Catholicism and Climate Change: The Sequel

[TheRealJuliane]

Well, there are also people who are claiming that because the Japanese are not mainly Christian, it’s God’s judgment upon them. I guess these are the same people who think God struck Haiti because they practice voodoo.

Some horrible idiots are saying that the Japan quake is divine retribution for Pearl Harbor. As if God is on the side of the US exclusively.

Truly sickening.

 

[Ender]

Or perhaps it shows that data released to the public does not tell the entire truth. I’m not saying that what was said about Three Mile Island by “official sources” was not true because I don’t know. I’m simply pointing out the possibility.

If you think TMI was a serious tragedy then show us some data to support that position (and please don’t cite Wikipedia).

Are you implying that the problems Japan is experiencing with its nuclear power plants are not emergencies?

I don’t imply things; if I want to make a point I’ll say it straight out. I was responding to your claim that TMI was a tragedy. It wasn’t.

That the radiation that has been released is not a problem? That it is equivalent to your examples given above but no more dangerous?

No, I don’t believe the radiation released so far is a problem. We have a duplicitous attitude toward radiation in that nuclear plants are held to higher standards than non-nuclear buildings. The radiation level in Grand Central Station is higher than any nuclear plant is allowed to operate at.

The situation in Japan is quite serious and, while it may become a catastrophe, it’s not one yet.

Ender

 

[LittleSoldier]

Well, there are also people who are claiming that because the Japanese are not mainly Christian, it’s God’s judgment upon them. I guess these are the same people who think God struck Haiti because they practice voodoo.

Some horrible idiots are saying that the Japan quake is divine retribution for Pearl Harbor. As if God is on the side of the US exclusively.

Truly sickening.

On facebook I’ve read that the Japanese are being punished for whaling. Weird.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If you think TMI was a serious tragedy then show us some data to support that position (and please don’t cite Wikipedia).

First, please don’t tell me what to do.

Second, I have clarified my position about Three Mile Island. And here is what I stated:

“Or perhaps it shows that data released to the public does not tell the entire truth. I’m not saying that what was said about Three Mile Island by “official sources” was not true because I don’t know. I’m simply pointing out the possibility.”

I think that’s clear but I guess it isn’t clear to you.

Obviously you don’t understand what I am saying so I will try to clarify again. I am using the word “tragedy” not to refer to a massive release of radiation (although I believe that possibility exists as I stated above). Here is what I mean by “tragedy” (at Three Mile Island specifically):

"The operators were unable to diagnose or respond properly to the unplanned automatic shutdown of the reactor. Deficient control room instrumentation and inadequate emergency response training proved to be root causes of the accident."

world-nuclear.org/info/inf36.html [bolding added]

The staff at Three Mile Island were not prepared adequately to deal with the unplanned event. And the instrumentation in the control room was faulty. As far as I am concerned, that is a tragedy and we are very, very lucky that nothing worse happened. It’s like having a poorly trained pilot flying a huge jet with faulty panel instrumentation. I would not feel safe on the jet and I don’t think anyone else would either.

I don’t imply things; if I want to make a point I’ll say it straight out. I was responding to your claim that TMI was a tragedy. It wasn’t.

Um, I find it difficult to believe you didn’t read my clarification of the “tragedy” at Three Mile Island as you responded to that post. Perhaps you forgot?

No, I don’t believe the radiation released so far is a problem. We have a duplicitous attitude toward radiation in that nuclear plants are held to higher standards than non-nuclear buildings. The radiation level in Grand Central Station is higher than any nuclear plant is allowed to operate at.

“Allowed” to operate at and “actually” operate at are two different things. And as you complained about my lack of backup documentation, it seems strange that you provided none yourself.

The situation in Japan is quite serious and, while it may become a catastrophe, it’s not one yet.

Ender

Perhaps you should tell that to the people who have already been affected by radiation, including the brave people who are working in those reactors right now, trying to stop a meltdown.

BTW, I did notice that you have stated nothing whatsoever about Chernobyl.

As for what is going on in Japan, please read this:

"Japanese authorities began evacuating more than 200,000 people Saturday from areas around two nuclear power plants after an explosion at one of them damaged a building housing an aging U.S.-supplied reactor.

"The unit, built 40 years ago by General Electric, is one of as many as seven reactors imperiled by the earthquake and subsequent disruptions in the power supply that the reactors use for cooling systems.

