Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[RACJ]

Without women, the Church would collapse. Trying to divide and conquer social dilemmas is rarely successful, but some, such as Cardinal Burke, refuse to acknowledge that fact. In order to flourish and survive, we have to look and move forward, not go backwards into the 19th Century.

Is that what Cardinal Burke said? NO, it is not. The Church would collapse without men as well. The Cardinal lamented the fact that FEMINISTS have become entrenched within the Church, not WOMEN.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…
The church is not feminized. That’s just silly.
I have worked for a pittance for years. This is the first time I’ve EVER been full time. It took 30 years. Women shouldn’t really have to work under those conditions, but married women are more prone to smile and say “yes Father. It’s fine Father”.
I love my job. Don’t shoot the messenger.

I find it really curious that you would (seemingly- maybe you aren’t?) be offended if someone thinks or says the church is feminized.

I don’t see this statement as a put down to women (or rather, the women who work hard to see to it its up and running and functioning), but that its a statement that says the men have mostly abandoned the church and the women have been running it because the men are gone. I don’t see that as a put down to women. I see it as a problem as to wondering why the men have left, or don’t participate.
The whole reason why there were scores of nuns in ages past is that they all worked hard so that the church can continue and were needed- but in my mind the church back in ages past was not so 'feminized'. Of course, i wasn't around back then to make a real opinion on the matter... so maybe it was just the same as it is now. When I hear the OP question "Catholicism- too feminized?", I think 'heavy on the sweet stuff' and not so much on on discipline/guidance/firmness-both are needed, but when its mostly all 'sweet stuff' and no discipline... God help us.

 

[pianistclare]

I find it really curious that you would (seemingly- maybe you aren’t?) be offended if someone thinks or says the church is feminized.

I don’t see this statement as a put down to women (or rather, the women who work hard to see to it its up and running and functioning), but that its a statement that says the men have mostly abandoned the church and the women have been running it because the men are gone. I don’t see that as a put down to women. I see it as a problem as to wondering why the men have left, or don’t participate.

The whole reason why there were scores of nuns in ages past is that they all worked hard so that the church can continue and were needed- but in my mind the church back in ages past was not so 'feminized'.   Of course, i wasn't around back then to make a real opinion on the matter... so maybe it was just the same as it is now.  When I hear the OP question "Catholicism- too feminized?", I think 'heavy on the sweet stuff' and not so much on on discipline/guidance/firmness-both are needed, but when its mostly all 'sweet stuff' and no discipline...  God help us.

So what is “sweet” about the church?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

As an outsider, the notion that the Catholic Church is to “fem” anything is insane. Burke is complaining that a church with exclusively male leadership at every level, where women’s voices are never heard in any council or synod, and where women are completely shut out of secret meetings where new leaders are elected can, in my mind at least, be chalked up to “Well, you can’t please everybody”. Even the KoC is closed to women.

Mind you, this doesn’t offend me as I have no horse in the race and am free to find a church that does utilize the knowledge and experience of women as well as men, should I so choose. But, I do think he’s complaint is a head-scratcher.

 

[edwest2]

Is that what Cardinal Burke said? NO, it is not. The Church would collapse without men as well. The Cardinal lamented the fact that FEMINISTS have become entrenched within the Church, not WOMEN.

That is the problem, not women in general.

reuters.com/article/2015/04/16/us-vatican-nuns-idUSKBN0N71PZ20150416

cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reprimands-us-nuns-over-radical-feminist-themes/

Nuns in the late 1960s and 1970s were not immune to the radicals who spoke as if they meant well, but delivered poison instead. Like: all men, husbands included, are the enemy with one purpose: to keep women down - oppressed.

Like the Blessed Virgin Mary and many, many women saints who heard not the world, but God’s call.

Ed

 

[Xantippe]

I mentioned this thread to my husband and he wanted to know how Holy Mother Church could be over-feminized.

Also, come to think of it, the Church is spoken of as the bride of Christ.

Therefore, one should probably expect the feminine to predominate.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Is that what Cardinal Burke said? NO, it is not. The Church would collapse without men as well. The Cardinal lamented the fact that FEMINISTS have become entrenched within the Church, not WOMEN.

This is exactly the issue as far as I can tell. I think a lot of people on here and otherwise have confused 3rd wave feminism with female influence.

 

[MarcoPolo]

exclusively male leadership at every level, where women’s voices are never heard in any council or synod

First, let me say women’s voices are hardly shut out of councils, especially today. We saw quite a number of women present at and providing (name removed by moderator)ut at the recent synod on the family.

But secondly, I would say the same thing I said to an earlier poster because I think doing a gender head count misses the point. A male pope and clergy is not an indicator of whether or not a church has been feminized. Males are quite capable of making “feminist” decisions, or making decisions that discriminate against men, etc… Simply doing a head count is insufficient.

