Catholicism and Alcoholics Anonymous

[The_Bucket]

Bucket,

Honesty is one of the precepts of AA with the exception of Adultery. When I saw this and I compared this with what the OHCAC teaches I gasped, vomited and then realized that where there is one weak link in the system there must be more. Show me any teaching of the OHCAC that says we should not be honest about Adultery. Where does Jesus say that when it comes to Adultery…compete honesty is not the norm.

In consideration that this thread is about AA and Catholicism…I am going to go with Catholicism.

I really don’t know what you’re talking about here. Seriously. There is a precept of the Anonymous groups that you need to seek out and make amends to everyone unless doing so would cause them undue pain. Does that mean you’re not supposed to confess to adultery? I have no idea as I don’t have experience with that (thank God). I would think that would be up to the individual. And as Mummsie said, I imagine a Catholic would have that discussion with a priest and other Christians would talk with their pastors.

And Jershua, I’m not disagreeing with you. Some people take anti-depressants so they can go numb and not feel anything. If you’re talking it to treat you know, clinical depression, then by all means you can and should keep doing so. No one is arguing against that… well at least I’m not anyway.

 

[CopticChristian]

I really don’t know what you’re talking about here. Seriously. There is a precept of the Anonymous groups that you need to seek out and make amends to everyone unless doing so would cause them undue pain. Does that mean you’re not supposed to confess to adultery? I have no idea as I don’t have experience with that (thank God). I would think that would be up to the individual. And as Mummsie said, I imagine a Catholic would have that discussion with a priest and other Christians would talk with their pastors.

And Jershua, I’m not disagreeing with you. Some people take anti-depressants so they can go numb and not feel anything. If you’re talking it to treat you know, clinical depression, then by all means you can and should keep doing so. No one is arguing against that… well at least I’m not anyway.

Bucket,

Go back and read post 72 to understand.

 

[CopticChristian]

Perhaps the Catholic Church could start up its own support group for alcoholics or maybe it already has? This way the group would be run by orthodox theology rather than the clearly heterodox theology of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Holly,

I agree. Rick Roberts as you know took AA and made into a Program that inculcates members into his Church. It is AA/Protestant style…this would be something that make take time and I agree that this may be the wave of the future.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian,

I am beginning to agree with Real Julienne. It sounds like you have a real problem with AA. Perhaps it didn’t work for a loved one.

Catholics do not “leave their Catholicism at the door” when going into a meeting. They take what they like and leave the rest.

Adultery. If confession is in order, it is up to the priest to clarify what additional steps one needs to take. Not you. Nor any of the doctors you’ve quoted.

You are sounding disrespectful to the many (some commenting here) who have found help in AA. Why should that bother you? For many, it saved their lives. For many, it brought them back to Jesus. And even if it’s not Catholicism, they have found JESUS! Alive with Jesus in their hearts, they may even find their way back to the True Church.

God Bless You and your passion for His Church.

Sorry if I’m coming across strong. I hope I’ve not offended you. Please forgive me if I have.

Anna Nicole Smith, Lindsey Lohan, Michael Jackson, Charlie Sheen, and of course the list goes on for those that have failed. My concern if you go back and read my vendetta is with false advertising and those that distort the truth.

From Post 96

I appreciate your believing I have a vendetta. My vendetta is against false advertising and those that are dishonest and lie. I don’t care if you go to AA or Alanon or any other group. I believe in Caveat Emptor, full dislclosure and informed consent. I spent a great deal of time in coming to my understanding of AA…I just want people to know the truth…

 

[Jerusha]

And Jershua, I’m not disagreeing with you. Some people take anti-depressants so they can go numb and not feel anything. If you’re talking it to treat you know, clinical depression, then by all means you can and should keep doing so.

Some antidepressants affect people like that, particularly in high dosages. I would have to say that the doctor is at fault. Additionally, that “numb” feeling is symptomatic of depression.

 

[Jerusha]

calixsociety.org/

Perhaps the Catholic Church could start up its own support group for alcoholics or maybe it already has? This way the group would be run by orthodox theology rather than the clearly heterodox theology of Alcoholics Anonymous.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian,

I am beginning to agree with Real Julienne. It sounds like you have a real problem with AA. Perhaps it didn’t work for a loved one.

