Catholic Worship of Mary

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Matthew 25,

Salvation did come through Mary. This according to Scripture. Our Salvation–Jesus Christ–came through Mary by the providence of God. Almighty God could have poofed Incarnate Jesus fully grown to accomplish what he did on Calvary. He didn’t. Why not? Have you contemplated this? Catholics have for 2000 years. Catholics insist that there’s something about the answer to this question that God is teaching us. Our conclusion, made in the earliest centuries of the Church is that Mary, as the Living Ark of the Living Word, that deserves honor. We insist as did St. Luke that Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. The Bible tells us that our Salvation came through Mary, the handmaid of the Lord, and so we insist upon it.

Please take a moment to read my blog on the biblical roots of Marian doctrines…

**Doctrines about Mary are Biblical **- View
Prayers to Mary and the saints? - View

Look to the typological sense of the OT. See how they honored the created thing called the Ark of the Covenant. Did they worship the Ark? Didn’t the people of God use the Ark to lead them in their battle? Wasn’t the Ark a defense against their enemies? Surely they didn’t pretend the Ark had some power to protect them APART from God’s Word. Yet, they certainly carried it and God’s Word into battle with their enemies, knowing that it was the holiest creation in their midst. For them (and for Catholics), there is no question that our veneration of God’s Ark will detract from worshipping God’s Word. We don’t make such a ridiculous dichotomy between the two. That would be just as goofy as accusing the Isrealites of worshipping the Ark and not the Word carried within. The Isrealites, from all appearances, worshipped a thing, the golden Ark which was adorn with graven images. They kept it in the Holy of Holies of their Temple, and from all appearances, it was their most Sacred possession. But appearances can be decieving. They didn’t in fact worship the golden Ark with graven images, did they? They only appeared to. To He who could see what was in their hearts, it was clear that they merely treated the Ark as a sacred vessel which carried God’s holy Word. The created Ark was an icon of the uncreated Word which it carried. The Ark was indeed used in their battles against their enemy, but it is clear that it was nothing but God’s power that protected them, not any inherent power of a created golden Ark adorn with graven images. Did they worship the Ark, or understand that this mere creation was holy and kept holy by God, because it was the Sacred Vessel which held God’s Holy Word? It was made pure, kept pure, and protected from corruption by God.
 
Hi folks,

I REALLY hope that you are correct in saying that those quotes were incorrect.

I have encountered things like this before. One was a prayer posted on a Catholic Charismatic Renewal website that had its origins in ancient Catholcism. That prayer used much the same terminology as in what was posted here. The prayer I refer to basically deified Mary.

I’m happy to learn folks here do not believe Mary is a diety.

Now, I want to say something to Mike and to Cheddarsox. I’m an old man so you have to listen (smile).

Mike, I am SO sorry you had this experience with a Baptist group. As a non-denominational now and former Baptist, this just breaks my heart. It is absolutely terrible… Mike, please understand that not all “protestants” - and not even all Baptist fundamentalists - have this kind of attitude. You just ran into the wrong bunch, apparently. Have your own Bible study, Mike, and pray for those misguided folks. God bless you, friend.

Cheddar. Since I am not Catholic - I just call myself a “follower of Jesus” and let others place labels on me - I see things a bit differently than other folks about your postings.

With all due respect to my Catholic friends, I think the issue is more about you coming back to JESUS and less about coming back to a certain religious denomination.

Well, blessed Cheddar, He wants you back! He loves you and He went to the Cross and died for you! Just come back to Him and let Him gently guide and direct you about how and when to make decisions on church involvement, etc.

Just return to Jesus and let all of these issues be resolved over time as you are under His loving care and guidance. Bless you, dear friend!

I leave this message with John 15:12 on my mind: “This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.”

Lord, give us your grace that we may love one another as you have loved us. Amen.
 
Matthew 25:
With all due respect to my Catholic friends, I think the issue is more about you coming back to JESUS
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Jesus is our Lord. In what way do we need to “come back” to Jesus? He is worshipped EVERYDAY, in EVERY COUNTRY in our Catholic liturgy, and it has been that way since the first century.

