Catholicism and Alcoholics Anonymous

[CopticChristian]

But, some have difficulty understanding that totally abstaining from alcohol is the solution for THEM, while others can drink and not have problems. By reframing it as a disease, they can accept that concept. I cannot separate spirituality from medicine. I guess it is my wholistic approach, which the paper you present attacks. Spiritually speaking, the best way to overcome sin is by practicing the opposite virtue-- temperance for alcohol abuse, patience for anger, trust for fear, gratitude for jealousy, etc. I call those “medicines.” Is a diabetic who refuses to take insulin sinning, or sick? Both.

Jerusha,

If something is a disease then call it a disease. If it is not why call it a disease. Here is the down side that I have seen so often. “I can’t help it”…in a loud angry voice…“I have a disease”…angry voice…Disease=No Responsibility.

Diabetics. It is genetic. There are two types, juvenille and Adult onset. In the Juvenille they learn early on that their problem requires insulin, diet, etc. Mary Tyler Moore is this type.

Adult onset diabetes is usually associated with obesity, alcoholism or some other problem. It is brought on by something. Many of these people take little responsibility for their diabetes, have a hard time losing weight, managing their insulin and end up in the hospital with Diabetic Ketoacidosis, Hyperosmolar coma, infection, and the consequences of diabetes. You see this lots in the reservation indians that unfortunately drink excessively and are obese.

With diabetes, there is no halting the progression of the disease with insulin, it is just managed with diet and insulin or diet alone. Their are oral preperations as well. One of the reasons for surgery for morbid obesity is it cures the diabetes. So, with diabetes, there are metabolic consequences that require something that is missing and education about diet.

Do you actually believe that calling something a disease they believe it and act on it…then why the failure rate with the only treatment that is hooked into the disease model AA.

Treatment. What is that?

Read a Book
Go to a meeting, talk, and label yourself by you behavior akin to the Scarlet Letter
Talk to someone that is higher in the pecking order
Admit you have no power over Carbon-Oxygen-Hydrogen
Do an examination of conscience
Love neighbor as yourself
Have a spiritual awakening, whatever that means
Teach someone else this nonsense

In this paradigme there is nothing being offered other than insight and then we are back to the Psych/Freud model of insight brings understanding and change and we know that Freud was whack.

So you go through this “treatment”, actually “brain washing” and then accept a failure rate of 90%…if you had a disease and someone told you up front…you know there is a 90% failure rate with this treatment, and then you found out what the treatment entailed, would you not want a second opinion…?

Hey…let me brain wash you and I can promise no more than a 10% chance that it is going to do any good and you have to commit to it daily and the rest of your life. Forever and a day you are going to be labeled by your behavior…whada ya say…sound good or

let’s go to Church, find Jesus, spend some time doing some other stuff and then you are just making bad choices…

 

[Jerusha]

This is where the tendency to justify and rationalize steps in-- no matter what the problem is, or how it is cognitively framed. Disease means taking responsibility for what one has to do for a cure/amelioration. That does not matter whether the disease comes from circumstances over which has no control, or if it is a result of neglect of one’s health. Although it is important to be more assertive with the second type than the first.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Real,

The OHCAC teaches temperance is a virtue and sin and salvation. Here is the rub. I hope everyone can wrap their head around this and realize what they are accepting. Accept it if you will or not. I pray someone tries to prove me wrong and in doing so will be convinced that I am not.

Alcholism is not a disease. Never was and never will be.

If you accept the disease model then you accept AA.

If you accept AA then you accept the disease model.

SMART, AVRT, SOS, CBT and any other mode of addressing this problem does not invoke the disease model. OK:thumbsup:

I pointed out that AA is a religion based on our court system. I pointed out that the success rates are minimal at best. Here is another person I came across in my journey.

Dr. Reed Hester…

behaviortherapy.com/

scroll down to the bottom of that page and click on what works or click here…

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

Brief intervention
Motivational enhancement
GABA agonist (Acamprosate)

these are at the top of the list as effective…

as opposed to AA/12 steps ranking 37 and 38 effective

Notice when you click on alternatives you are taken to AA, not the only way

aanottheonlyway.com/

So in summary Accept Disease=Accept AA, Accept AA=Accept Disease

or consider it is behavior, sin and salvation are at hand.

OK, then tell me why something that isn’t a disease, would cause the person’s health and mental capacity to RAPIDLY diminish when the substance is resumed after a period of abstinence, even if the quantity of substance consumed does not change? What I mean is, an alcoholic who has been abstinent for 20 years can go back out drinking and not drink any more in terms of quantity, than he did when he stopped drinking, yet even in abstinence, it seems as if the disease is still progressing and rapidly takes over the alcoholic. From there, they seem to go downhill quite rapidly.

