Catholicism and Alcoholics Anonymous

[TheRealJuliane]

One more thing:

If anyone is at a meeting where members are talking about being “recovering Catholics,” or “recovered Catholics,” it’s time to intervene and remind the members that discussing religion is against the principles of the program. I used to hear this occasionally and invariably, after one person had said anything like “recovering Catholic,” others would jump in and agree with them and it became a Catholic-bash. I now take a deep breath, raise my hand and remind the meeting that mentioning a specific religion can cause members to walk out and never return. That there are happy Catholics sitting among them who are highly, HIGHLY insulted by this offhand denigration of our faith. And that they should never speak of a specific religion in a negative way in meetings.

 

[applemanila]

no one forces you to attend the aa fellowship. its a choice.

 

[Jerusha]

If anyone is at a meeting where members are talking about being “recovering Catholics,” or “recovered Catholics,” it’s time to intervene and remind the members that discussing religion is against the principles of the program.

But we also have to ask ourselves the question, “What was it in my faith, growing up, that, misapplied, contributed to my drinking?” or “What conflicts were there between faith and world, that contributed to my drinking?” Perhaps, not making the question specific to any one faith, that would be a better topic for discussion.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I think there is a lot that can be said in response to the OP. I have not read the four pages of responses and so I’m not sure if I am repeating sentiments already expressed.

I think that alcoholics in general are a judgmental bunch, hence the OP’s post. (Try not to judge me for writing that.)

I think that AA is a program that an individual works. That is, in following the steps can an alcoholic stop their addictive behavior. While the final steps involve “bringing the message to the alocholic that still suffers” such is done with an eye toward one’s own recovery and a realization of just how chaotic an alcoholic’s life truly is and the suffering that they experience.

One of the facts about AA is that it permits people to be “met where they are at”. Whether a person is sober or a raging alcholic when they attend a meeting, “all are welcome and none are judged.” Where a person is “At” often times means, a place that has zero spirituality, therefore the mere notion of God can be too much for such a person to begin to comprehend. I find it hard to believe that there is much discussion of a higher power being a “doorknob”, as that would make Step 3 nearly impossible.

I have seen people who had zero sense of God have true conversion experiences as a result of working the Steps.

 

[CopticChristian]

Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day. I’m a member of Al-Anon and these same principles are brought up frequently. My sponsor is a Christian, not a Catholic, and she and I agree about these things (except confession, which we don’t discuss).

AA and Al-Anon (and Alateen) are programs that include people of ALL faiths, and of NO faith. Many members coming in have had bad experiences with churches, or with the “God of their understanding.” I hear people say quite often in meetings, “I had to get a new God.” Well, we know that there is only ONE God, and it is our flawed human perception that interferes with our image of Him. I don’t like to hear people talk like that, but I understand what they mean. They feel that their parents or whatever examples of faith they had while growing up, gave them such a harsh image of God that a God of mercy seems unbelievable. So they “make up” their own God, which seems like idol worship to me.

The only thing that stops me from quitting Al-Anon is that it is open to EVERYONE who has a problem with someone else’s drinking, and I wouldn’t want it to be any other way. What about Jews, Muslims, and atheists who need the recovery and support? I’m not the one to sponsor them, since I can’t address those issues, but other Jews, Muslims and atheists in the program can.

I don’t sponsor anyone because I don’t live with active drinking and because I have these concerns about “a God of our understanding.”

The program does work, and you can work the Steps as a Catholic. Take what you like and leave the rest, except when it comes to our faith and the One True God!

You may want to investigate the success that the spread of AA has had with Mormons, Muslims and Jews…it is an interesting investigation.

Take what you want and leave the rest behind or take what you want and leave.

 

[CopticChristian]

p.s. Coptic, I would say that one of the reasons alcoholism is viewed as a disease is that it is only arrested, never cured, by abstaining from drinking. There are countless stories of alcoholics who have been sober for years, gone back out and started drinking again, and rapidly progressed into cirrhosis, dementia, etc. as if they had CONTINUED to drink the entire time they were sober. The disease did not go away. It was merely dormant, and when the sober alcoholic resumed drinking, it made up for the lost time and increased in strength.

