Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[ShadowBoxer]

Doing a Google search on ‘Feminism and the Catholic Church’ turned up this article from The Catholic Herald. The article is dated January 8th so it’s probably old news to some of you at least. Nonetheless, I thought it was interesting enough to share on this forum. The article talks about several statements made by Cardinal Raymond Burke lamenting the fact that radical feminism has gained a foothold within the Church, leading to the marginalization of men. This marginalization according to Cardinal Burke (I am paraphrasing here) has led to a decline in male church activity not just in the form of less vocations, but also less involvement from the male laity as well. Moreover, the cardinal says that young boys are not being taught manly virtues and it is leading to a decline in manly development and is not only undermining manhood and fatherhood, but the family as a whole. I have included the link below in case anyone wants to read the full article. I recommend it. It’s not long.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/01/08/radical-feminism-is-assaulting-the-church-says-cardinal/

I will start off the discussion by saying that I agree with Cardinal Burke, as much of what he points out are things which I myself have observed for years. How many priests do you know that you would describe as truly masculine? Without thinking hard about it, I can name only one that I know personally and one other that I know by reputation. Your answer will depend on your definition of masculinity. What does it mean to be truly masculine? The Church needs to be talking about this. Have we as a church become feminized? Could feminism possibly be antithetical to Christianity? Comments welcome.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t know that many priests who *aren’t *masculine. Certainly the pastors I have had were instrumental in keeping the parish from being shoved too far towards catering only towards the sensibilities of the female volunteers or staff members who were among the most assertive in their opinions about how to do things. This may be why we have roughly as many men as women as lectors, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, choir, and so on. Among altar servers, it is literally half boys and half girls.

I have lived in parishes in which the Knights of Columbus are very active, though. When the Knights are running something, the men of the parish are running it. Even if they accept the help of female volunteers, it does have a different emphasis. The presence of the Knights probably does make a big difference.

 

[Xantippe]

Doing a Google search on ‘Feminism and the Catholic Church’ turned up this article from The Catholic Herald. The article is dated January 8th so it’s probably old news to some of you at least. Nonetheless, I thought it was interesting enough to share on this forum. The article talks about several statements made by Cardinal Raymond Burke lamenting the fact that radical feminism has gained a foothold within the Church, leading to the marginalization of men. This marginalization according to Cardinal Burke (I am paraphrasing here) has led to a decline in male church activity not just in the form of less vocations, but also less involvement from the male laity as well. Moreover, the cardinal says that young boys are not being taught manly virtues and it is leading to a decline in manly development and is not only undermining manhood and fatherhood, but the family as a whole. I have included the link below in case anyone wants to read the full article. I recommend it. It’s not long.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/01/08/radical-feminism-is-assaulting-the-church-says-cardinal/

I will start off the discussion by saying that I agree with Cardinal Burke, as much of what he points out are things which I myself have observed for years. How many priests do you know that you would describe as truly masculine? Without thinking hard about it, I can name only one that I know personally and one other that I know by reputation. Your answer will depend on your definition of masculinity. What does it mean to be truly masculine? The Church needs to be talking about this. Have we as a church become feminized? Could feminism possibly be antithetical to Christianity? Comments welcome.

Well, hasn’t it pretty much always been the case that the practice of the Catholic faith has been primarily a woman thing? Think of all the stories of married female saints we’ve all heard of where mom was devout and dad was not.

And it’s not just Catholics. There’s a famous 1959 Norman Rockwell painting entitled “Easter Sunday” showing mom marching the children off to church in Easter Sunday best, while dad in a bathrobe enjoys the Sunday paper and a cigarette.

saturdayeveningpost.com/2012/02/24/art-entertainment/rockwell-50s-part-iii-iii.html

Likewise, who is the stereotypical Russian Orthodox believer? It’s an old lady in a head scarf.

Beating up on women for showing up and doing stuff is dumb and demoralizing. It’s like those sermons about people not coming to Mass–given at Mass to the people that actually showed up.

 

[kozlosap]

Without women, the Church would collapse. Trying to divide and conquer social dilemmas is rarely successful, but some, such as Cardinal Burke, refuse to acknowledge that fact. In order to flourish and survive, we have to look and move forward, not go backwards into the 19th Century.

 

[Xantippe]

The Church has been feminized ever since Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome went to anoint Christ’s body for burial after the disciples ran off.

If the Church is feminized today, it’s probably for very similar reasons.

 

[clem456]

In our parish, the pastor works with a small group of women to make most of the decisions and formulate our public discourse. They are most exclusively 50-60 year old pastoral ministry graduates. So, a very limited and somewhat intolerant point of view runs the parish.

But, that simply reflects the fact that men are not involved in pastoral ministry much.
So… somebody has to do it. Right? Pastoral ministry should not be “women’s work”, but that’s the way it is seen by many men. And besides, we have pushed women aside for so many eons that when the parish opened up to women, they took the opportunity. So God bless them.

Its not the best in our current situation due to the narrowness, but it’s the way it is.

 

[Xantippe]

Has it ever been the case in the last 500 years that Catholic laymen have been heavily involved in parish life?