You have a personal vendetta against AA, and I can understand that, but I don’t think there are many good explanations for this progression of the disease.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is where the tendency to justify and rationalize steps in-- no matter what the problem is, or how it is cognitively framed. ** Disease means taking responsibility for what one has to do for a cure/amelioration.** That does not matter whether the disease comes from circumstances over which has no control, or if it is a result of neglect of one’s health. Although it is important to be more assertive with the second type than the first.

Jerusha,

Where did you get this idea about disease? Where does responsibility come into play when you are infected with HIV through no fault of your own? What responsibility do you place here. You accept it. You follow through and I would imagine that compliance is greater than with AA/12 steps.

As an aside one of the other people I came across in my journey was Dick B. Recall that AA was Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson. The Dr. Bob side was the religous side.

dickb.com/index.html#The_Dick_B._Christian_Recovery_Guide,_2d_ed.

If anyone doubts that AA is a religion read Dick B. If it is Protestant then why are we using a Protestant service to treat a disease that is not a disease?

 

[The_Bucket]

Addiction is a very, very real thing. But I’d say it’s far more a spiritual sickness than an actual physical disease. Nevertheless, like a disease it requires treatment. It requires a total re-orienting of one’s life and an embrace of the fact that you can’t correct the problem on your own. And that’s quite true. When you’re addicted hook, line and sinker to something destroying your soul (unlike cigarettes for instance) then there is little that will can do to stop it. Only God can intervene. Personally I think a gigantic religious conversion would work better than AA but one step at a time right?

I’m a take what you want a leave the rest kind of person when it comes to the whole group of “Anonymous” organizations. But I tend to think that despite the reclassification as a “disease” that denying personal responsibility violates the credo of AA/NA, etc. Isn’t one of the steps “be honest when you’ve done wrong and seek out those you have wronged and make amends”? I daresay blaming some disease that you didn’t cause or something goes against that.

The concept of rigorous honesty is absolutely critical for addicts who consciously or unconsciously blame everyone but themselves for their predicaments.

 

[Jerusha]

Where does responsibility come into play when you are infected with HIV through no fault of your own? What responsibility do you place here. You accept it.

We are into semantics, here. My meaning is compliance=responsibility. It does not matter how one acquired the disease. Only what one does about it. You are using responsibility in the context of accepting consequences for sin. I say that once one has repented, then what they do about it is what makes the difference.

As for what Mormon cultural influence had to do with my drinking problem, I am grateful for that cultural value. I quit drinking relatively early. Of course, I had to live with “I am sinful slime” for years, but at least I did not drink.

 

[johnnyjones]

8 years of AA and a few indoctrinating rehabs later I’m the better for it. There are some “conflicts” with the historic Christian faith but they are easily understood in the right context. Although you are encouraged to follow all their methods, you don’t have to. The thust is sobriety and many active alcoholics are not very structured, therefor needing a rigid set of principles.

But as I said, even according to their own literature (The “Living Sober” book) , “take what works for you and leave the rest” if the program is somehow challenging your catholicism. Remember, your only a member if you say your a member.

 

[The_Bucket]

The thust is sobriety and many active alcoholics are not very structured, therefor needing a rigid set of principles.

Exactly. Addicts of all kind live totally disorganized and chaotic lives even if they seem well put-together on the surface. Implementing some kind of structure and rigorous honesty is absolutely necessary if they are to live a new and sober way.

I’m not a fan of everything the “Anonymous” groups say but I have to concede that it’s a very good start for many people. Demanding that addicts give up control to God is something that is so incredibly tough for addicts who insist that they don’t need help, they can manage themselves, etc. It’s just not true. We all need God and addicts especially need Him. As a Catholic I’d strongly discourage embracing every aspect of AA/NA/etc but there is plenty of good and important stuff in there.

 

[The_Bucket]

And one last note, I think talking to other people dealing with similar problems is extremely helpful. You recognize that you have your cross and others have theirs. It helps eliminate shame and judgmental behavior, provided you have the right attitude of course. Reconciliation is wonderful to remove the sin but the emotional guilt can linger well beyond the confessional and it’s a huge avenue for Satan to pull addicts right back down into the pit.

Confession can also be anonymous, far more anonymous than AA-type groups. Addicts there have to stare other people in the face and admit what they did and how it ruined innocent people’s lives. Personally I think owning up to addictions needs to be more public to work in order to get past crippling shame.

Moving past guilt and shame to sorrow for past evils and accepting the consequences of those actions is a critical part of becoming a healthier person and a healthier Christian.