Catholics do not “leave their Catholicism at the door” when going into a meeting. They take what they like and leave the rest.

Adultery. If confession is in order, it is up to the priest to clarify what additional steps one needs to take. Not you. Nor any of the doctors you’ve quoted.

You are sounding disrespectful to the many (some commenting here) who have found help in AA. Why should that bother you? For many, it saved their lives. For many, it brought them back to Jesus. And even if it’s not Catholicism, they have found JESUS! Alive with Jesus in their hearts, they may even find their way back to the True Church.

God Bless You and your passion for His Church.

Sorry if I’m coming across strong. I hope I’ve not offended you. Please forgive me if I have.

Mummsie,

AA has it roots in the Oxford Groupers. I have many of their books and have read them.

AA has its roots in Moral Rearmament/Frank Buchman and have read some of their material.

AA has been declared to be a religion by Federal Circuit Courts

AA touts that alcoholics have allergy to alcohol. This is flat out nonsense.

The disease model as posted is not accepted by 80% physician.

The disease model = AA

AA = The disease model

The disease is a spiritual disease. What the heck does that mean

The disease model is based on a flawed study

There is no honest published data I have seen that validates the disease model

SMART, SOS, AVRT, Moderation management are alternatives that are not based on the disease model

AA/12 steps has less than a 10% success rate and is ranked 37 by one author as effective

AA calls character defects sin

AA says be honest except when it comes to Adultery

AA meetings are like a religous service, ritual readings from a book at the beginning, invoking God, and then holding hands saying the Our Father

Dick B. website posted earlier validates the “Christian” roots of AA that are Protestant

Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of life says that sin/salvation have been replaced with morally neutral addiction/recovery

These are facts and concerns. How are facts and concerns disrespectful?

I should mention that I spent a great deal of time listening to “Joe and Charlie”…you can find them on the internet for free. I have all their talks. In listening to them they tell the story of Bill Wilsons dream…

Bill published the Book to look like a Bible, hence the Big Book. He was a salesman. Bill wanted missionaries to go out and reach people with this book and wanted to have central places for gathering. Joe and Charlie say, the book was deliberately published with big print so that everyone would be a book that was Bible like…the meetings and missionaries are the reality and the Rehab centers are the culmination of the central places for gathering Bill Wilson dreamed of…

Listening to Joe and Charlie actually was the trigger for my adventure…at the end of their talk I heard them say some things that did not make sense about their life and then I heard them say somewhat snobishly…“We had a spiritual awakenint”…that sounded familiar and then when I realized that it sounded like “Great Awakening”…it clicked.

I have previous experience in being evangellized by Protestants. I started searching for AA/religion…and that is how I came to discover all that I discovered. That was where the journey started…I then started questioning and testing all the notions, ie disease, spiritual disease, and of course then started comparing and contrasting that with what the Church teaches. I discovered writings that were anti-Catholic and I cannot find them now but there were letters to Bill Wilson admonishing him for his association with the papists…that is how this all came about…

 

[Jerusha]

Jerusha,

How about if we forget about eh sinful slime you were and think about the new creation you were in Christ Jesus. Paul as you know as he grew in time was early on…The least of the Apostles, later Least of all the Saints…and then he grew up…I like Paul am the greatest of all sinners…don’t you want to be like Paul…trying to grovel in our sin does not reflect well on what we are…for don’t you know that the we are called children of God and so we are…does God have children that are sinful slime?

I agree totally. No, this is the Mormon-related part of my story. Many Mormons, knowing about me, would differ.

 

[CopticChristian]

calixsociety.org/

Perhaps the Catholic Church could start up its own support group for alcoholics or maybe it already has? This way the group would be run by orthodox theology rather than the clearly heterodox **theology **of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Jerusha,

For someone to honestly without prompting be able to use the word theology in explaing AA validates what the federal circuit courts have said concerning AA. AA is a religion. Jesus Christ the bearer of the water of life says that this religion has traded sin/salvation for addiction/recovery…morally neutral words…sin/salvation are not morally neutral.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

Did you ever wonder what in the world this means. What does Sobriety look like? How does someone know that you have it? Can you put it in a barrel? This is nomanilism that is rampant in this paradigm. How about you stopped drinking and are healthy now. How about I live a healthy life. These are words that explain action and not a status. How about you live your faith and failed every now and again…Christ fell carrying a cross…did that make Him any less Christ?

