Catholicism and Alcoholics Anonymous

[CopticChristian]

i used to belong to al-anon because i grew up with an alcoholic father and a mother who was not far behind him. so i know about the 12 steps and i also read the book that they use in AA. my father never knew sobriety, unfortunatey, before he died.
i never could stick with al-anon. i found there were some very unhealthy personalities there and i think there probaby are some good al-anon groups out there, but there are also some bad ones. i attended some AA meetings a few times and having a support group is so important, but i just don’t know if i agree with the 12 step program. especially the part about a higher power, without being specific.
i attended a divorce care group and i liked it, but would have preferred one that was made specifically for Catholics.
in the 12 step program, just saying you need to believe in a higher power is too broad for me.
to each his own, i guess.

7,

Within the context of this thread I believe that if someone believes in AA, then go, and I believe they should spend equal time in Alanon to see the distress that people that are not the alcoholic. It would be a balance of understanding as to the suffering that those involved have to go through. I have attended both and concluded that if someone were to be addicted to AA they should get addicted to Alanon. The truth of the matter is that those that rally behind AA approach it as an addiction, addicted to AA, trading one for another…the addictive behavior remains in my opinion.

Divorce groups have less to do with actions that you took to cause your own problem than dealing with a problem.

In the best of all possible worlds many will find their way back to the OHCAC.

 

[Jerusha]

Excellent perceptions, Coptic. My first AA group, AA and Alanon met at the same time and place-- both met together. A good foundation. Now I apply what I learned from Alanon to another group of addicts who adversely affect American culture. And one that quit drinking without changing the way they think. “Everybody else is wrong, and I am only a victim.”

 

[7_Sorrows]

7,

Within the context of this thread I believe that if someone believes in AA, then go, and I believe they should spend equal time in Alanon to see the distress that people that are not the alcoholic. It would be a balance of understanding as to the suffering that those involved have to go through. I have attended both and concluded that if someone were to be addicted to AA they should get addicted to Alanon. The truth of the matter is that those that rally behind AA approach it as an addiction, addicted to AA, trading one for another…the addictive behavior remains in my opinion.

Divorce groups have less to do with actions that you took to cause your own problem than dealing with a problem.

In the best of all possible worlds many will find their way back to the OHCAC.

by all means, i believe that people who believe in AA or even in Al-Anon should go. i know that both programs have helped thousands and thousands of people. however, i also don’t feel that the programs are for everybody. the literature is really good and like everything else, you have to work at it. living with alcoholism, definitely causes harm to everyone around and you don’t realize it at the time. reading the literature helped me understand why i am the way i am.

 

[CopticChristian]

Excellent perceptions, Coptic. My first AA group, AA and Alanon met at the same time and place-- both met together. A good foundation. Now I apply what I learned from Alanon to another group of addicts who adversely affect American culture. And one that quit drinking without changing the way they think. “Everybody else is wrong, and I am only a victim.”

Jerusha,

This is rare that both meet together. I found too often that the change in thinking is nothing more than stubborn people that just don’t get it. The “old Timers” vs the “Rehab” group is another issue. The people that just go to AA is very different than the Rehab group. AA existed prior to the Rehab and their is a great deal of resentment amongst this crowd.

The thinking in a nutshell is selfishness, something that a good dose of Love God, Love neighbor and do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself would be useful for. A great deal of extracurricular reading from AA is on the Sermon on the Mount, unfortunately written by a whacko…they should just go to the source, learn the Magna Carta…the Sermon on the Mount and go to mass…

 

[CopticChristian]

by all means, i believe that people who believe in AA or even in Al-Anon should go. i know that both programs have helped thousands and thousands of people. however, i also don’t feel that the programs are for everybody. the literature is really good and like everything else, you have to work at it. living with alcoholism, definitely causes harm to everyone around and you don’t realize it at the time. reading the literature helped me understand why i am the way i am.

7,

If this works for you then great. Too much of Psychological and Psychiatric thought is that “insight” causes change and cure. If you understand the way you are then who would argue with that.

Too much time is spent on dysfunctional this and dysfunctional that. Humanity is dysfunctional. There is no such thing as a “normy”. Once you wrap your head around the disordered race of humanity then real changes occur…

I am the way I am because as Paul says…don’t you know that by one man sin entered the world and by one man we were mad righteous…I didn’t cause it and He can cure it.