 

[Xantippe]

First, let me say women’s voices are hardly shut out of councils, especially today. We saw quite a number of women present at and providing (name removed by moderator)ut at the recent synod on the family.

But secondly, I would say the same thing I said to an earlier poster because I think doing a gender head count misses the point. A male pope and clergy is not an indicator of whether or not a church has been feminized. Males are quite capable of making “feminist” decisions, or making decisions that discriminate against men, etc… Simply doing a head count is insufficient.

By the same token, doing a head count of women in parish life isn’t helpful in figuring out whether the parish is “feminized.”

And by the way, “feminized” is a really rude and dismissive term. The assumption behind the term “feminized church” is that women don’t belong in church and that there’s something deeply WRONG with women.

 

[MarcoPolo]

By the same token, doing a head count of women in parish life isn’t helpful in figuring out whether the parish is “feminized.”

And by the way, “feminized” is a really rude and dismissive term. The assumption behind the term “feminized church” is that women don’t belong in church and that there’s something deeply WRONG with women.

Exactly - although I think in the context of Cardinal Burke’s comments and many others, you are correct, out of context, “feminized” may not be the best term to describe what is rather modern “3rd wave feminist” mentality. That’s the type of “feminization” these voices are opposing –– certainly not women per se. The Church is rife with theology of the feminine and the greatest ally to women if anyone wants to give an honest assessment, imho.

 

[Exiled_Child]

The whole question is absurd. Half the humans on Earth are female, right? I don’t understand what the problem is supposed to be…

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Exactly - although I think in the context of Cardinal Burke’s comments and many others, you are correct, out of context, “feminized” may not be the best term to describe what is rather modern “3rd wave feminist” mentality. That’s the type of “feminization” these voices are opposing –– certainly not women per se. The Church is rife with theology of the feminine and the greatest ally to women if anyone wants to give an honest assessment, imho.

He’s talking about liturgy and female alter servers. You’re talking about a “3rd wave feminist mentality”… you’re being more than a little hyperbolic. Don’t worry, the Catholic church is still very firm in it’s teachings and practices on the position of women.

In regards to your other comment…Um, sure, men can make policies that discriminate against men (though a policy that does so is not necessarily feminist and many feminist laws and policies do not, so whatever), but there’s really no evidence that Catholic leadership is making feminist policies and/or policies that discriminate against men.

This is paranoia.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

By the same token, doing a head count of women in parish life isn’t helpful in figuring out whether the parish is “feminized.”

And by the way, “feminized” is a really rude and dismissive term. The assumption behind the term “feminized church” is that women don’t belong in church and that there’s something deeply WRONG with women.

No, my understanding of “feminized” in the context of Church is an overall sense of passivity, over-concern with an approach to vesture that can be summed-up by the old phrase “more lace, more grace,” insufficient emphasis on action-oriented activities vs. things like study groups and video watching, devotion to women saints to the exclusion of male saints known for heroic stands – things like that. An aura of “softness.” No reasonable person is saying that “women don’t belong in church.” To take that view is to avoid dealing with genuine concerns.

 

[Xantippe]

No, my understanding of “feminized” in the context of Church is an overall sense of passivity, over-concern with an approach to vesture that can be summed-up by the old phrase “more lace, more grace,” insufficient emphasis on action-oriented activities vs. things like study groups and video watching, devotion to women saints to the exclusion of male saints known for heroic stands – things like that. An aura of “softness.” No reasonable person is saying that “women don’t belong in church.” To take that view is to avoid dealing with genuine concerns.

Why should all of those things be synonymous with being more feminine?

(Also, bear in mind that Cardinal Burke is probably one of the fanciest Cardinals out there. Try a google image search and you’ll see what I mean.)

Also do they actually make any sense? How passive was, say, St. Teresa of Avila in her daily affairs? (I’ll give you the answer–she was a busy, busy little bee.) Also, there are also a lot of male mystics–is it really true that mysticism is as gendered as you suggest?

Also, speaking as a former teacher, my suspicion about an emphasis on study groups and video-watching is that it’s just plain EASIER to organize and requires less specialized skill. For example, compare and contrast what’s involved in running a book club versus what’s involved in running a Habitat for Humanity crew. Somebody could literally get killed on the crew or they could accidentally wreck the house (leading to massive liability), whereas with book group, the worst thing that’s going to happen is that somebody is going to get a paper cut or eat too many cookies. Also, if nobody shows up to book group, it’s not a big deal, whereas if your volunteers stop showing up to your Habitat for Humanity project, you’ve got a major problem.

I would also add here that I think that your active versus study gender distinction is a little wonky. It’s actually more common for MEN to geek out about the more abstract intellectual aspects of the faith while women are (on average) more interested in good works than in counting angels on pins.