"One nuclear worker was killed, at least six were injured and two were missing at the plants in the aftermath of Friday’s 8.9 magnitude earthquake and the blast Saturday afternoon, according to the Tokyo Electric Power Co., which operates the Fukushima I and II nuclear power stations

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/11/AR2011031103673.html

Aging US-supplied reactor. Aging. Built 40 years ago. By G.E. I wouldn’t buy a light bulb from G.E. One person has been killed, at least six injured, and two are missing. Almost 200,000 people have been told to evacuate. These are people who have jobs, families, lives. I know what it is like to be evacuated as I live on the Oregon coast. To me that was not a huge deal. But there are families here with little children and they were terrified. According to the news, a 500 mph tsunami was going to hit my little town, with a sound like a jet taking off (hopefully a jet with a trained pilot and correctly functioning panel instrumentation). It was not a tragedy because people could return to their homes within hours and nothing really happened here (although there was damage in Crescent City, CA). In fact, I returned home before the tsunami was supposed to hit. My reasons are complex and off-topic, but I wanted to show that I am not one who runs around in a panic when something happens.

Sadly, it is not the same in Japan. And that is a tragedy.

Here is the definition of “tragedy.” I picked the first definition that appeared:

1. very sad event: an event in life that evokes feelings of sorrow or grief
2. disastrous event: a disastrous circumstance or event, e.g. serious illness, financial ruin, or fatality
3. tragic play: a serious play with a tragic theme, often involving a heroic struggle and the downfall of the main character
4. tragic piece of literature: a literary work that deals with a tragic theme
5. tragedies as genre: the genre of plays or other literary works that deal with tragic themes

bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+tragedy&qpvt=meaning+of+tragedy&FORM=DTPDIA [bolding added]

My use of the word “tragedy” is justified.

 

[John21652]

I think some things need to be kept in perspective.

The earthquake that hit Japan was huge. It wouldn’t matter what sort of power generation systems were in place, there would have been catastrophe. The nuclear reactors didn’t fail. They survived the quake admirably. It was the power supplies that failed. And the water supplies. Shall we blame the power system? Shall me blame the Japanese for locating them too near the coast? If we start blaming, then we may as well blame the Japanese for whatever takes our fancy. The fact is, around two thirds of Japan’s electricity comes from nuclear sources. It has served them, and us, admirably for nearly 50 years. Without it, they’d be burning coal in massive quantities and having to import nearly all of it. They did the right thing in going down the nuclear path and now, unfortunately, a massive earthquake has caused massive destruction. The Japanese have been living quietly in those coastal towns and villages for hundreds of years. Why, they even had massive sea walls protecting some towns and even they were breached. No-one could have forseen this disaster. I read that 2000 bodies were found on just one beach. Entire towns obliterated. Whole families gone! The entire nation was shifted metres! It defies imagination to even attempt to comprehend what they must be going through. And here we are, in the safety of our geologically safe industrial societies, living the good life and ‘blaming’ them!? I also read an article that pointed out that there is absolutely no looting going on…that should cause us to reflect a little. Don’t you think?

 

[kimmielittle]

I think some things need to be kept in perspective.

The earthquake that hit Japan was huge. It wouldn’t matter what sort of power generation systems were in place, there would have been catastrophe. The nuclear reactors didn’t fail. They survived the quake admirably. It was the power supplies that failed. And the water supplies. Shall we blame the power system? Shall me blame the Japanese for locating them too near the coast? If we start blaming, then we may as well blame the Japanese for whatever takes our fancy. The fact is, around two thirds of Japan’s electricity comes from nuclear sources. It has served them, and us, admirably for nearly 50 years. Without it, they’d be burning coal in massive quantities and having to import nearly all of it. They did the right thing in going down the nuclear path and now, unfortunately, a massive earthquake has caused massive destruction. The Japanese have been living quietly in those coastal towns and villages for hundreds of years. Why, they even had massive sea walls protecting some towns and even they were breached. No-one could have forseen this disaster. I read that 2000 bodies were found on just one beach. Entire towns obliterated. Whole families gone! The entire nation was shifted metres! It defies imagination to even attempt to comprehend what they must be going through. And here we are, in the safety of our geologically safe industrial societies, living the good life and ‘blaming’ them!? I also read an article that pointed out that there is absolutely no looting going on…that should cause us to reflect a little. Don’t you think?

:clapping::clapping::tiphat:

 

[Ender]

Second, I have clarified my position about Three Mile Island. And here is what I stated:

“Or perhaps it shows that data released to the public does not tell the entire truth. I’m not saying that what was said about Three Mile Island by “official sources” was not true because I don’t know. I’m simply pointing out the possibility.”

“Maybe” we don’t know the truth? Given that virtually nothing happened, as opposed to all the hype about what might happen, what made you think TMI was a tragedy?