 

[Jerusha]

Personally I think owning up to addictions needs to be more public to work in order to get past crippling shame.

fingertips dripping with sarcasm
Yeah, like the crippling shame at not being able to cope with life without anti-depressants. Don’t let me go on about that.

 

[The_Bucket]

fingertips dripping with sarcasm
Yeah, like the crippling shame at not being able to cope with life without anti-depressants. Don’t let me go on about that.

Being hooked on anti-depressants in order to function is just another addiction right? Unless of course you have a chemical imbalance that caused depression. I’m not talking about that.

I assure you that an addict honestly facing the consequences of his behavior is not an easy task at all. They’re some of the most prideful people in the world. Some out of arrogance, others out of horrible shame.

The only way out of that cycle is to find out that God still loves you no matter what you’ve done. Seriously. For some that’s “giving it up to your higher power” but for the Catholic it is coming to a realization that God wants a personal relationship with you even in your most broken state.

Finding out that some people still love you too even if you’ve hurt them greatly is a nice bonus as well. But how can you discover that unless you publicly admit your failings or that information comes out in some other way? I’m all for ensuring that being a part of an AA-type program doesn’t destroy your ability to make a living and whatnot because that’s just going to kick off another cycle, but there have to be ways to address the problem in a semi-public way. Otherwise it’s just not “rigorous honesty.”

 

[johnnyjones]

I would say catholicism basically endorses AA. I don’t think the church would rent out their gymnasiums to a heritical organization. Most Protestant churches allow it as well. “God as you understand him” opens the door to Jesus.

 

[Jerusha]

Unless of course you have a chemical imbalance that caused depression. I’m not talking about that.

I have come to believe that it would be a sin for me to not take meds. Despite what recovery people tell me. I take responsibility for the disease of depression. And, no, it is not because of hidden sin and a lack of honesty. WHAT TRIPE!!

This is what happens when peer support group members try to be psychiatrists/
psychologists/spiritual guides, when they have no qualifications to do so.

 

[johnnyjones]

I have come to believe that it would be a sin for me to not take meds. Despite what recovery people tell me. I take responsibility for the disease of depression. And, no, it is not because of hidden sin and a lack of honesty. WHAT TRIPE!!

I am with you my friend. Take your meds under a doctors care. Some in AA believe it must only be the AA program and nothing else. It is more of an old school thought or based on the ignorance of those unfamilar with alcoholism and depression.

 

[CopticChristian]

OK, then tell me why something that isn’t a disease, would cause the person’s health and mental capacity to RAPIDLY diminish when the substance is resumed after a period of abstinence, even if the quantity of substance consumed does not change? What I mean is, an alcoholic who has been abstinent for 20 years can go back out drinking and not drink any more in terms of quantity, than he did when he stopped drinking, yet even in abstinence, it seems as if the disease is still progressing and rapidly takes over the alcoholic. From there, they seem to go downhill quite rapidly.

You have a personal vendetta against AA, and I can understand that, but I don’t think there are many good explanations for this progression of the disease.

Real,

This post is about Catholicism and AA. I will be brief for that reason.

Harrison’s Internal Medicine is the handbook for Internists and Medical Students. One of my favorite professors, Dr. Faith Fitzgerald said if you know Alcholism you know medicine. It used to be said if you know Syphilis you know medicine. Why would someone say that? It is because Alcohol is a poison that in excess affects the brain, the heart, the Liver, Kidneys, nervous system…etc. So why would drinking 20 years ago and resumed cause a problem of the same severity? Alcohol can cause peripheral neuropathy and that is a result of the drinking that is not reversible…You can be unstable on your feet because of cerebellar ataxia and that can be shown by serial MRI/CT of the brain…the brain shrinks over time with chronic alcohol use. So the alcoholic that drank 20 years ago in excess shrank the brain and the brain does not resume its size…it is shrunk. Now the liver heals with scarring…and the liver degenerates over time although it has a tremendous capacity for regeneration…in fact you only need about 25% of your liver to survive, however if you constantly assault it over time it does not work as well as it used to and that is why in time all the assaults on the body by alcohol will cause degeneration of the body…Athletes that have knee or shoulder injuries traumatize their joints and while playing have pain and swelling…the injury is done. If they stop…no pain, no swelling, if they resume then they resume with damaged joints…does that make sense in terms of the damage…your body does not revert to normal…it normalizes but damage is done.