 

[Jerusha]

The people that just go to AA is very different than the Rehab group. AA existed prior to the Rehab and there is a great deal of resentment amongst this crowd.

Yepper, I am in the old-fashioned group, which is either dying out or dropping out. Rehab and the courts ruined it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yepper, I am in the old-fashioned group, which is either dying out or dropping out. Rehab and the courts ruined it.

Jerusha,

My experience with the Old Fashioned group is that they expect someone to want to change, someone has to be committed and teachable. If someone has no notion of learning something different or believing that someone is going to do it for them…then the only change that comes is the Exodus…Yes the old fashioned folks are fewer and fewer…

 

[Mummsie]

Apparently, I’m also in the old fashioned group. I’ve seen the programs (AA and Al-Anon) work.

I also attempted to read your llink re: Cathoicism and New Age. Only managed about 1/3 of it and decided I’m really not “evolved” enough to even want to read the rest. I had a difficult time connecting the dots between New Age and AA…maybe I should have read further. I just couldn’t. At least I know where to go to look for this info if I need it.

BTW, our church does hold AA and Al-Anon meetings.

Thanks for the challenging questions Coptic Christian. I’m sure I will continue to mull over this conversation.

God Bless.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Mtn,
…
The Thread is Catholicism and AA. I pointed out that the Church has issued a document called:

Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life found here…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

This document states that “addiction and recovery have taken the place of sin and salvation”. This is consistent with reality that alcoholism is not a disease.

…
Alcoholism is not a disease and Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of life states accurately addiction/recovery have taken the place of sin and salvation. This is consistent with the fact that alcoholism is not a disease.

…

So I have nothing to debate. Facts are facts and I suggest everyone read Jesus Christ the bearer of the Water of life and see how that relates to Catholicism and Alcoholics anonymous…this is something I came across in my research…

When I discovered that there were issues with AA and the Church I searced to see if the Church had anything to say on the issue and as always the Chruch has something to say.

If someone would like to find something else that the Church has to say in document as it relates to Alcoholics anonymous contrary to Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of life I am all ears…

Lets stop debating facts.

You have found a valid resource, and deserve to have these points answered. My response follows.

Firstly, there should be a strong presumption against finding that the Church has rejected Alcoholics Anonymous, because AA is well known in Catholic circles, has been known for 70 years, and many priests, religious and laity are active members, and encourage Catholic alcoholics to follow the program, and still do so. For example, Fr Vincent Serpa, answers the question Can a Catholic go to Alcoholics Anonymous? with a firm yes. If one finds a document that appears to reject AA then it needs to be looked at closely to see exactly what it is saying.

Now, let’s look at the document.

1. It is about the New Age phenomenon. Twelve-step programs get only two passing mentions in it. No one could suggest that twelve-step programs have much to do with the New Age. The only relevance of the document then is where some aspects of New Age overlap with some aspects of twelve-stepping. It should be noted that the document itself says that many aspects of New Age also overlap with Catholicism. It’s not intrinsically wrong to overlap with New Age.

From the introduction:

The present study is concerned with the complex phenomenon of “New Age” which is influencing many aspects of contemporary culture.

Also, please note that it is largely informational, rather than doctrinal. It is not a syllabus of errors.

1. Again from the introduction:

The study is a **provisional report. **

Note: emphasis in the original.

So, it should not be read as a formal statement from the Church on anything. It is a provisional report only. As the two references to twelve-steps and addictions are only minor details, one should definitely not read them as formal statements from the church. They could well be removed from a subsequent report.

1. The first passage about twelve step programs is:

Advertising connected with New Age covers a wide range of practices as acupuncture, biofeedback, chiropractic, kinesiology, homeopathy, iridology, massage and various kinds of “bodywork” (such as orgonomy, Feldenkrais, reflexology, Rolfing, polarity massage, therapeutic touch etc.), meditation and visualisation, nutritional therapies, psychic healing, various kinds of herbal medicine, healing by crystals, metals, music or colours, reincarnation therapies and, finally, twelve-step programmes and self-help groups.(25) The source of healing is said to be within ourselves, something we reach when we are in touch with our inner energy or cosmic energy.

.

This reads as a comprehensive “background information” list only. It is not saying that every item here is contrary to Catholicism. For instance, Catholics can have massages, see a chiropractor, attend “self help” groups, etc. However, I would say that it is just plain wrong to include twelve-step programs in this list. “The source of healing is said to be within ourselves” is in contrast to “Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity”. In addition, the strong emphasis in AA on admitting wrongs and making amends is distinctly un-New Age. Some AA’ers are New Ageers, and most aren’t.