Obviously you don’t understand what I am saying so I will try to clarify again. I am using the word “tragedy” not to refer to a massive release of radiation (although I believe that possibility exists as I stated above). Here is what I mean by “tragedy” (at Three Mile Island specifically):

"The operators were unable to diagnose or respond properly to the unplanned automatic shutdown of the reactor. Deficient control room instrumentation and inadequate emergency response training proved to be root causes of the accident."

world-nuclear.org/info/inf36.html [bolding added]

I think the word you’re looking for is incompetence, not tragedy.

Um, I find it difficult to believe you didn’t read my clarification of the “tragedy” at Three Mile Island as you responded to that post. Perhaps you forgot?

Clearly I did not recognize that “maybe we don’t know the truth” was meant to clarify the meaning of the word tragedy.

“Allowed” to operate at and “actually” operate at are two different things.

Is this another “maybe we don’t know the truth” argument?

BTW, I did notice that you have stated nothing whatsoever about Chernobyl.

Chernobyl was a tragedy but since I wasn’t disputing that I see no reason to comment on it other than to say that, if Chernobyl was like the sinking of the Titanic, TMI was like overturning a canoe.

Here is the definition of “tragedy.” I picked the first definition that appeared:

1. very sad event: an event in life that evokes feelings of sorrow or grief
2. disastrous event: a disastrous circumstance or event, e.g. serious illness, financial ruin, or fatality
3. tragic play: a serious play with a tragic theme, often involving a heroic struggle and the downfall of the main character
4. tragic piece of literature: a literary work that deals with a tragic theme
5. tragedies as genre: the genre of plays or other literary works that deal with tragic themes

Nothing here about incompetence being one of the meanings of tragedy. Can we agree now that TMI was not a tragedy?

Ender

 

[LittleSoldier]

“Maybe” we don’t know the truth? Given that virtually nothing happened, as opposed to all the hype about what might happen, what made you think TMI was a tragedy?

I hope you read this entire post and the continuation before replying because there has been editing.

Is there something you don’t understand about the statements: “Or perhaps it shows that data released to the public does not tell the entire truth. I’m not saying that what was said about Three Mile Island by “official sources” was not true because I don’t know. I’m simply pointing out the possibility.”?

If we don’t know the truth, we don’t know the truth!! If official sources gave us a cock-and-bull story, they did not tell us the truth. How do you know that what was officially stated about Three Mile Island is the truth? How do you know that “virtually nothing happened?” You don’t. You can’t. There is a well-known significant correlation between radiation from nuclear power plants and thyroid cancer. I hope we can agree on that.

"Thyroid cancer rates in Pennsylvania soared in recent decades and radiation from nuclear power plants may be the cause, a study released Thursday said.

"Joseph Mangano, who authored the study which appeared in the International Journal of Health Services and is executive director for the Radiation and Public Health Project, called the growth in the number of cases “an epidemic.”

"Pennsylvania’s incidence of thyroid cancer in the mid-1980s was 40 percent below the national rate, and now the rate is 44 percent above the national rate, he said.

"‘Something occurred to change Pennsylvania’s rate from low to high, and one of these possible factors is radiation from reactors,’ Mangano said.

"Some of the highest thyroid cancer rates - 80 percent above the national rate - are in Sullivan, Luzerne, Carbon, Northampton, Lehigh and York counties, according to his research.

"Others reactors are Three Mile Island in Dauphin County, Peach Bottom in York County and Limerick in Montgomery County. Seven continue to operate.

"Some of the highest thyroid cancer rates occur in eastern Pennsylvania, which has the nation’s largest concentration of nuclear reactors, including the Susquehanna Steam Electric Station in Salem Township, he said.

"Mangano noted that the radiation released from these reactors is relatively low, and not the high levels associated with the Chernobyl accident or the atomic bomb at Hiroshima.

"But the effects of low-level radiation needs to be explored further as a public health concern, he said, because radiation exposure is the only known cause of thyroid cancer."

standardspeaker.com/news/study-nuclear-plant-radiation-may-be-to-blame-for-cancer-spike-1.563288 [Bolding and under-lining added]

I can find more backup documentation but I’m limited in my time here. I’m not necessarily agreeing with what I quoted. And that’s because people can “prove” that radiation from nuclear power plants can “cause” cancer just like people (including official government spokespersons) can “prove” that it doesn’t. How do we know who to believe? Nobody here has the time to analyze the data from all nuclear power plants in order to find putative significant correlations between radiation from those plants and cancer. And how do we even know that data has been reported correctly in the first place? We don’t.

Cancer is not obvious right away. It takes awhile. In my Dad’s case (as far as I know it was not caused by radiation from a nuclear power plant) it took ten years before it was detected and then it was too late to do anything except to let him die with as much dignity and with as little discomfort as possible (it was pancreatic cancer and his death was miserable and very difficult, due mainly to the fact that he had to be in a nursing home because of a broken leg and was treated very poorly). People who have been exposed to radiation (like me, thank you U.S. government) may develop cancer ten, twenty, fifty years down the road. But the cause is still radiation and may very well be radiation whose source is nuclear power plants.