I appreciate your believing I have a vendetta. My vendetta is against false advertising and those that are dishonest and lie. I don’t care if you go to AA or Alanon or any other group. I believe in Caveat Emptor, full dislclosure and informed consent. I spent a great deal of time in coming to my understanding of AA…I just want people to know the truth…

AA is a religion based on our circuit courts. The Big Book says alcoholics have an allergy to alcohol. This is nonsense. Do a search for yourself on “Alcohol allergy” and you will find this to be untrue. I want people to know that if they accept AA then they accept the disease model. If that is what you want then go get diseased. None of what I post is not true. I believe Gary posted that 80% of Physicians do not accept the medical model. Do they have a vendetta too.

 

[CopticChristian]

Addiction is a very, very real thing. But I’d say it’s far more a spiritual sickness than an actual physical disease. Nevertheless, like a disease it requires treatment. It requires a total re-orienting of one’s life and an embrace of the fact that you can’t correct the problem on your own. And that’s quite true. When you’re addicted hook, line and sinker to something destroying your soul (unlike cigarettes for instance) then there is little that will can do to stop it. Only God can intervene. Personally I think a gigantic religious conversion would work better than AA but one step at a time right?

I’m a take what you want a leave the rest kind of person when it comes to the whole group of “Anonymous” organizations. But I tend to think that despite the reclassification as a “disease” that denying personal responsibility violates the credo of AA/NA, etc.** Isn’t one of the steps “be honest when you’ve done wrong and seek out those you have wronged and make amends”? **I daresay blaming some disease that you didn’t cause or something goes against that.

The concept of rigorous honesty is absolutely critical for addicts who consciously or unconsciously blame everyone but themselves for their predicaments.

Bucket,

Honesty is one of the precepts of AA with the exception of Adultery. When I saw this and I compared this with what the OHCAC teaches I gasped, vomited and then realized that where there is one weak link in the system there must be more. Show me any teaching of the OHCAC that says we should not be honest about Adultery. Where does Jesus say that when it comes to Adultery…compete honesty is not the norm.

In consideration that this thread is about AA and Catholicism…I am going to go with Catholicism.

 

[CopticChristian]

We are into semantics, here. My meaning is compliance=responsibility. It does not matter how one acquired the disease. Only what one does about it. You are using responsibility in the context of accepting consequences for sin. I say that once one has repented, then what they do about it is what makes the difference.

As for what Mormon cultural influence had to do with my drinking problem, I am grateful for that cultural value. I quit drinking relatively early. Of course, I had to live with “I am sinful slime” for years, but at least I did not drink.

Jerusha,

How about if we forget about eh sinful slime you were and think about the new creation you were in Christ Jesus. Paul as you know as he grew in time was early on…The least of the Apostles, later Least of all the Saints…and then he grew up…I like Paul am the greatest of all sinners…don’t you want to be like Paul…trying to grovel in our sin does not reflect well on what we are…for don’t you know that the we are called children of God and so we are…does God have children that are sinful slime?

 

[CopticChristian]

8 years of AA and a few indoctrinating rehabs later I’m the better for it. There are some “conflicts” with the historic Christian faith but they are easily understood in the right context. Although you are encouraged to follow all their methods, you don’t have to. The thust is** sobriety **and many active alcoholics are not very structured, therefor needing a rigid set of principles.

But as I said, even according to their own literature (The “Living Sober” book) , “take what works for you and leave the rest” if the program is somehow challenging your catholicism. Remember, your only a member if you say your a member.

Johnny,

Did you ever wonder what in the world this means. What does Sobriety look like? How does someone know that you have it? Can you put it in a barrel? This is nomanilism that is rampant in this paradigm. How about you stopped drinking and are healthy now. How about I live a healthy life. These are words that explain action and not a status. How about you live your faith and failed every now and again…Christ fell carrying a cross…did that make Him any less Christ?

 

[Mummsie]

Coptic Christian,

I am beginning to agree with Real Julienne. It sounds like you have a real problem with AA. Perhaps it didn’t work for a loved one.

Catholics do not “leave their Catholicism at the door” when going into a meeting. They take what they like and leave the rest.

Adultery. If confession is in order, it is up to the priest to clarify what additional steps one needs to take. Not you. Nor any of the doctors you’ve quoted.

You are sounding disrespectful to the many (some commenting here) who have found help in AA. Why should that bother you? For many, it saved their lives. For many, it brought them back to Jesus. And even if it’s not Catholicism, they have found JESUS! Alive with Jesus in their hearts, they may even find their way back to the True Church.

God Bless You and your passion for His Church.

Sorry if I’m coming across strong. I hope I’ve not offended you. Please forgive me if I have.

 

[Holly3278]

Perhaps the Catholic Church could start up its own support group for alcoholics or maybe it already has? This way the group would be run by orthodox theology rather than the clearly heterodox theology of Alcoholics Anonymous.