That is not explained if alcoholism is not a disease.

Real,

Alcoholism is not a disease. It has been declared to be a disease and if you review the history of this you will discover that the nation has been duped into thinking it is a disease. Stanton Peele, PhD is a friend on my Facebook. I have spoken to him. He has YouTube videos and he wrote “Diseasing of America”…You may want to do a search for him and find his site and read his stuff. It is not now or ever been a disease.

This thread is about Catholicism and AA and in that context take a look at our Catechism…

ARTICLE 5

THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not kill.54

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, “You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.” But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.55

2258 "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."56

Respect for health

2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.
Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.

2289 If morality requires respect for the life of the body, it does not make it an absolute value. It rejects a neo-pagan notion that tends to promote the cult of the body, to sacrifice everything for its sake, to idolize physical perfection and success at sports. By its selective preference of the strong over the weak, such a conception can lead to the perversion of human relationships.

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

You may not know this but the secular world including AA, courts and others call alcoholics and the like those suffering from chronic **Intemperance…**ring a bell?

So in the context of Catholicism and AA. Alcoholism is chronic intemperance, a sin, contrary to Moral Law, contrary to the commandments, and in the context of Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life…sin/salvation is the norm and addiction/recovery is not.

 

[CopticChristian]

One more thing:

If anyone is at a meeting where members are talking about being “recovering Catholics,” or “recovered Catholics,” it’s time to intervene and remind the members that discussing religion is against the principles of the program. I used to hear this occasionally and invariably, after one person had said anything like “recovering Catholic,” others would jump in and agree with them and it became a Catholic-bash. I now take a deep breath, raise my hand and remind the meeting that mentioning a specific religion can cause members to walk out and never return. That there are happy Catholics sitting among them who are highly, HIGHLY insulted by this offhand denigration of our faith. And that they should never speak of a specific religion in a negative way in meetings.

Real,

Thank you for the confirmation of what I know. There are no restrictions on what can be said by anyone individual at a meeting. What do you do when the recovering Catholic starts talking about…I was lost until I found Jesus at my local non-denominational Church…this happens too. There is no cross talk. It is an insane meeting sitting in a circle waiting for your turn, biting your lip as you listen to who knows what. Then there is the guy who “double dips” because there is something so urgent to say…what are the rules on that?

SMART is cross talk, intervening, conversational and more realistic, like a family gathering. If you like being bound by this circular unnatural means of communication, take your turn nonsense go for it.

 

[CopticChristian]

no one forces you to attend the aa fellowship. its a choice.

You are wrong. Courts and licensing agencies force people to go to AA and it is not a choice. Prisoners are coerced. You may want to read “Resisting 12 step Coercion”
, found here

amazon.com/Resisting-12-Step-Coercion-Participation-Treatment/dp/1884365175

 

[CopticChristian]

But we also have to ask ourselves the question,** “What was it in my faith, growing up, that, misapplied, contributed to my drinking?” **or “What conflicts were there between faith and world, that contributed to my drinking?” Perhaps, not making the question specific to any one faith, that would be a better topic for discussion.

Jerusha,

This is the Psychological look back that is intended to provide insight to present problems. How about I am an adult, what happened in the past, happened in the past, I make choices today and there are consequences to my choice.

From AA “You can’t change the past but you can learn from it”…in other words what bad choice led to this. What choice can I make that will not yield that result. Your misapplied faith is not responsible for a bad choice, you are. I do not mean to direct this to you but to you in general.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think there is a lot that can be said in response to the OP. I have not read the four pages of responses and so I’m not sure if I am repeating sentiments already expressed.

I think that alcoholics in general are a judgmental bunch, hence the OP’s post. (Try not to judge me for writing that.)