Do you always believe the US government is telling its citizens the truth? That it is out for our good and only our good? Do you think that perhaps the government is ever involved in cover-ups?

Well, I do. I happen to know from personal experience that government, in my case the government of the State of California, has engaged in at least one illegal activity that I am aware of. And the reason I know this is because they stole my money from me and the money from every other Registered Environmental Specialist in the state. Illegal as heck and they did it anyway.

I love this country. But I loathe our government and I do not trust those who have supposedly been voted into office. My Dad had a saying. He told me that honest people do not get elected to high office. Being corrupt is a necessary prerequisite for office. His saying was “It’s the nature of the beast.” I agree. The nature of the beast is corruption.

I think the word you’re looking for is incompetence, not tragedy.

Nope.

Clearly I did not recognize that “maybe we don’t know the truth” was meant to clarify the meaning of the word tragedy.

Yes. Clearly.

-----continued in next post-----

 

[LittleSoldier]

-----continuation of last post-----

Is this another “maybe we don’t know the truth” argument?

Yes and no. Obviously there are government standards. Also obviously, companies, both public and private, do not remain within the limits of those standards. Data is changed and cover-ups are put into place. I’m sure there are companies that take safety standards to heart and do their best to remain in compliance with the law. I am also sure that there are companies whose CEOs and other high-ranking personnel bow down to the god of the Almighty Dollar and ignore those safety standards.

Chernobyl was a tragedy but since I wasn’t disputing that I see no reason to comment on it other than to say that, if Chernobyl was like the sinking of the Titanic, TMI was like overturning a canoe.

OK. We’ve found a bit of agreement here. I will say that if the official findings released to the public re Three Mile Island were true and correct, then Three Mile Island was not an environmental tragedy. But you see, I don’t trust the US government. So I don’t believe them when they release “official” findings.

Nothing here about incompetence being one of the meanings of tragedy. Can we agree now that TMI was not a tragedy?

Ender

No - we cannot agree that Three Mile Island was not a tragedy. I’ve given my reasons for using the word “tragedy” and I stand by those words and the dictionary definition.

However, as stated above, I agree that Three Mile Island was not an environmental tragedy. It was still a tragedy.

Edit: There are a few things I would like to add. I apologize for coming off as being uncharitable. I’m still a bit on edge because of the evacuation, the sirens, the police. I’m not looking for a fight here. I hope we can have a respectful discussion and I did not get a good start. I tend to get cranky when tsunami warning sirens go off for an hour and then the police drive down the street telling us to get out immediately, especially when we had a good three hours to evacuate. I’m still finding it difficult to sleep. My apologies for that spilling over into this thread.

The other thing I would like to say is that I do know a bit about scientific method and data manipulation. It’s somewhat true that you can prove anything you want with data, although scientists know that there is no way to prove anything via scientific method. But the average Joe doesn’t know this. He may accept that what is “official” is true. I’ve learned enough about data to know that it can be twisted so that it suddenly loses any real meaning. For example, take cigarette smoking. It is clear that there is a significant positive correlation between cigarette smoking and cancer. But the big tobacco companies are correct when they say it can’t be proved that cigarette smoking causes cancer. And people (usually smokers) grab onto that and say “See? You can’t **prove ** that cigarette smoking causes cancer!!” And they are correct. But really, the correlation is so clear and consistent that anyone who smokes should know that they have a much higher than normal chance of developing cancer.

Ender, I hope and pray that you are correct about nuclear power plants. I really do. I have no desire for people to develop cancer to prove my point. I don’t want people to get sick. I want nuclear power to be safe. I want there to never be any earthquakes of a magnitude so high as the one in Japan. My heart broke when I saw a photo of a Japanese citizen sobbing. Yesterday I heard from a friend that on a radio station (Donkey Radio - I would change the name to A** Radio) the DJs were making fun of the Japanese. My friend is twelve years old. He was horrified. He sees no humor in the multiple tragedies in Japan. His eyes teared up when he told me he saw a photograph of a woman holding an obviously dead baby.