With all due respect to C.S. Lewis, this quote from him appears to apply just as equally to all of Protestantism as it did with the modern theology within Protestantism which he was concerned with…"The undermining of the old orthodoxy has been mainly the work of divines engaged in New Testament criticism. The authority of experts in that discipline is the authority in deference to whom we are asked to give up a huge mass of beliefs shared in common by the early church…"

(C.S. Lewis, “Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism,” Chapter 31, McDowell, J., The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1999, pg. 574)
 
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Singinbeauty:
While I highly doubt this, I will keep truckin’ on in my research. But I will be honest… that statement is a HUGE setback for me in the way that I WAS thinking that catholics don’t worship Mary but with a thought process like that one you pretty much put me back at square one… thanx for that allhers… :mad:
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Have you read this whole thread from the beginning? Poster #50 Posted it first, I read it, then Poster #51 PNRC (the one that started this thread) asked on post #51 if we were seeing something that he didn’t see in it.
Then on post #52 I quoted that part(from post #50) and suggested that they read that part until it sunk it, so actually it isn’t me you ought to be thanking or blaming, which ever you are doing.
However, I did go to Adoration tonight to ADORE Jesus and I asked Him to help you and other’s like you to understand and I asked that His Blessed Mother pray with me for you and other’s who don’t understand, so -you’re welcome.
 
Hi follks,

To the friend who posted this message, I must say I am very confused:

“Jesus is our Lord. In what way do we need to “come back” to Jesus? He is worshipped EVERYDAY, in EVERY COUNTRY in our Catholic liturgy, and it has been that way since the first century.”

I would most certainly say AMEN to that statement! Did you misunderstand what I was saying? I was speaking specifically to a person who had decided to essentially leave the Body of Christ in favor of a religion called “Pantheism.”

There is a song on a John Michael Talbot CD (Catholic music’s No. 1 artist) that says “Come back to me, with all your heart. Don’t let fear, keep us apart.” The song speaks of someone needing to return to Jesus Christ.

As I say, I am confused by your comment. I hope this message helps you to better understand what I was saying. God bless you, friend.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Jesus is our Lord. In what way do we need to “come back” to Jesus? He is worshipped EVERYDAY, in EVERY COUNTRY in our Catholic liturgy, and it has been that way since the first century.
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:yup: :amen:
With all due respect to C.S. Lewis, this quote from him appears to apply just as equally to all of Protestantism as it did with the modern theology within Protestantism which he was concerned with…
"The undermining of the old orthodoxy has been mainly the work of divines engaged in New Testament criticism. The authority of experts in that discipline is the authority in deference to whom we are asked to give up a huge mass of beliefs shared in common by the early church…"
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(C.S. Lewis, “Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism,” Chapter 31, McDowell, J., The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1999, pg. 574)
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You know, I’m a big fan of C.S. Lewis, and becoming moreso each and every day. What I can’t figure out is: why wasn’t he a Catholic?
His theology is sooo in line with Catholic theology (more than many, or maybe most, Catholics :ehh: ) that I resort to his explainations often. What prevented him from being Catholic?
 
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Schabel:
You know, I’m a big fan of C.S. Lewis, and becoming moreso each and every day. What I can’t figure out is: why wasn’t he a Catholic?
His theology is sooo in line with Catholic theology (more than many, or maybe most, Catholics :ehh: ) that I resort to his explainations often. What prevented him from being Catholic?
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I once heard (I don’t remember where–maybe Chesterton?) that had Lewis lived longer, he would have most assuredly converted to Catholicism. 🙂
 
Matthew 25:
Hi folks,

I REALLY hope that you are correct in saying that those quotes were incorrect.
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Understand: they were, as far as I can tell, not technically “incorrect” (I haven’t looked at all of them), but they WERE taken quite strongly out of context.

For instance, it is NOT theologically incorrect to say that salvation came through Mary, as itsjustdave1988 pointed out in post #180.

That’s why I asked that we take a look at a a couple of examples, so that we could assuage your objections on these matters.
 
Originally Posted by PNRC
Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe
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God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin
These are my objections as the quotes show.
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Moderator note:

On further inspection, it appears that what CM jumped on was actually the post that PNRC made which sent this thread into a tailspin of controversy. The way that PNRC pulled lines out of context and assembled them is definitely misleading and really does constitute a fabrication. Imagine if someone had taken the same liberties with the Bible itself…virtually anything could be made to appear indicting…couldn’t it?

I applaud all of you for your level headed efforts to remain calm and get to the bottom of this, while maintaining good charity.