Is it true that there are no heroic female saints and no male saints known for their gentleness and charity? Really! It’s almost as if you don’t know what female heroism looks like…

Again, the very term “feminized” suggests that being feminine is some sort of horrible condition that needs to be kept at bay. I am pretty sure that JPII would not be impressed with the idea.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I mentioned this thread to my husband and he wanted to know how Holy Mother Church could be over-feminized.

Before we can answer this question we have to define masculinity. What does it mean to be a man? What strengths do men have? Are men better suited to certain jobs than women?

Simply put, I would define masculinity as the willingness and ability to sacrifice oneself in order to provide for and protect the weak. If I’m really a man then I don’t sit down until all the women in the room have a seat. I don’t eat if I haven’t first provided adequate food and shelter for my wife and children. If some psycho comes into my home/church/workplace and starts shooting people, I either stop him or die trying.

How could the Church be feminized? If the Church is failing to cultivate a truly masculine attitude among it’s priests and laymen, or promoting feminine qualities at the expense of masculine ones, then the Church is feminized.

 

[pensmama87]

Simply put, I would define masculinity as the willingness and ability to sacrifice oneself in order to provide for and protect the weak. If I’m really a man then I don’t sit down until all the women in the room have a seat. I don’t eat if I haven’t first provided adequate food and shelter for my wife and children. If some psycho comes into my home/church/workplace and starts shooting people, I either stop him or die trying.

That actually doesn’t sound that different from a mother protecting and caring for her children. (Even the last part - ever hear of mama bear instinct?)

 

[Sarcelle]

In our parish, the pastor works with a small group of women to make most of the decisions and formulate our public discourse. They are most exclusively 50-60 year old pastoral ministry graduates. So, a very limited and somewhat intolerant point of view runs the parish.

But, that simply reflects the fact that men are not involved in pastoral ministry much.
So… somebody has to do it. Right? Pastoral ministry should not be “women’s work”, but that’s the way it is seen by many men. And besides, we have pushed women aside for so many eons that when the parish opened up to women, they took the opportunity. So God bless them.

Its not the best in our current situation due to the narrowness, but it’s the way it is.

I must be in a one of a kind parish since most of the lay volunteers are men. There are some women but the vast majority are men.

 

[pianistclare]

Before we can answer this question we have to define masculinity. What does it mean to be a man? What strengths do men have? Are men better suited to certain jobs than women?

Simply put, I would define masculinity as the willingness and ability to sacrifice oneself in order to provide for and protect the weak. If I’m really a man then I don’t sit down until all the women in the room have a seat. I don’t eat if I haven’t first provided adequate food and shelter for my wife and children. If some psycho comes into my home/church/workplace and starts shooting people, I either stop him or die trying.

How could the Church be feminized? If the Church is failing to cultivate a truly masculine attitude among it’s priests and laymen, or promoting feminine qualities at the expense of masculine ones, then the Church is feminized.

The church is for all, man, woman and child.
Christ set it up that way. He spoke about it all the time.
If one has a gender axe to grind, it shouldn’t be in the universal Church.

 

[pianistclare]

Why should all of those things be synonymous with being more feminine?

(Also, bear in mind that Cardinal Burke is probably one of the fanciest Cardinals out there. Try a google image search and you’ll see what I mean.)

Also do they actually make any sense? How passive was, say, St. Teresa of Avila in her daily affairs? (I’ll give you the answer–she was a busy, busy little bee.) Also, there are also a lot of male mystics–is it really true that mysticism is as gendered as you suggest?

Also, speaking as a former teacher, my suspicion about an emphasis on study groups and video-watching is that it’s just plain EASIER to organize and requires less specialized skill. For example, compare and contrast what’s involved in running a book club versus what’s involved in running a Habitat for Humanity crew. Somebody could literally get killed on the crew or they could accidentally wreck the house (leading to massive liability), whereas with book group, the worst thing that’s going to happen is that somebody is going to get a paper cut or eat too many cookies. Also, if nobody shows up to book group, it’s not a big deal, whereas if your volunteers stop showing up to your Habitat for Humanity project, you’ve got a major problem.

I would also add here that I think that your active versus study gender distinction is a little wonky. It’s actually more common for MEN to geek out about the more abstract intellectual aspects of the faith while women are (on average) more interested in good works than in counting angels on pins.

Is it true that there are no heroic female saints and no male saints known for their gentleness and charity? Really! It’s almost as if you don’t know what female heroism looks like…

Again, the very term “feminized” suggests that being feminine is some sort of horrible condition that needs to be kept at bay. I am pretty sure that JPII would not be impressed with the idea.

YES, to all of the above.
Especially the google image search.

 

[Xantippe]

That actually doesn’t sound that different from a mother protecting and caring for her children. (Even the last part - ever hear of mama bear instinct?)

Right.