I don’t want this to happen. I want this world to be safe and beautiful and clean and that people never have to suffer for anything. I want starvation and hunger to stop. I want clean water for people to drink. And I want to be charitable in my responses to people instead of going off half-cocked full of anger. It’s because I’m frustrated. I won’t lie to you - I don’t believe nuclear power is safe at the present time. It may be safe in the future when science has progressed to the point where we can accurately predict earthquakes, including the magnitude, and shut down the reactors before they have a chance to fail. I’m concerned that Japan relies so heavily on nuclear power when it is an area where earthquakes seem to occur on a regular basis (that’s also why I don’t believe nuclear power plants should be built in California). We don’t know enough - it’s not really that we don’t know enough about nuclear power, although I do have a real problem with the way waste products are stored because of their extremely long half-life. It’s that we don’t know enough about the interplay between nuclear power and earthquakes and tsunamis and other natural disasters.

I hope this clarifies my position. I promise to try harder to be charitable. Please accept my apology for the unkind things I have said.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

-----continuation of last post-----

I don’t want this to happen. ** I want this world to be safe and beautiful and clean and that people never have to suffer for anything. I want starvation and hunger to stop. I want clean water for people to drink.** And I want to be charitable in my responses to people instead of going off half-cocked full of anger. It’s because I’m frustrated. I won’t lie to you - I don’t believe nuclear power is safe at the present time. It may be safe in the future when science has progressed to the point where we can accurately predict earthquakes, including the magnitude, and shut down the reactors before they have a chance to fail. I’m concerned that Japan relies so heavily on nuclear power when it is an area where earthquakes seem to occur on a regular basis (that’s also why I don’t believe nuclear power plants should be built in California). We don’t know enough - it’s not really that we don’t know enough about nuclear power, although I do have a real problem with the way waste products are stored because of their extremely long half-life. It’s that we don’t know enough about the interplay between nuclear power and earthquakes and tsunamis and other natural disasters.

I hope this clarifies my position. I promise to try harder to be charitable. Please accept my apology for the unkind things I have said.

You see, here is one of the problems. I think you really believe that these things are possible and that if we humans only work hard enough, we can achieve them. But this world is full of original sin, and also, if you believe what the Gospels recount about Jesus’ temptation by Satan, it belongs to Satan in the first place. That means that we will NEVER EVER be living in paradise until Jesus returns and takes us to our heavenly home. Not to say that we can’t try to make things as good as possible, but this utopian vision has caused so many people to create so many agencies, as if one more agency, one more regulation, one more program, will finally cause a tipping point and utopia will finally appear. This world will just never turn into a utopia and we shouldn’t expect it to.

Jesus said “The poor will always be with you.” He could have said, the criminals, the injustice, the hungry, the liars, the cheaters, the thieves, the corruption, the anger, the pain, etc. but he was a man of few words. The humanity will always be with us. To say nothing of Satan’s influence.

Many, many experts have gone over and over the data from Three Mile Island and the hysteria of the media was completely unwarranted. I can see them doing it all over again with the Japan situation. They NEED a catastrophe, so they create one by continuing to use the term. Most people don’t even understand what is happening so they think that it’s going to be Hiroshima and Nagasaki all warpped in one.

I do not believe anything any media outlet says without considering the source. I do not trust them to be “objective,” because they are not. The least they can do is divulge their own biases but they do not. The closest we ever get is watching their faces when an event happens that they do not approve of, such as the George Bush election over Al Gore. I got all the confirmation I ever needed just watching Katie Couric’s face. She looked like someone was forcing her to eat cabbage.

Don’t take the media’s word for things, do your own research, and find the sources’ biases. Really dig for the truth, and you might find things you will be surprised by.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think some things need to be kept in perspective.

The earthquake that hit Japan was huge. It wouldn’t matter what sort of power generation systems were in place, there would have been catastrophe. The nuclear reactors didn’t fail. They survived the quake admirably. It was the power supplies that failed. And the water supplies. Shall we blame the power system? Shall me blame the Japanese for locating them too near the coast? If we start blaming, then we may as well blame the Japanese for whatever takes our fancy. The fact is, around two thirds of Japan’s electricity comes from nuclear sources. It has served them, and us, admirably for nearly 50 years. Without it, they’d be burning coal in massive quantities and having to import nearly all of it. They did the right thing in going down the nuclear path and now, unfortunately, a massive earthquake has caused massive destruction. The Japanese have been living quietly in those coastal towns and villages for hundreds of years. Why, they even had massive sea walls protecting some towns and even they were breached. No-one could have forseen this disaster. I read that 2000 bodies were found on just one beach. Entire towns obliterated. Whole families gone! The entire nation was shifted metres! It defies imagination to even attempt to comprehend what they must be going through. And here we are, in the safety of our geologically safe industrial societies, living the good life and ‘blaming’ them!? I also read an article that pointed out that there is absolutely no looting going on…that should cause us to reflect a little. Don’t you think?

As usual, you bring up points that I haven’t considered or have put on the back burner. Thank you.

