope Hadrian’s Letter:
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/ecu.htm

Another one with Pope Hadrian’s Letter presented at the first of the page:
sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/214/2140678.htm

I hope these are satisfactory. I will be honest, the argument can be made that it is referring to a “rite” but this seems very doubtful due to (1) the context the phrase “holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church” is used in (2) the statement of being “your spiritual mother.”

Yet the “rite” argument can be used as well, as the text differentiates between the Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. Despite this, if you read under what was not read to the council, the statement affirms the “Roman Church” as the “head of all the Churches of God,” ensuing that the Roman Church of today is the Roman Church Pope Hadrian is speaking of.

Despite this mess of semantics, I believe we are both in complete agreement over the Protestant and Eastern Brethren question.

Peace and God Bless!

• Yeshua

Thanks for the links

And yes, I do believe we are in argreement over the Protestant and Eastern Brethren question.

God bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I believe that yeshua was pointing out the fact that Hadrian’s use of the term “Roman” was not to specify the rite, but rather to specify the locale. Thereby negating your assertion that addition of the term “Roman” to Catholic was “in fact a Protestant invention.”

Peace,
+Nathan

I agree, the term “Roman” is offensive to Roman Catholics (term used to distinguish within the Catholic Church) when used within the Protestant context. For us Eastern Catholics have troubles distinguishing our identities when we present ourselves as “Catholic” for the first image that comes to mind for most people (naturally so) is the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, for that is obviously the most prevalent rite and practice within the Catholic Church; Roman Catholic or the Roman Church are acceptable uses by both the Eastern Catholics and Roman Rite practicing Catholics because it is a means to deduce tradition and heritage, not to attack like some Protestants.

For example, when I talk about Roman Catholics in my posts, it is never negative, for I often discuss Eastern Catholics in my posts, with my intent solely to show a difference between EC or RC theology, practice, spirituality etc. We are all Catholic, we just have our own way of expressing it!

Peace and God Bless, everyone.

Hi all,

Actually Nathan, it is not my assertion, but those of well respected sites like EWTN and such.

And as yeshua has pointed out, in context, it is not a derogatory term.

But in the context of the articles and their (my) assertions, it is when this term is uniformly placed upon the Catholic Church not as a way to distinguish which part of the Church they are talking about, but as a normative name.

The “protestant” invention that most are referring to in this context is not the proper way that has been used by the Church for over a thousand years to identify different areas/rites etc, but rather the way that the Protestant Church has tried to strip the Catholic Church of the right to call herself simply the “Catholic Church” as she has done most often throughout all documents of the Church and impose the adjective “Roman” to be the normative and proper name of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church rejects this adjective when applied in this context and this is the protestant invention that most are referring to.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Oh Yes she has. Many official Vatican documents carry this term in their context. It was brought to our attention many times by Fr. Ambrose. And what is the problem with the term Roman Catholic. I was very proud of that term when I was under Rome. I had no problem with it, nor were the Sisters and Brothers that taught us in elementary and High School bothered by it. They used it liberally in all their teachings. Stand up for yourselves, and be proud of the title.

Guess what the very first RC high school in Philadelphia was and is still named and is still operating with full attendence: You guessed it" Roman Catholic High School".

romancatholichs.com/

As I stated previously, some Catholics have chosen to embrace this name, but in the context of the articles as well as history, the use of the name “Roman Catholic” in regards to Protestants has been a case of Protestants trying to strip the Catholic Church of the right to refer to herself as she has done most often in all documents as simply the Catholic Church or the Church.

Although not intended I am sure, I am wondering why the “context” of this, well supported by reliable Catholic sources are being ignored and this has become “my assertions”?

Probably my fault for not keeping the “context” in place during my responses.