My friend let me slow you down on most fronts. I will first mention that you need not have been in AA to know all about it, but it helps. I went though the whole AA is anti Christian phase as well as denying the disease model 15 years ago, which was when I also went to my last meeting, and finally got sober.

Maybe your unfamiliar with Fr. Martin who’s lectures known as “chalk talk” promoted the disease concept. I remember watching many of his talks in rehabs. So, to start, many a catholic mindset embraces the disease model. Personally I don’t like the word disease ascribed to alcoholism. But, the reasons I can see it used is because two things fit connected to a “traditional” disease and alcoholism. They are the words chronic and progressive, both of which I have seen time and again contained within alcoholism.

Chronic, meaning you will always have it, and progressive meaning it will get worse (if not treated). You don’t need to tell somebody like me what sobriety looks like. I have been there, done it and have spoken at multiple meetings seeing the results of sobriety. AA is a tool, some people cling to it for life and it has saved many. If you want to tell me pray to Jesus instead of AA, sure you can, but people can have AA and Christ. As a matter of fact many people are introduced to the true God trough AA, going back to their childhood roots. Where I disagree with the disease model is that the word “disease” often gives some an excuse to drink. Sort of like, “see I can’t help it, I have a disease.”

People who have the disease of terminal cancer pray, and they are not always delivered from it, in fact that may be more often the case. Never assume all in AA deny Christ or are mislead into the so called “cultish” aspects of the fellowship. As I said even AAs own literature (Living Sober book) reads, “take what works for you and leave the rest.” I don’t know if you’ve ever wrestled with alcoholism. Some find other ways then AA, but do you test the power of fire by touching it? Point being, you can trigger the alcoholic patterns all over again once you imbibe alcohol again.

The church does not condemn AA, having meetings regularly in their gyms and basements because the catechism speaks of “shadows” that lead to Christ. I do not agree with everything in AA, it is a stepping stone. I recognize I behaved alcoholically and now consider myself a sober person, but every individual is different. Also, don’t tell someone who is either in AA or was in AA, “how about you live your faith and FAILED EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.” We are not usually referring to some “now and again” when it comes to alcoholism. Your rhetorical question of Christ falling on the cross is not helpful. He fell, and got up again. When Bill Wilson, founder of AA first stopped drinking, he was asked how, he said, “I got religion.” That’s not a bad thing considering most that I have ever know in AA consider Jesus to be their “higher power”.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian,

I am beginning to agree with Real Julienne. It sounds like you have a real problem with AA. Perhaps it didn’t work for a loved one.

Catholics do not “leave their Catholicism at the door” when going into a meeting. They take what they like and leave the rest.

Adultery. If confession is in order, it is up to the priest to clarify what additional steps one needs to take. Not you. Nor any of the doctors you’ve quoted.

You are sounding disrespectful to the many (some commenting here) who have found help in AA. Why should that bother you? For many, it saved their lives. For many, it brought them back to Jesus. And even if it’s not Catholicism, they have found JESUS! Alive with Jesus in their hearts, they may even find their way back to the True Church.

God Bless You and your passion for His Church.

Sorry if I’m coming across strong. I hope I’ve not offended you. Please forgive me if I have.

Mummsie,

If anyone is serious about understanding AA, they have to listen to Joe and Charlie. I actually have their talks on Disc as well as a bunch of other stuff on disc that I got from a guy on Amazon. Early on in my research and discovery I handed these out to people to complete the information. I learn by hearing and seeing and so to listen to these talks for me was helpful in uderstanding what I had read. This thought is pro-AA.

I suggest you compare and contrast that with a book “More Revealed”…the website dedictated to this book is found here. This thought is anti-AA.

morerevealed.com/

This book was one of many that I also read

silkworth.net/freestuff.html

 

[johnnyjones]

Remember that AA is about “suggestions”. You don’t have to do anything. Many, when they get their wits about themselves put the suggestions aside and do what their faith tells them. Like anything else, even catholicism, people will take extreme measures and paint one group in a certain light. Read my post, #111 as well.