My last post was long and my language processing skills are rapidly disappearing, so please forgive me if this post doesn’t make a whole lot of sense (how embarrassing to have to admit). I do want to respond to your post because it makes sense.

OK. Here goes. I think that in the future it will be possible to predict earthquakes, including their magnitude, early enough so that all nuclear power plants can be quickly shut down before the earthquake hits. Also, I believe that better methods of protecting the dangerous parts of plants will be found. This is just the way science works. I’m sure the inter-related problems of high magnitude quakes and possible damage to nuclear power plants will be solved.

And when earthquakes can be accurately predicted, those people who will be affected can be evacuated and we won’t be seeing such a massive loss of life and property. Remember Mt. St. Helen? Not an earthquake, but certainly in the past even volcanic eruptions were seen as an act of God and it wasn’t known if and when one would occur.

I was surprised to find out that off the coast in Oregon and Washington (I didn’t see anything about California or other areas) there are tsunami sensors. These sensors worked and that’s why it was known, almost to the minute, when the first wave of the tsunami would hit my town. I didn’t know these sensors existed. I thought that when a tsunami was coming toward you you would have no warning at all except that the water would recede and recede and recede and then boom!! a huge wave would hit. That scared me a bit because I can’t run due to my disability (although maybe I could if a huge wall of water full of ships and debris was heading toward me at 500 mph). But I could never run 500 mph. I thought that if I were on the beach I would be toast if a tsunami hit.

There is no blame for the natural disasters in Japan. The quake and the tsunami just happened and at the present time there was little to nothing that could be done before these occurred, although I believe the Japanese have made a lot of headway in designing and building structures that can withstand earthquakes.

Earthquakes of magnitude 8.9 (9.1 according to one article I saw) are going to occur. They are rare but they will occur. We can count on that. Japan is an area in which earthquakes are common, like California from San Francisco south. I know that nuclear energy has served the Japanese well for quite a long time. But I question the intelligence of building nuclear power plants in earthquake-prone regions.

In southern California there is going to be a massive quake. The government has made it illegal to publicly announce this fact. The reason I know this quake will occur is because I knew someone (who has passed on) who was a professional geologist and very knowledgeable (he’s the person who explained global warming to me; I think we discussed that a long time ago. He didn’t believe global warming, if it even existed, had anything to do with the actions of human beings). Very intelligent, knowledgeable man.

-----continued in next post-----

 

[LittleSoldier]

-----continuation of last post-----

The California quake will be devastating. It will involve numerous faults, including the infamous San Andreas fault. California is way overdue for this quake. The government’s reason for making it illegal to warn people publicly is that doing so would have an adverse reaction on the housing market. I can’t back up what I just wrote, mainly because it’s illegal to announce this.

Sorry - went off-topic there for a bit.

As for looting - my sister travels a lot to the Caribbean. She’s told me that in at least one resort area she has visited there is no stealing. She could leave her purse anywhere and it would still be there an hour later, with money intact (not that she did this). I think the Japanese have an honor system. The lack of looting speaks very well of them. BTW, there was no looting in my town, either, although that may have been just because the “looters” had evacuated and there was so little damage that everyone came back home and the stores and buildings were secured. Also, the police were everywhere.

I commend the Japanese for their actions during this series of disasters. We can learn from them. But I still question the use of nuclear power plants in an area prone to quake activity.

I don’t blame the Japanese for what happened. On facebook I’ve read that the Japanese are being punished for whaling, Pearl Harbor, WWII, etc. C’mon. That is so ridiculous but then don’t some religions teach that if a person becomes ill it’s because he/she did something “bad” in the past? Silly and ridiculous. If that were true I must have been a very evil person because I’m always sick and it seems like I’m accumulating diseases and conditions like it’s my hobby. Bad things happen to good people. They always have and until the Second Coming, they always will.

I mentioned this in another post but I’ll state it here also. On a radio station the DJs were making fun of the Japanese. I didn’t hear the program (on “Donkey Radio”) but my friend did and was shocked. So am I. I’m amazed that anyone could laugh or even smile at the thought of such suffering. This is the worst natural disaster I know of that has happened in my entire life. The earth shifted off its axis? I read that. I also read that the coast of Japan has shifted eight feet. That is amazing. This is a geological event of very high significance.

My hope is that we learn how to predict quakes and their magnitude and that nuclear power plants can be safely shut down and safely be kept shut down until all danger has passed. And that everyone has battery powered lanterns, food, clean water, blankets, extra medication, etc. - just like we all should have at all times.