I think that AA is a program that an individual works. That is, in following the steps can an alcoholic stop their addictive behavior. While the final steps involve “bringing the message to the alocholic that still suffers” such is done with an eye toward one’s own recovery and a realization of just how chaotic an alcoholic’s life truly is and the suffering that they experience.

One of the facts about AA is that it permits people to be “met where they are at”. Whether a person is sober or a raging alcholic when they attend a meeting, “all are welcome and none are judged.” Where a person is “At” often times means, a place that has zero spirituality, therefore the mere notion of God can be too much for such a person to begin to comprehend. I find it hard to believe that there is much discussion of a higher power being a “doorknob”, as that would make Step 3 nearly impossible.

I have seen people who had zero sense of God have true conversion experiences as a result of working the Steps.

Tighty,

You cannot attend a meeting if you are a “raging alcoholic”…I saw too many active drinkers attend meetings trying to use the meeting to stop. You have to stop drinking to attend. This is the rehab “treatment”. Putting you in a facility where there are no substances allows you to stop and attend the meetings.

The question is what is spirituality in this context. Yes there are conversions and most that I saw were to Protestant thought and many from the Catholic Faith. In my opinion it is a near occasion of sin. More on this later.

The Big Book has a Chapter “to the agnostic”…what a bunch of bull. If this were just about not drinking why the Chapter on this. The point is there is an undercurrent to find God. OK, however tragically not all remain in the Catholic Faith, and many are drawn to Protestant thought…I cannot recall one Mormon, Muslim, Athiest, BaHai, Jew…most are “born again” Bible thumping people…you may not know this but there is a Book with Bible verses that correlate with the steps.

You also may not know this but the Big Book talks about “character defects”…what in the heck is that…when you read the companion to the Big Book…it clearly states…

Character defects=SIN…so we are back to addiction/recovery and sin/salvation.

If you sin go to Confession and go to the OHCAC, and find Jesus Christ the bearer of the water of Life.

 

[CopticChristian]

I wasn’t sure what other topic to post this to, so forgive me if it’s misplaced.

I’ve been a member of AA for three years now and a Catholic for a little over two.

**3. AA’s sexual ethics are at odds with the Catholic Church. Again, people are encouraged to form their own sexual ethics, with the general idea that anything is OK as long as nobody is hurt. **4. AA does encourage spiritual reflection,

I personally can find my own way in AA and sort of ignore all this and go ahead and practice my Catholic religion, but since such a big part of AA is spreading the program to newcomers, I just don’t feel comfortable teaching people what to me seems like outright heresy.

Any thoughts? (name removed by moderator)ut from other Catholic members of AA or those familiar with the program is especially welcome.

I am familiar with AA.

One of the problems with AA is the approach to honesty. Be dirt honest. Confess all your wrongdoings. Get your side of the street clean. Make an effort to look and see all you have harmed, with one exception.

ARTICLE 6

THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not commit adultery.113
You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.114

IV. OFFENSES AGAINST THE DIGNITY OF MARRIAGE

Adultery

2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.172 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.173

2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union.

In the AA Big Book, much emphasis is laid on the importance of honesty: “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has the capacity to be honest,” it says right at the beginning of Chapter Four entitled “How It Works.” However, when it comes to the question of making amends, the founders emphasized caution, suggesting in Step Nine that it is a good idea to make direct amends “except when do to so would injure themselves or others.” This sentence has generally been interpreted to mean that, since it would injure the wife to find out about her husband’s affairs, it would therefore be better not to tell her.

Founder Bill W. writes on page 81: “If we are sure our wife does not know, should we tell her? Not always, we think.” The basic idea here is that the alcoholic should tell the truth about infidelities to his sponsor and to God, then pray for forgiveness and the willingness to change his ways.