 

[The_Bucket]

Bucket,

Go back and read post 72 to understand.

I pretty much JUST wrote that. And like I said, I would imagine that a priest would be a far better arbiter as to if you should tell your spouse about adultery or not. Yes, the Anonymous groups allow one to define sexual ethics on their own, but that’s because it’s a non-denominational group. If you want to found or promote a purely Catholic addicts group then please do. But AA/NA/etc is what is available for most people and as johnnyjones and other posters have said, Catholics can and should take the good and leave out parts that they believe are contrary to our doctrine.

What’s so difficult to understand about this?

 

[CopticChristian]

My friend let me slow you down on most fronts. I will first mention that you need not have been in AA to know all about it, but it helps. I went though the whole AA is anti Christian phase as well as denying the disease model 15 years ago, which was when I also went to my last meeting, and finally got sober.

Maybe your unfamiliar with **Fr. Martin **who’s lectures known as “chalk talk” promoted the disease concept. I remember watching many of his talks in rehabs. So, to start, many a catholic mindset embraces the disease model. Personally I don’t like the word disease ascribed to alcoholism. But, the reasons I can see it used is because two things fit connected to a “traditional” disease and alcoholism. They are the words chronic and progressive, both of which I have seen time and again contained within alcoholism.

Chronic, meaning you will always have it, and progressive meaning it will get worse (if not treated). You don’t need to tell somebody like me what sobriety looks like. I have been there, done it and have spoken at multiple meetings seeing the results of sobriety. AA is a tool, some people cling to it for life and it has saved many. If you want to tell me pray to Jesus instead of AA, sure you can, but people can have AA and Christ. As a matter of fact many people are introduced to the true God trough AA, going back to their childhood roots. Where I disagree with the disease model is that the word “disease” often gives some an excuse to drink. Sort of like, “see I can’t help it, I have a disease.”

People who have the disease of terminal cancer pray, and they are not always delivered from it, in fact that may be more often the case. Never assume all in AA deny Christ or are mislead into the so called “cultish” aspects of the fellowship. As I said even AAs own literature (Living Sober book) reads, “take what works for you and leave the rest.” I don’t know if you’ve ever wrestled with alcoholism. Some find other ways then AA, but do you test the power of fire by touching it? Point being, you can trigger the alcoholic patterns all over again once you imbibe alcohol again.

The church does not condemn AA, having meetings regularly in their gyms and basements because the catechism speaks of “shadows” that lead to Christ. I do not agree with everything in AA, it is a stepping stone. I recognize I behaved alcoholically and now consider myself a sober person, but every individual is different. Also, don’t tell someone who is either in AA or was in AA, “how about you live your faith and FAILED EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.” We are not usually referring to some “now and again” when it comes to alcoholism. Your rhetorical question of Christ falling on the cross is not helpful. He fell, and got up again. When Bill Wilson, founder of AA first stopped drinking, he was asked how, he said, “I got religion.” That’s not a bad thing considering most that I have ever know in AA consider Jesus to be their “higher power”.

Johnny,

I have most of Fr. Martins chalk talks and I am familiar with him. What you are relating is the AA think speak that happens with the brain washing. In medical terminology the difference between Acute and Chronic is this. Chronic is something that lasts longer than 6 months. I understand the AA jargon as to what you speak of but it makes no sense unless you accept the disease model that I and 80% of physicians reject.

Alcohol is alcohol. Some drink some don’t. Some don’t know how to stop. Some find Jesus and get saved and stop drinking. Who knows why people stop. There is no uniform reason.

You like AA, great. You accept having a disease. Great. You accept that AA has value great. This does not change facts that it is a religion, that the disease model is bunk, that the failure rate is greater than 90 %…those 90% took everything and left the rest and failed. It is not treatment in my opinion and you are happy with it. Wonderful

 

[Jerusha]

Calix is a small organization. For that reason, it encourages Catholics to continue participating in AA. It also provides a moderating influence on the heresies within AA, keeping people in the faith, and giving them strength to stand up against anti-Catholic influences, and be a witness for the faith.

It also encourages people to practice the virtue of sobriety, which implies that alcohol abuse is a sin. This is a condemnation-reduction which is parallel to the disease concept, but probably more effective.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thanks to all who participated.
Thread closed.