Hope this makes sense. Thank you for your charity.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You see, here is one of the problems. I think you really believe that these things are possible and that if we humans only work hard enough, we can achieve them. But this world is full of original sin, and also, if you believe what the Gospels recount about Jesus’ temptation by Satan, it belongs to Satan in the first place. That means that we will NEVER EVER be living in paradise until Jesus returns and takes us to our heavenly home. Not to say that we can’t try to make things as good as possible, but this utopian vision has caused so many people to create so many agencies, as if one more agency, one more regulation, one more program, will finally cause a tipping point and utopia will finally appear. This world will just never turn into a utopia and we shouldn’t expect it to.

Being a stoic is good. But to accept things that can be changed for the better is not. We can learn how to predict earthquakes. We can learn more about keeping nuclear power plants safe. God gave us intelligence - we should use it. Of course these things are possible! Look at the advances science has already made!! I have no doubt that they are possible.

I never even used the word “utopia.” And there is a huge difference between making nuclear power plants safer along with learning how to predict quakes, and ending all the problems present in the world. Did you think I meant that we could stop world hunger, have everlasting peace, stop all disease, hatred, intolerance, suffering? I didn’t mean that at all. It is a hope of mine. It is a dream. It is a prayer.

I don’t trust government so why would I wish for more agencies, regulations, and programs to be formed? That would only mean more agencies, regulations, and programs for me to not trust. Personally I think governments should be streamlined and that the federal government should keep its not-too-clean nose out of states’ rights.

Jesus said “The poor will always be with you.” He could have said, the criminals, the injustice, the hungry, the liars, the cheaters, the thieves, the corruption, the anger, the pain, etc. but he was a man of few words. The humanity will always be with us. To say nothing of Satan’s influence.

He could have said those things. But did He? Not that I know of. I’m not going to add words to the Bible (I don’t think we’re supposed to do that) and I’m not going to hazard any guesses about what Jesus may or may not have said or to make baseless claims as to His reasons for whatever He did. I can only go by what He actually said. A man of few words. How do you know this? Read the ending of the Gospel of John. Perhaps few words He said have been written down or passed on from generation to generation, but that does not mean He was a man of few words. With all due respect, I think the statment you made is completely in error.

Many, many experts have gone over and over the data from Three Mile Island and the hysteria of the media was completely unwarranted. I can see them doing it all over again with the Japan situation. They NEED a catastrophe, so they create one by continuing to use the term. Most people don’t even understand what is happening so they think that it’s going to be Hiroshima and Nagasaki all warpped in one.

Are you actually saying that what is going on in Japan is not a catastrophe? I hope not. Because it most certainly is. You didn’t make it clear but I’m going to assume you are referring solely to the problems in the nuclear power plant(s). I don’t want to misread your post.

And once again, how do you know if what these “experts” presented is true and factual? Because they’re “experts?” What makes them experts? As experts are they God-loving, truthful human beings who can’t be bought off, who always report the whole truth?

I do not believe anything any media outlet says without considering the source. I do not trust them to be “objective,” because they are not. The least they can do is divulge their own biases but they do not. The closest we ever get is watching their faces when an event happens that they do not approve of, such as the George Bush election over Al Gore. I got all the confirmation I ever needed just watching Katie Couric’s face. She looked like someone was forcing her to eat cabbage.

So are you now saying you *don’t *trust those who are called “experts?” What is being reported is usually what “experts” are claiming. Do you base your conclusions on body language only?

Don’t take the media’s word for things, do your own research, and find the sources’ biases. Really dig for the truth, and you might find things you will be surprised by.

As I do. I’m sorry; I thought it was clear that I do not necessarily agree with anything said by anyone, including government officials. I even stated that. More than once. As for digging for the truth, I do the best I can but as I have already stated, it is impossible to find out everything. I’m not an “expert.” I doubt that anyone posting in this thread is an “expert” although some may believe they are. Nobody has the time to find out all that is necessary to really know what is going on in nuclear power plants, especially in Japan as their problems are ongoing.

I don’t think that watching somebody’s face is a good method for determining truth. Although body language can provide valuable cues, it’s not a good basis for accepting or denying what is being said. Discovering truth is way more complicated than that.

 

[LittleSoldier]

After a 9.0 quake and a tsunami, nothing is safe.

Several thousand people died from the tsunami sweeping through a town.

Perhaps we should revise the statement…
TOWNS ARE NOT SAFE.
I TOLD YOU SO.

You can revise your statement any way you want. I refuse to revise mine.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

On facebook I’ve read that the Japanese are being punished for whaling. Weird.

Maybe the Japanese are being punished for abortion.

MAYBE the Japanese are being punished by an ungrateful Gaia … after all that the Japanese people have done to save the earth with their electric hybrid cars … Prius and the rest … however many there may be … and this is how Gaia repays them … well, you know the First Commandment warns about worshipping false gods. But, seriously, folks, this is the FIRST time I have ever heard of someone receiving TEMPORAL punishment in the here and now for violating the First Commandment.