However, as Dr. Jennifer Schneider points out in her 1998 article “Surviving Disclosure of Infidelity,” published in the Journal of Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, it is likely that AA founder Bill W’s inconsistency on the question of honesty may well have derived from his own personal struggles with sexual addiction, which was not a recognized disorder at the time. She quotes Nan Robertson, author of Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous (1988), as follows:

“Particularly during his sober decades in AA in the forties, fifties, and sixties, Bill Wilson was a compulsive womanizer. His flirtations and his adulterous behavior filled him with guilt, but he continued to stray off the reservation. His last and most serious love affair . . . began when he was in his sixties. She was important to him until the end of his life, and was remembered in a financial agreement with AA. (p. 36)”

So this is what is being taught in AA. This is not consistent with the teachings of the Church as it concerns sin/salvation. Be honest but not too honest. Attending AA would be considered a near occasion of sin.

 

[CopticChristian]

You have found a valid resource, and deserve to have these points answered. My response follows.

Firstly, there should be a strong presumption against finding that the Church has rejected Alcoholics Anonymous, because AA is well known in Catholic circles, has been known for 70 years, and many priests, religious and laity are active members, and encourage Catholic alcoholics to follow the program, and still do so. For example, Fr Vincent Serpa, answers the question Can a Catholic go to Alcoholics Anonymous? with a firm yes. If one finds a document that appears to reject AA then it needs to be looked at closely to see exactly what it is saying.

Now, let’s look at the document.

1. It is about the New Age phenomenon. Twelve-step programs get only two passing mentions in it. No one could suggest that twelve-step programs have much to do with the New Age. The only relevance of the document then is where some aspects of New Age overlap with some aspects of twelve-stepping. It should be noted that the document itself says that many aspects of New Age also overlap with Catholicism. It’s not intrinsically wrong to overlap with New Age.

From the introduction:

Also, please note that it is largely informational, rather than doctrinal. It is not a syllabus of errors.

1. Again from the introduction:

Note: emphasis in the original.

So, it should not be read as a formal statement from the Church on anything. It is a provisional report only. As the two references to twelve-steps and addictions are only minor details, one should definitely not read them as formal statements from the church. They could well be removed from a subsequent report.

1. The first passage about twelve step programs is:

.

This reads as a comprehensive “background information” list only. It is not saying that every item here is contrary to Catholicism. For instance, Catholics can have massages, see a chiropractor, attend “self help” groups, etc. However, I would say that it is just plain wrong to include twelve-step programs in this list. “The source of healing is said to be within ourselves” is in contrast to “Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity”. In addition, the strong emphasis in AA on admitting wrongs and making amends is distinctly un-New Age. Some AA’ers are New Ageers, and most aren’t.

1. The second relevant passage is:

Again, 12-step programs are not New Age, they are not “Eastern religious practices”, and they are not “morally neutral”. Whatever is intended by this passage it should not be read as a rejection of 12-step programs.

I cannot provide you with a single authoritative reference from the highest sources saying that AA is acceptable for Catholics, however, as I said previously, the widespread acceptance, recommendation and use of them by Catholics, including the clergy, would indicate against reading two passing references from a **provisional **document on another subject, as condemnation.

I agree and as you will find with what I know you will see that the document is a reference for a point of examination of what is and what people should know. Sin/Salvation vs Addiction/Recovry.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well since Stanton Peele is mentioned.

Despite the numerous studies validating the disease model of alcoholism, controversy still exists. In his 1989 book, Diseasing of America, social psychologist Stanton Peele, Ph.D., argues that AA and for-profit alcohol treatment centers promote the “myth” of alcoholism as a lifelong disease. He contends that the disease concept “excuses alcoholics for their past, present, and future irresponsibility” and points out that most people can overcome addiction on their own. He concludes that the only effective response to alcoholism and other addictions is “to recreate living communities that nurture the human capacity to lead constructive lives.”

Dr. Peele’s view that alcoholism is a personal conduct problem, rather than a disease, seems to be more prevalent among medical practitioners than among the public. A recent Gallop poll found that almost 90 percent of Americans believe that alcoholism is a disease. In contrast, physicians’ views of alcoholism were reviewed at an August 1997 conference held by the International Doctors of Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA). A survey of physicians reported at that conference found that 80 percent of responding doctors perceived alcoholism as simply bad behavior.