I suspect that laymen have never had a large role in Catholic parish, rather than that they had one and have now been elbowed aside by women.

 

[phil19034]

Without women, the Church would collapse. Trying to divide and conquer social dilemmas is rarely successful, but some, such as Cardinal Burke, refuse to acknowledge that fact. In order to flourish and survive, we have to look and move forward, not go backwards into the 19th Century.

kozlosap - I do not believe you properly understand what Cardinal Burke means by this.

In many parishes (not all) women make up the overwhelming majority of the parish lay leadership. They are a majority of the lectors, EMHCs, choir singers, CCD teachers, Adult Faith Formation leaders, parish committee members, paid staff, etc.

The number of women in parish leadership (in many parishes) out numbers the men greatly, even when including the priests.

Unless a man is a Deacon, they are rarely employed as Parish Administrators. Now more men are starting to work in these roles, but in and out of my archdiocese (for example) all of the male parish administrators I know of are all Deacons.

The issue isn’t about taking things away from the woman, but it’s making the lay participation in the parishes EQUALLY male and female.

In some parishes, it often feels like unless you are a priest or deacon, men are not welcome in parish leadership. Lay men have different needs from the parish and their voices need to be heard too.

This is what Cardinal Burke is addressing. In my experience: these kinds of parishes are very prevalent in the Northeast. I don’t know about the West and South, but in the Northeast (and Great Lakes region) it often feels like men are not welcome on Liturgy committee, Adult Faith committee, etc.

I pray I’m making sense.

God Bless

 

[clem456]

I think it’s fine that women do this work. Again, someone has to do it. What I object to is the sort of intolerant backlash at men or those who might have different ways of doing things from this particular group of people. It’s not the fact that they are women.

The predominant mindset is what I would call (and I hate labels, but…) progressive. Intolerantly so. The atmosphere in our parish ministry is stifling.

In our parish there are several dynamic younger women who are of a more traditional bent, and they cannot even sniff the desk at the parish office.
It’s too bad. What was “new” is no longer new, and some don’t realize it.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Yes.

 

[edwest2]

kozlosap - I do not believe you properly understand what Cardinal Burke means by this.

In many parishes (not all) women make up the overwhelming majority of the parish lay leadership. They are a majority of the lectors, EMHCs, choir singers, CCD teachers, Adult Faith Formation leaders, parish committee members, paid staff, etc.

The number of women in parish leadership (in many parishes) out numbers the men greatly, even when including the priests.

Unless a man is a Deacon, they are rarely employed as Parish Administrators. Now more men are starting to work in these roles, but in and out of my archdiocese (for example) all of the male parish administrators I know of are all Deacons.

The issue isn’t about taking things away from the woman, but it’s making the lay participation in the parishes EQUALLY male and female.

In some parishes, it often feels like unless you are a priest or deacon, men are not welcome in parish leadership. Lay men have different needs from the parish and their voices need to be heard too.

This is what Cardinal Burke is addressing. In my experience: these kinds of parishes are very prevalent in the Northeast. I don’t know about the West and South, but in the Northeast (and Great Lakes region) it often feels like men are not welcome on Liturgy committee, Adult Faith committee, etc.

I pray I’m making sense.

God Bless

I understand what you’re saying.

Making male and female participation 50-50 will solve what?

And what about parish leadership? 50-50 will solve something?

Do these men speak for themselves about the issues you raise as far as you know?

I suggest you write or call your local Bishop and explain what you see as a need. Wait for his response. We are all part of one body in Christ but men are called to do some things while women are called to do different things or the same things as well.

God is the one doing the calling in the end. Sometimes, I think some - not you - view the Church as having a kind of corporate structure or that it needs one.

God bless,
Ed

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…

In our parish there are several dynamic younger women who are of a more traditional bent, and they cannot even sniff the desk at the parish office.
It’s too bad. What was “new” is no longer new, and some don’t realize it.

clem, could you reiterate? I don’t know what you are meaning to say when you used the phrase “they cannot even sniff the desk”… ?

 

[Xantippe]

I understand what you’re saying.

Making male and female participation 50-50 will solve what?

And what about parish leadership? 50-50 will solve something?

Do these men speak for themselves about the issues you raise as far as you know?

I suggest you write or call your local Bishop and explain what you see as a need. Wait for his response. We are all part of one body in Christ but men are called to do some things while women are called to do different things or the same things as well.

God is the one doing the calling in the end. Sometimes, I think some - not you - view the Church as having a kind of corporate structure or that it needs one.

God bless,
Ed

Yes.

Also, is it true that there are many male candidates panting to be parish secretaries and raise large Catholic families on Catholic parish secretary salaries?

At least part of the reason why non-clerical “professional” Catholic jobs are held predominantly by lay women is that lay men can’t afford to work for the wages on offer. Those jobs don’t offer a “family wage.”

 

[EasterJoy]

Has it ever been the case in the last 500 years that Catholic laymen have been heavily involved in parish life?

I suspect that laymen have never had a large role in Catholic parish, rather than that they had one and have now been elbowed aside by women.