 

[vz71]

You can revise your statement any way you want. I refuse to revise mine.

You are welcome to hold the position, but I believe some perspective needs to be put in place with it.

The place was shaken to pieces, then the ocean was poured over the area for good measure.

Considering these, the fact that anything at all about the reactor is contained is testament to the safety measures they have in place.

 

[vz71]

Maybe the Japanese are being punished for abortion.

MAYBE the Japanese are being punished by an ungrateful Gaia … after all that the Japanese people have done to save the earth with their electric hybrid cars … Prius and the rest … however many there may be … and this is how Gaia repays them … well, you know the First Commandment warns about worshipping false gods. But, seriously, folks, this is the FIRST time I have ever heard of someone receiving TEMPORAL punishment in the here and now for violating the First Commandment.

Or perhaps the Japanese are not being punished at all.

A coworker has a bumper sticker that I believe applies.
Of course, he had to scrape off a few letters due to censorship laws in effect here, but the legible left gives the message loud and clear…
“it happens”

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Are you actually saying that what is going on in Japan is not a catastrophe? I hope not. Because it most certainly is. You didn’t make it clear but I’m going to assume you are referring solely to the problems in the nuclear power plant(s). I don’t want to misread your post.

.

Of course the earthquake and tsunami are a catastrophe. For the planet, no. For us human beings, of course. Yes, I was referring to the problems in the nuclear plants. Our media is more propaganda than true fact-finding.

I am glad that you aren’t a government-loving liberal. I guess I made some assumptions based on your position on certain issues. I’ve never known anyone who is for states’ rights and also believes in androgenic global warming.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Maybe the Japanese are being punished for abortion.

MAYBE the Japanese are being punished by an ungrateful Gaia … after all that the Japanese people have done to save the earth with their electric hybrid cars … Prius and the rest … however many there may be … and this is how Gaia repays them … well, you know the First Commandment warns about worshipping false gods. But, seriously, folks, this is the FIRST time I have ever heard of someone receiving TEMPORAL punishment in the here and now for violating the First Commandment.

I don’t follow the logic of your post at all. Are you seriously implying that because Japanese car companies produced energy efficient cars (which by the way requires no altruistic motive; there’s demand for such products), that they all worship Gaia and are therefore being punished for not producing enough gas-guzzlers? Is it also a mortal sin to drive a Prius? Or to recycle? Do you, by any chance, happen to drive a Ford Excursion?

vz71:

Or perhaps the Japanese are not being punished at all.

A coworker has a bumper sticker that I believe applies.
Of course, he had to scrape off a few letters due to censorship laws in effect here, but the legible left gives the message loud and clear…
“it happens”

Indeed. Or perhaps God is sending us a message via earthquakes? I think the message is: “don’t build on fault lines between tectonic plates.” Of course, the unfortunate Japanese couldn’t have known about plate tectonics and the causes of earthquakes when they settled there thousands of years ago. But those Californians who repeatedly build their houses on muddy cliffsides, they have no excuse.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Of course the earthquake and tsunami are a catastrophe. For the planet, no. For us human beings, of course. Yes, I was referring to the problems in the nuclear plants. Our media is more propaganda than true fact-finding.

I am glad that you aren’t a government-loving liberal. I guess I made some assumptions based on your position on certain issues. I’ve never known anyone who is for states’ rights and also believes in androgenic global warming.

That’s a problem I have. I don’t fit neatly into any category. I look at each issue separately. So although I am an environmentalist, I’m also pro-life and those are the two main issues in my life (actually being pro-life is more important to me as having a healthy environment means nothing to a dead baby).

I think I belong to the Republican Party but I’m not sure because I switch parties regularly, according to my needs. I’m not liberal and I am; I’m not conservative and I am. I don’t know where to put me.

Government-loving. I guess there are some people who are like that. Honestly, sometimes I’m tempted to hike into the wilds of Montana with a gun and an axe, build a cabin, and hunker down. I have gotten to the point where I would be willing to burn the American flag except that might indicate I hate this country, which I don’t. It’s the government. Corrupt, pro-death, and Obama is the worst of all IMHO. I know he’ll be re-elected. Thank God for term limits.

I should clarify one thing: I don’t believe in AGW. I don’t know what to believe. My gut feeling is that it doesn’t exist or if it does exist humans are not responsible. But then I could be wrong.

I agree with you about the media. After all, most people who work for the media are in it for the money, at least the higher-up staff. Yellow journalism still exists and probably always will.

I guess the best label for me would be “pro-life environmentalist.”