 

[Keith_W_OR_USA]

I wasn’t sure what other topic to post this to, so forgive me if it’s misplaced.

I’ve been a member of AA for three years now and a Catholic for a little over two. As I grow more and more in my Catholic faith, I’m starting to have some misgivings about AA. Although I realized that 12-step programs are largely accepted by many Catholics as consistent with Church teaching, I have some major issues that I just can’t seem to get around. I was wondering what other people’s thoughts were.

In AA you can take whatever you want to use and leave what you don’t to use. It is your own individual program. Don’t put too much into the theology, but in maintaining your sobriety. For me AA didn’t work overall, but I was able to adopt some things that did help me and I obtained professional outside help for my recovery from alcohol abuse.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well since Stanton Peele is mentioned.

**Despite the numerous studies validating the disease model of alcoholism, controversy still exists. **In his 1989 book, Diseasing of America, social psychologist Stanton Peele, Ph.D., argues that AA and for-profit alcohol treatment centers promote the “myth” of alcoholism as a lifelong disease. He contends that the disease concept “excuses alcoholics for their past, present, and future irresponsibility” and points out that most people can overcome addiction on their own. He concludes that the only effective response to alcoholism and other addictions is “to recreate living communities that nurture the human capacity to lead constructive lives.”

Dr. Peele’s view that alcoholism is a personal conduct problem, rather than a disease, seems to be more prevalent among medical practitioners than among the public. A recent Gallop poll found that almost 90 percent of Americans believe that alcoholism is a disease. In contrast, physicians’ views of alcoholism were reviewed at an August 1997 conference held by the International Doctors of Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA). A survey of physicians reported at that conference found that 80 percent of responding doctors perceived alcoholism as simply bad behavior.

Gary,

Are you quoting Peele that there are studies validating or are you quoting someone else. Whether or not the studies validate depend on who did the studies since studies have flaws. I have a copy of diseasing on my shelf. Is this in the book? I will look to see what it says in context? I could also send him a personal message to see if he agrees with the statement. Help me out here.

By the way Stanton is a Phd/Lawyer.

That means that I am in the majority 80%. There are always two sides to the coin.

 

[CopticChristian]

In AA you can take whatever you want to use and leave what you don’t to use. It is your own individual program. Don’t put too much into the theology, but in maintaining your sobriety. For me AA didn’t work overall, but I was able to adopt some things that did help me and I obtained professional outside help for my recovery from alcohol abuse.

Keith,

In terms of Catholisicm and AA then the question is does it work. Stanton Peele states that there is such a thing as Spontaneous recovery. People just stop on their own. Now if there was something like a great percentage of success then the Church should be behind it. On the other hand what is the success rate?

Anonymous GSO (General Services Office), based on an analysis of a survey period that ran for 12 years:

“After just one month in the Fellowship, 81% of the new members have already dropped out. After three months, 90% have left, and 95% have discontinued attendance inside one year.” (Kolenda, 2003, Golden Text Publishing Company).

**
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own **

There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as “Things were building up” or “I was sick and tired of it.” Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.

**Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).) **

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
“About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment.”

http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1587/1/Estimates-of-AAs-Effectiveness/Page1.html

The true success rate of AA is very probably somewhere between these two extremes, depending, of course, on how one defines “success”; that is, AA’s success rate is probably somewhere between 2.9% and 7% (of those who have attended AA).

So as long as everyone knows that there is benefit from going to AA and they are aware of Church teachings and the dangers in AA, by all means go to meetings.

Just know that 10% success is like doing nothing.

 

[CopticChristian]

no one forces you to attend the aa fellowship. its a choice.

Apple,

Here are the cases that have ruled AA is a religion. Now this brings into question what the Catechism says about attending Non-Catholic Services…I am looking for that…but you may want to look up and read these cases…

Inouye vs Namori, 9th Circuit court

8] By 2001, two circuit courts, at least three district courts,
and two state supreme courts had all considered whether prisoners
or parolees could be forced to attend religion-based
treatment programs. Their unanimous conclusion was that
such coercion was unconstitutional.