May the Holy Spirit guide us all into His truth.
Michael Francis
 
Dear friends,

I posted a similar message as this on another thread…

My heart is heavy now. I asked the Lord two days ago how long I should post in this forum and ask questions and I felt Him saying to my spirit: “Two days.”

So, I must be obedient like Jesus was to His Father when he was walking this Earth.

But I feel in my spirit he will allow me to return and when He tells me to return I will.

All of your posts confirm what I had already known, that the vast majority of Catholics are wonderful people who love God.

A year ago, the Lord spoke to me in my spirit and said: “Make friends with your Catholic brothers and sisters.”

He didn’t tell me to become a Catholic, he told me to make friends.

I hope you all feel that I have been a friend. I love you all with the love of Christ.

If anyone desires, please feel free to send me a personal message through this forum and when I get it I will send you my e-mail address if you would like to continue any communication.
God bless each and every one, Matthew (Chapter) 25
 
Oh, I forgot!

You know, when I read Catholic doctrine or read dectrine as it is discussed in this forum, it seems like there are such major, expansive differences between me as a “protestant” and my Catholic brothers and sisters.

But when I meet with and pray with and talk with my Catholic friends IN PERSON, those differences really don’t seem so expansive at all.
In fact, barely noticeable.

We always seem to have SO MUCH in common when we meet in person. Of course, that commonality is found in the person of Jesus Christ.

Blessings to all!
 
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PNRC:
Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin
These are my objections as the quotes show.
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itsjustdave1988:
The thread reminds me of the truth of these words from Archbishop Fulton Sheen:"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing…
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It reminds me of the story of the man who used his Bible to get “messages”: Every day, he opened it at random, pointed to a verse with his eyes shut, & that was :rolleyes: “God’s word for the day”…
One day, he opened up, & pointed at :eek: “Judas went out & hanged himself”…He figured he needed another verse, so he tried again…This time, the verse said, :eek: “Go & do thou likewise”…
His response is :nope: unrecorded…

Sounds like somebody has been doing that kind of divining with de Montfort…
 
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LSK:
Lightministries was one of those websites that, when Rod Bennett started his search to ‘prove’ how wrong the Catholic Church was it lead to his eventual conversion!
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You know where I can read about his Conversion?
 
Montie Claunch:
You know where I can read about his Conversion?
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If he “Converted” to Catholism why is his website still around? Why wouldn’t he have taken it off, as not to “Mislead” people further from the “Truth” he found?
 
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PNRC:
If he “Converted” to Catholism why is his website still around? Why wouldn’t he have taken it off, as not to “Mislead” people further from the “Truth” he found?
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I believe the point was that Rod Bennett, in trying to prove Catholicism wrong, found the “Lightministries” site an ironic aid in his conversion to Catholicism, not that the website is that of Mr. Bennett. 🙂
 
Did PNRC ever respond to CM;s findings and to the moderator’s findings about his original post?
 
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PNRC:
If he “Converted” to Catholism why is his website still around? Why wouldn’t he have taken it off, as not to “Mislead” people further from the “Truth” he found?
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Is there some good reason that you choose not to respond to the fact that I proved that your posted quotes to be a pile of out of context phrases that make the Catholic Church look like we teach something that we do not?

Are you an honest man? I have to wonder…

I don’t think you know what we really believe. I think you are not here to talk with Catholics about what we believe, but to use this forum as a platform for your aspersions on our faith.

If I am wrong, then prove it to us, by admitting that you composed the post with all those quotes like that and then explain to us why you did it, since YOU are the one that attempted to make us look like some sort of idol worshipping fools.

Is this your idea of some kind of loving and honest Christian “witness”? :eek:
 
Church Militant:
Is there some good reason that you choose not to respond to the fact that I proved that your posted quotes to be a pile of out of context phrases that make the Catholic Church look like we teach something that we do not?

Are you an honest man? I have to wonder…

I don’t think you know what we really believe. I think you are not here to talk with Catholics about what we believe, but to use this forum as a platform for your aspersions on our faith.

If I am wrong, then prove it to us, by admitting that you composed the post with all those quotes like that and then explain to us why you did it, since YOU are the one that attempted to make us look like some sort of idol worshipping fools.

Is this your idea of some kind of loving and honest Christian “witness”? :eek:
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I am going through the ecycilicals to look for myself now. They are rather long so it is taking me some time. If I can’t find them I will retract the statement and apologize for the err.
 
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