1. The second relevant passage is:

New Age imports Eastern religious practices piecemeal and re- interprets them to suit Westerners; this involves a rejection of the language of sin and salvation, replacing it with the morally neutral language of addiction and recovery.

Again, 12-step programs are not New Age, they are not “Eastern religious practices”, and they are not “morally neutral”. Whatever is intended by this passage it should not be read as a rejection of 12-step programs.

I cannot provide you with a single authoritative reference from the highest sources saying that AA is acceptable for Catholics, however, as I said previously, the widespread acceptance, recommendation and use of them by Catholics, including the clergy, would indicate against reading two passing references from a **provisional **document on another subject, as condemnation.

 

[CopticChristian]

Apparently, I’m also in the old fashioned group. I’ve seen the programs (AA and Al-Anon) work.

I also attempted to read your llink re: Cathoicism and New Age. Only managed about 1/3 of it and decided I’m really not “evolved” enough to even want to read the rest. I had a difficult time connecting the dots between New Age and AA…maybe I should have read further. I just couldn’t. At least I know where to go to look for this info if I need it.

BTW, our church does hold AA and Al-Anon meetings.

Thanks for the challenging questions Coptic Christian. I’m sure I will continue to mull over this conversation.

God Bless.

Mummsie,

You old timers just need to get more rest…

Start here…read to the end and then go back to where you left off…

5 JESUS CHRIST OFFERS US THE WATER OF LIFE

The Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ, her Lord. He is at the heart of every Christian action, and every Christian message. So the Church constantly returns to meet her Lord. The Gospels tell of many meetings with Jesus, from the shepherds in Bethlehem to the two thieves crucified with him, from the wise elders who listened to him in the Temple to the disciples walking miserably towards Emmaus. But one episode that speaks really clearly about what he offers us is the story of his encounter with the Samaritan woman by Jacob’s well in the fourth chapter of John’s Gospel; it has even been described as “a paradigm for our engagement with truth”.(86) The experience of meeting the stranger who offers us the water of life is a key to the way Christians can and should engage in dialogue with anyone who does not know Jesus.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Apparently, I’m also in the old fashioned group. I’ve seen the programs (AA and Al-Anon) work.

Call me old-fashioned too.

I also attempted to read your llink re: Cathoicism and New Age. Only managed about 1/3 of it and decided I’m really not “evolved” enough to even want to read the rest. I had a difficult time connecting the dots between New Age and AA…maybe I should have read further. I just couldn’t. At least I know where to go to look for this info if I need it.

I was writing my response while you posted here. The “dots” between New Age and AA are very faint indeed. It’s only a provisional document anyway.

 

[Mummsie]

Mummsie,

You old timers just need to get more rest…

Start here…read to the end and then go back to where you left off…

I will try again tomorrow after I get that much needed rest

 

[Mummsie]

Call me old-fashioned too.

I was writing my response while you posted here. The “dots” between New Age and AA are very faint indeed. It’s only a provisional document anyway.

So glad to hear I wasn’t being totally dense. Also glad to see you and others see the value of AA…not as a religion; but, definitely a pathway to sobriety and hopefully to God.

 

[CopticChristian]

Call me old-fashioned too.

I was writing my response while you posted here. The “dots” between New Age and AA are very faint indeed. It’s only a provisional document anyway.

Edmund,

What you say is true. It is provisional and more will come forth…with respect to your downplaying connecting the dots…the document itself states that the New Age is more than what you coin as connecting the dots to…

But New Age is a broad tradition, which incorporates many ideas which have no explicit link with the change from the Age of Pisces to the Age of Aquarius.

I anticiptate that more will come however I do not see the document changing…

addiction/recovery…comparing it to sin/salvation…

We shall see… for now it is a guide to understanding thoughts that tout “spirituality” and “spiritutal diseases” and in the end nothing will change the fact that…

Jesus is the bearer of the water of life…

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t see any of this as disregarding AA/NA. If something works for you then Amen. I guess its considered a personal success. The OP encountered a conflict of conscious within the confines of this “support group” called AA/NA. The suggestion to find another is “valid”.

Point is there are other methods of addressing this issue and that is a reality. Such as.