In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that “requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment,” the court said. “While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state.”
The 12 steps suggested for participants in both programs include an acknowledgment that “a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity” and a promise to “turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.” They also call for prayer and meditation.

Friday’s 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father, Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug sentence in November 2000.
A Buddhist, he objected to religiously oriented drug treatment in prison, sued state officials over the issue and told Hawaii parole authorities just before his release that he would object to any condition that included a treatment program with religious content.

QUOTE]

**Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674 (June 11, 1996)./

CONSTITUTIONAL LAW - ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE - ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
ISSUE & DISPOSITION**

Issue
Whether an inmate’s expanded visitation privileges may be conditioned upon mandatory participation in a substance abuse rehabilitation program based on the religious-oriented practices of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Disposition

No. Petitioner’s mandated attendance at the ASAT Program and the lack of a non-religious alternative violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendmentto the United States Constitution. The order of the Appellate Division is reversed, and Petitioner’s participation in the Family Reunion Program cannot be conditioned on his continued attendance at the ASAT Program as long as the program contains a religious component.

Mandates for AA/NA and the like are done, people are coerced and it is unconstitutional because it is a Religion. If it is a religion then Catholics should know about attending non-Catholic services.

The usuall meeting says the Lord’s Prayer holding hands…why here?

 

[Jerusha]

From AA “You can’t change the past but you can learn from it”…in other words what bad choice led to this. What choice can I make that will not yield that result. Your misapplied faith is not responsible for a bad choice, you are. I do not mean to direct this to you but to you in general.

I take no offense at that. Many times we allow our beliefs to morph to allow the behavior without a guilty conscience. Thus, the process of straying initially involves some heresy. Eating a bit of the apple and claiming to know good and evil within oneself, without reference to God.

 

[CopticChristian]

p.s. Coptic, I would say that one of the reasons alcoholism is viewed as a disease is that it is only arrested, never cured, by abstaining from drinking. There are countless stories of alcoholics who have been sober for years, gone back out and started drinking again, and rapidly progressed into cirrhosis, dementia, etc. as if they had CONTINUED to drink the entire time they were sober. The disease did not go away. It was merely dormant, and when the sober alcoholic resumed drinking, it made up for the lost time and increased in strength.

That is not explained if alcoholism is not a disease.

Real,

The OHCAC teaches temperance is a virtue and sin and salvation. Here is the rub. I hope everyone can wrap their head around this and realize what they are accepting. Accept it if you will or not. I pray someone tries to prove me wrong and in doing so will be convinced that I am not.

Alcholism is not a disease. Never was and never will be.

If you accept the disease model then you accept AA.

If you accept AA then you accept the disease model.

SMART, AVRT, SOS, CBT and any other mode of addressing this problem does not invoke the disease model. OK:thumbsup:

I pointed out that AA is a religion based on our court system. I pointed out that the success rates are minimal at best. Here is another person I came across in my journey.

Dr. Reed Hester…

behaviortherapy.com/

scroll down to the bottom of that page and click on what works or click here…

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

Brief intervention
Motivational enhancement
GABA agonist (Acamprosate)

these are at the top of the list as effective…

as opposed to AA/12 steps ranking 37 and 38 effective

Notice when you click on alternatives you are taken to AA, not the only way

aanottheonlyway.com/

So in summary Accept Disease=Accept AA, Accept AA=Accept Disease

or consider it is behavior, sin and salvation are at hand.

 

[Jerusha]

But, some have difficulty understanding that totally abstaining from alcohol is the solution for THEM, while others can drink and not have problems. By reframing it as a disease, they can accept that concept. I cannot separate spirituality from medicine. I guess it is my wholistic approach, which the paper you present attacks. Spiritually speaking, the best way to overcome sin is by practicing the opposite virtue-- temperance for alcohol abuse, patience for anger, trust for fear, gratitude for jealousy, etc. I call those “medicines.” Is a diabetic who refuses to take insulin sinning, or sick? Both.