But there is a significant difference between the usage of “Roman” in church documents and the use of the word by Protestants. One is trying to differentiate and be more exact on which part of the Catholic Church one is talking about and the other is trying to impose “Roman Catholic” upon all who are in communion with Rome and make it the Proper name of the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I agree, the term “Roman” is offensive to Roman Catholics (term used to distinguish within the Catholic Church) when used within the Protestant context. For us Eastern Catholics have troubles distinguishing our identities when we present ourselves as “Catholic” for the first image that comes to mind for most people (naturally so) is the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, for that is obviously the most prevalent rite and practice within the Catholic Church; Roman Catholic or the Roman Church are acceptable uses by both the Eastern Catholics and Roman Rite practicing Catholics because it is a means to deduce tradition and heritage, not to attack like some Protestants.

For example, when I talk about Roman Catholics in my posts, it is never negative, for I often discuss Eastern Catholics in my posts, with my intent solely to show a difference between EC or RC theology, practice, spirituality etc. We are all Catholic, we just have our own way of expressing it!

Peace and God Bless, everyone.

And this is exactly the point.

There is a difference between your grandfather, mother, close friends calling you by a “nickname” and a second cousin whom you rarely talk to try to call you by that name.

For example: My sister never uses the name “Patti Chris” but rather Patricia or Pat. But My grandmother’s was called Pat, my mom Patty, and my sister Patti Christ, in order for people to know which “Patricia” was one was referring to.

Context and intent are very important when discussiong this issue.

The intent of Eastern Catholic when they use the term is for clarification of which part of the family they are talking about. The intent of many Protestants (not all) is to refuse to give the Catholic Church the right to the name she has used for 2000 years.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Whatever the history of Roman Catholic /vs Catholic terminology, today in the U.S. I am very grateful to have these terms available to me. The U.S. is filled with Catholics, but it is sparsely populated with Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics are loyal to Rome. Catholics may or may not be. I refer to these U.S. schismatics as American Catholics as opposed to Roman Catholics.

Marsha
Roman Catholic by the Grace of God.

 

[THutch04]

I never refered to anyone as “Roman Catholic” even when I was Anglican, and I don’t refer to myself as that now. I just say I’m Catholic. But it doesn’t bother me if people refer to me as being Roman Catholic.

 

[Will_Pick]

Is there a difference between these two terms or are they just two terms for the same thing?

Thanks.

It is not possible to give an exact year when the Catholic Church began to be called the “Roman Catholic Church,” it is possible to approximate it. The term originates as an insult created by Anglicans who wished to refer to themselves as Catholic. They thus coined the term “Roman Catholic” to distinguish those “other” Catholics and create a sense in which they could refer to themselves as Catholics (by attempting to deprive actual Catholics to the right to the term).
Different variants of the “Roman” insult appeared at different times. The earliest form of the insult was the noun “Romanist” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which appeared in England about 1515-1525. The next to develop was the adjective “Romish” (similar to something done or believed in the Catholic Church), which appeared around 1525-1535. Next came the noun “Roman Catholic” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which was coined approximately 1595-1605. Shortly thereafter came the verb “to Romanize” (to make someone a Catholic or to become a Catholic), which appeared around 1600-10. Then between 1665 and 1675 we got the noun “Romanism” (the system of Catholic beliefs and practices), and finally we got a late-comer term about 1815-1825-the noun “Roman Catholicism,” which is a synonym for the earlier “Romanism.”
A similar complex of insults arose around the term “pope.” About 1515-25 the Anglicans coined the term “papist” and later its derivative “papism.” A quick follow-up, in 1520-1530, was the adjective “popish.” Next came “popery” (1525-1535), and then “papistry” (1540-1550), with its later derivatives, “papistical” and “papistic.” (Source: *Random House Webster’s College Dictionary, *1995 ed.)
This complex of insults is revealing as it shows the depths of animosity English Protestants had toward the Church. No other religious body (perhaps no other group at all-even national or racial ones) has such a complex of insults woven into the English language as does the Catholic Church. Even today many Protestants who have no idea what the origin of the term is cannot bring themselves to say “Catholic” without qualifying it or replacing it with a Roman insult.

 

[Lampo]

The cover of the bulletin at our parish says, “Cathedral of Christ the King.” Then underneath that it say, “Roman Catholic Church.”