Rational Recovery Rational Recovery is a worldwide source of counseling, guidance, and direct instruction on self-recovery from addiction to alcohol and other drugs through planned, permanent abstinence. The group believes that individuals are on their own in staying sober, so there are no meetings or treatment centers as part of the approach. The website provides information about the method (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique® (AVRT®)), frequently asked questions, free information for those trying to stay sober, as well as their families, and information about subscription based services.

Recovery, Inc. Recovery, Inc. is a self-help mental health program based on the work of their founder a neuropsychiatrist, the late Abraham A. Low, M.D. Recovery, Inc. offers its members a free method to regain and maintain their mental health and the program is designed to work in conjunction with professional mental health services. The website provides information and background about the group, links to resources for group members and professionals, forum boards for discussions/support, and a directory of the over 700 group meetings in the U.S. and several other countries.

Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual content of widely available 12-Step programs. SOS takes a secular approach to recovery and maintains that sobriety is a separate issue from religion or spirituality. The website provides more information about the organization, including the history and brochures about the group, as well as links to live meetings around the world.

Smart Recovery SMART Recovery® (Self-Management And Recovery Training) helps people recover from all types of addictive behaviors, including: alcoholism, drug abuse, substance abuse, drug addiction, alcohol abuse, gambling addiction, cocaine addiction, and addiction to other substances and activities. SMART Recovery® offers free face-to-face and online mutual help groups. The website provides more information about the group, as well as links to the 300+ face-to-face meetings offered around the world, 16+ online meetings per week and their online message board for additional support.

There is one constant with all working concepts in recovery…“SUPPORT”. That is what AA/NA is a Support Group.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

AA is a cult, my dad is forced to go to AA three times a week, and he says it’s a cult. I’ve seen some of their stuff it’s kinda’ cultish.

No, it’s not a cult. But AA does replace the addiction to alcohol with a healthier addiction to the 12 Step process and recovery. If your dad is “forced” to go to AA, then he has had problems with the legal system and drinking, and it would be good if he could accept what AA has to offer.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t see any of this as disregarding AA/NA. If something works for you then Amen. I guess its considered a personal success. The OP encountered a conflict of conscious within the confines of this “support group” called AA/NA. The suggestion to find another is “valid”.

Point is there are other methods of addressing this issue and that is a reality. Such as.

Rational Recovery Rational Recovery is a worldwide source of counseling, guidance, and direct instruction on self-recovery from addiction to alcohol and other drugs through planned, permanent abstinence. The group believes that individuals are on their own in staying sober, so there are no meetings or treatment centers as part of the approach. The website provides information about the method (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique® (AVRT®)), frequently asked questions, free information for those trying to stay sober, as well as their families, and information about subscription based services.

Recovery, Inc. Recovery, Inc. is a self-help mental health program based on the work of their founder a neuropsychiatrist, the late Abraham A. Low, M.D. Recovery, Inc. offers its members a free method to regain and maintain their mental health and the program is designed to work in conjunction with professional mental health services. The website provides information and background about the group, links to resources for group members and professionals, forum boards for discussions/support, and a directory of the over 700 group meetings in the U.S. and several other countries.

Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual content of widely available 12-Step programs. SOS takes a secular approach to recovery and maintains that sobriety is a separate issue from religion or spirituality. The website provides more information about the organization, including the history and brochures about the group, as well as links to live meetings around the world.

Smart Recovery SMART Recovery® (Self-Management And Recovery Training) helps people recover from all types of addictive behaviors, including: alcoholism, drug abuse, substance abuse, drug addiction, alcohol abuse, gambling addiction, cocaine addiction, and addiction to other substances and activities. SMART Recovery® offers free face-to-face and online mutual help groups. The website provides more information about the group, as well as links to the 300+ face-to-face meetings offered around the world, 16+ online meetings per week and their online message board for additional support.

There is one constant with all working concepts in recovery…“SUPPORT”. That is what AA/NA is a Support Group.

SMART recovery and Rational recovery are one in the same. The first is free and the latter costs money.

How many Evangelical or Protestants of many stripes will testify that they stopped their bad behavior when they got saved.

Stanton Peele speaks of Spontaneous recovery in Diseasing of America…

The bottom line is you gotta want to stop the bad behavior to stop the bad behavior

 

[CopticChristian]

No, it’s not a cult. But AA does replace the addiction to alcohol with a healthier addiction to the 12 Step process and recovery. If your dad is “forced” to go to AA, then he has had problems with the legal system and drinking, and it would be good if he could accept what AA has to offer.