When I was growing up, there were no laypeople as lectors or ministers at the altar, male or female–ergo, all liturgical ministry was done by the priest, a male. The ushers were all men and the altar servers were all boys. The organist was female and the choir director was male. The buildings and grounds were maintained indoors by the women, while the men did things outdoors and anything that required tall ladders or heavy lifting. When there was a fundraising event, it truly was all-hands-on-deck, but the parishioners did divide up into Altar Society (women) and Knights of Columbus (men).

Boys did consider altar serving to be a “male” thing, and there have been parishes that have reported difficulty getting boys to serve when that was not the case. Our parish hasn’t seen this; there have been about equal number of boys and girls serving for many years. The highest predictor of a willingness to be an altar server has not been gender, but whether the family attends Mass at the same Mass time every week. Families that do not regularly attend the same Mass at the same parish every week do not tend to provide volunteers.

It may be that men in general are also less likely to habitually attend the same Mass in the same parish compared to women, and so are less likely to volunteer for roles at Mass now open to the laity. That, in turn, would give men the impression that these volunteer roles are run by women and not welcoming towards men, even when that isn’t a problem at a particular parish. A preponderance of female volunteers for a long time can turn the “run by the women and for the women” concern into a self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

[clem456]

clem, could you reiterate? I don’t know what you are meaning to say when you used the phrase “they cannot even sniff the desk”… ?

Not welcome to participate in decision making or not able to simply work themselves around and through the office. Make copies, find documents, etc…There is an extra layer of bureaucracy to go through.

For example, if a committee is making a decision about something. certain members’ ideas will be heard and considered, but a decision is already made at the 'real meeting".

Making an insert to the bulletin requires “vetting” and editing for some people and not others.

Only certain sources can be used for inspirational quotes etc…

Alternative (name removed by moderator)ut for catechesis is not welcome, for things like first sacramental prep, adult ed, etc… (the pastoral associate in our Catholic parish does not believe in the Real Presence, and no I am absolutely not joking. There is a strong trend in some of today’s pastoral ministry education to downplay fundamental Catholic teaching).

A stranglehold on youth ministry which is stuck in the 1970’s and will accept no substitute to the “new” way (which was old 20 years ago).

 

[on_the_hill]

As a guy who isn’t involved in any aspect of our parish other than to attend Mass and drink coffee while my kids are in CCD, I honestly don’t see a problem. And if there is a problem, it’s probably me.

 

[clem456]

As a guy who isn’t involved in any aspect of our parish other than to attend Mass and drink coffee while my kids are in CCD, I honestly don’t see a problem. And if there is a problem, it’s probably me.

Yea, apathy on the part of men is a huge part of the problem.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Without women, the Church would collapse.

Did someone suggest the Church should be “without women”?

 

[phil19034]

I understand what you’re saying.

Making male and female participation 50-50 will solve what?

And what about parish leadership? 50-50 will solve something?

Do these men speak for themselves about the issues you raise as far as you know?

I suggest you write or call your local Bishop and explain what you see as a need. Wait for his response. We are all part of one body in Christ but men are called to do some things while women are called to do different things or the same things as well.

God is the one doing the calling in the end. Sometimes, I think some - not you - view the Church as having a kind of corporate structure or that it needs one.

God bless,
Ed

I’m not saying that it needs to be 50-50. I’m simply saying that environment should be that men who want to participate should not feel out of place. We should be doing thing to promote men’s groups, boys discipleship groups + girls discipleship groups and women groups. But I also do not feel that men do not voice their concerns. I think they simply fade away. And again - I’m not saying that this happens in all parishes. It does not happen in mine (but it did happen in the one I grew up in - but less so today).

NOTE: I’m not saying that the parishes are the reason why so many men stop going to Church. But we need to find ways to bring them back (men’s groups, etc). Also, when more men are involved in parish life, more boys stay involved in the Church. But when boys feel called to altar server, be a lector, be a CCD teacher, etc but feel like that just for women, there is a problem. MOST of the problem is in the boy/man’s mind. However, the parishes might be unintentionally strengthening that belief.

For example: when Father needs more lectors or servers or EMHCs does he quickly go to TSTs (The Same Twenty or Thirty) who he knows will say yes (who are typically mostly female)? Or does he seek people out who are not currently participating, who he believes will do a great job (whether male or female) and ask them to participate? If a wife is very involved, does Father approach the husband to invite him to become more involved?

Also, when new people do volunteer (whether male or female) are their ideas welcomed by the lay leaders or do the new people feel like all their ideas are always getting shot down?

Again, it’s not about having equal numbers… it’s about feeling like an equal member of the parish community.

 

[clem456]

ON a related topic, researchers have discovered a spike in mortality in men between 45-54 years of age.

Observed causes of increased death rates read like a whos-who of depression demons:
alcoholism, suicide, drug abuse, diabetes etc…
Researchers note this is the age of “mid-life crisis” when men are confronted with the real things of life like illness, pain, death, assessment of success/failure. I don’t have the link but it’s a recent story.

Maybe men need something more fulfilling to do than golf n football