AA is a religion as declared by the 7th and 9th circuit court of appeals. Being forced to go to AA is not knowing that you have the right to not be forced to go a relgious organization and ask for an alternative like SOS or SMART.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I wasn’t sure what other topic to post this to, so forgive me if it’s misplaced.

I’ve been a member of AA for three years now and a Catholic for a little over two. As I grow more and more in my Catholic faith, I’m starting to have some misgivings about AA. Although I realized that 12-step programs are largely accepted by many Catholics as consistent with Church teaching, I have some major issues that I just can’t seem to get around. I was wondering what other people’s thoughts were.

1. AA encourages people to seek a God of their understanding. We are to pray to a higher power, but get to choose what higher power to pray to. If people don’t like the idea of a higher power, they are told that a doorknob or a chair is acceptable (I’m not joking), or to use G.O.D. standing for “group of drunks” or “good orderly direction” as a higher power. The Big Book itself (the text for AA) says we accept people on the broad road to make things easy. However, this philosophy seems to say that ANY belief in God is equally valid, which explicitly contradicts the words of our Lord that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that none come to the Father except for Him. Christ also tells us that the way is narrow and the path is hard. As a member of AA, I am supposed to reach out to newcomers and introduce them to AA philosophy, sometimes in the role of a personal “sponsor.” I do not feel comfortable telling people that any God is valid and exhorting them to form their own image of God or to even commit the idolatrous act of praying to an object or putting a group of people above them as a higher power.
2. Although not explicitly stated, any reference to Christianity or Jesus, even in sharing one’s own experiences is discouraged in meetings because we don’t want to “scare off” newcomers who might be hostile to the idea of religion. How is this compatible with sharing the Gospel?
3. AA’s sexual ethics are at odds with the Catholic Church. Again, people are encouraged to form their own sexual ethics, with the general idea that anything is OK as long as nobody is hurt.
4. AA does encourage spiritual reflection, examinations of conscience, and confessing sins, but none of this is done with trained, experienced, Christian individuals - only to other AA members, who’s qualifications and trustworthiness is, in my mind, quite suspect.

I personally can find my own way in AA and sort of ignore all this and go ahead and practice my Catholic religion, but since such a big part of AA is spreading the program to newcomers, I just don’t feel comfortable teaching people what to me seems like outright heresy.

Any thoughts? (name removed by moderator)ut from other Catholic members of AA or those familiar with the program is especially welcome.

Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day. I’m a member of Al-Anon and these same principles are brought up frequently. My sponsor is a Christian, not a Catholic, and she and I agree about these things (except confession, which we don’t discuss).

AA and Al-Anon (and Alateen) are programs that include people of ALL faiths, and of NO faith. Many members coming in have had bad experiences with churches, or with the “God of their understanding.” I hear people say quite often in meetings, “I had to get a new God.” Well, we know that there is only ONE God, and it is our flawed human perception that interferes with our image of Him. I don’t like to hear people talk like that, but I understand what they mean. They feel that their parents or whatever examples of faith they had while growing up, gave them such a harsh image of God that a God of mercy seems unbelievable. So they “make up” their own God, which seems like idol worship to me.

The only thing that stops me from quitting Al-Anon is that it is open to EVERYONE who has a problem with someone else’s drinking, and I wouldn’t want it to be any other way. What about Jews, Muslims, and atheists who need the recovery and support? I’m not the one to sponsor them, since I can’t address those issues, but other Jews, Muslims and atheists in the program can.

I don’t sponsor anyone because I don’t live with active drinking and because I have these concerns about “a God of our understanding.”

The program does work, and you can work the Steps as a Catholic. Take what you like and leave the rest, except when it comes to our faith and the One True God!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

p.s. Coptic, I would say that one of the reasons alcoholism is viewed as a disease is that it is only arrested, never cured, by abstaining from drinking. There are countless stories of alcoholics who have been sober for years, gone back out and started drinking again, and rapidly progressed into cirrhosis, dementia, etc. as if they had CONTINUED to drink the entire time they were sober. The disease did not go away. It was merely dormant, and when the sober alcoholic resumed drinking, it made up for the lost time and increased in strength.

That is not explained if alcoholism is not a disease.