No sadder then the Canadian friend of the family we have that makes yearly pilgrimages to the Southern states…not to visit, but to stock up on grits.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you.
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DCNBILL
Guest
Oh, don’t cry.
I am here to help.
Are you from the government?
For an outlay of a mere $1000.00 you can join the Global Warming Action League. I will send you a training video titled “How to make money out of Global Warming” and I will offer free telephone and email support. In no time at all I will have you selling bottled, CO2 free, cooled, sunshine. You will make a fortune and all the work is done from home. The lifestyle benefits you will achieve are something most people can only dream of. Once my company web site is fully operational you will be given access to a members section where you will learn the true and ancient secrets of bottling CO2 free sunshine. We supply the equipment for sucking the CO2 from the botled sunshine at cost, allowing you to provide a quality product to the consumer. This product is always in great demand in those earthly places where winter is most severe and CO2 free sunshine is at a premium. For an additional small outlay, we will build you an online store, giving your customers 24/7 access to your products. Additionally, you can purchase a Gold Membership, giving you access to the secrets of our premium product which is CO2 free, cooled sunshine. This premium product is particularly popular in the tropical ones. Additionally, our Gold membership entitles you to attend our annual business seminars which are always held in exotic and exclusive locations. At these conferences, you can learn the secrets of successful film making and book writing from those who have built a large following of CO2 free sunshine buyers around the world.
Should you be interested, feel free to contact me.
This sounds just like what I have been looking for, a complete package program where I can do the least amount of work and gain the most profit!Now I only have to pray that it warms up down here because we have been having an exceptionally chilly winter and people are beginning to forget all about this climate change stuff.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
These are serious issues, but you decline to address them.
The forestry industry has been virtually shut down.
And the impact of predators on the salmon has been ignored.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
How much is a reasonable profit?
How does a business determine when they are making reasonable profits and when the profits are unreasonable?
What is the role of competition in adjusting profitability?
If you make arguments or statements such as profits without endangering people or full disclosure of the dangers to their employees … then you need to address these issues.
How does a business determine its profits?
What IS “profits”?
Before you can debate, you need to define your terms and you need to demonstrate that you understand the concepts.
More than statements or assertions are needed.
Were I to use the term “reasonable profit” I would have felt inclined to address what exactly that is. I did not.
I have no idea what exactly ‘reasonable profit’ is.
I know a profit is something the company would need to decide on its own based upon the market forces at work.
Who brought up ‘reasonable profit’ anyway?
It sounds like a term used when someone attempts to dictate a profit margin rather then let normal market forces drive it.
I hear democratic politicians use the term a lot.
Not so much on the republican side of the aisle though.
As I said before, my concern is for the human life, not the environment.
Full disclosure of the dangers would be simply letting each employee know if there is a risk of being injured during the normal process of their employment.
I do not believe it unreasonable to let people know the dangers they may face.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I declined to address them for two reasons:
(1) This is not a semester course on environmentalism and any aspect cannot be completely discussed. They can’t be covered adequately even in a semester course. I don’t have the time to present a tome.
(2) You declined to answer my questions as to whether you actually wanted me to answer your questions or if they were simply rhetorical. I didn’t know and that’s why I asked.
If you want answers I request clarification from the OP, as this (and it’s mostly my fault) is taking the thread further off-topic. If the OP decides it’s OK for us to discuss these parts of the environmental movement I will be happy to answer your questions. If she does not, then we need to discuss these in another thread.
Also, if the OP decides the questions can be answered in this thread I should let you know that I will not be online tomorrow.
I also request that you back up your assertions with evidence and clarification. What do you mean by “the forest industry has been virtually shut down”? What do you mean by “…the impact of predators on the salmon has been ignored”? Is there evidence to back up these assertions? Who has ignored the "impact of predators on the salmon? Me? State government? Federal government? Environmentalists?
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Edward_H
Guest
Just my opinion, but most of this discussion and other discussions elsewhere on the environment turn - for predictable reasons - to “macro-environmentalism”: Globalization, government regulation, legislation, and abstract/global temperature studies that are impossible to sort out, And, in the end they turn into power politics.
Catholics might instead benefit by examining the environment from a closer, more personal and moral point of view.
Do I take care of what God has given ME…where am I too prone to comfort - comfort that itself might be wasteful; what are my attachments, what are my weaknesses in virtues that might have an effect not just on the environment but also on my relationships with others, most importantly God. Does my comfort seeking cause other problems…intemperance in other areas?
Rather than walking 100 meters to the store from the parking lot…do I struggle to find the closest spot, cutting people off and getting tense over parking matters? Such laziness might make me more prone to other forms of pleasure seeking.
What other vices are there, and how might they impact other people’s lives.
These are more important and approachable problems than global climate change - all tense with partisan politics.
Catholics might instead benefit by examining the environment from a closer, more personal and moral point of view.
Do I take care of what God has given ME…where am I too prone to comfort - comfort that itself might be wasteful; what are my attachments, what are my weaknesses in virtues that might have an effect not just on the environment but also on my relationships with others, most importantly God. Does my comfort seeking cause other problems…intemperance in other areas?
Rather than walking 100 meters to the store from the parking lot…do I struggle to find the closest spot, cutting people off and getting tense over parking matters? Such laziness might make me more prone to other forms of pleasure seeking.
What other vices are there, and how might they impact other people’s lives.
These are more important and approachable problems than global climate change - all tense with partisan politics.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Addendum to post #81:
More than statements or assertions are needed.
More than statements or assertions are needed.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you, Edward. I think perhaps what you’ve said is more on-topic than much of what has been posted here. Thank you for bringing in the Catholicism part.
If I’m able, do I start a garden? Do I support farmers who grow organic food by buying their products, even if these products cost more and the fruit doesn’t look as nice? Do I poison the grass so I can kill it easily and plant new grass? Do I use a small flame-thrower to kill weeds, even after I set the neighbor’s back yard on fire by doing so during the summer season (actually I was the neighbor whose yard was set on fire)? Do I burn the yard waste to get it out of the way or do I let it accumulate and put it out with the trash on the days it’s picked up for free? Do I build an incinerator and burn my trash? If I own a grass farm do I burn the grass at the end of the season?
Do I buy an SUV if I don’t need one and can get by with a much smaller car? Do I buy a 40 foot used RV (they’re cheap now while the 13-17 foot light trailers are newer and more expensive)? Do I buy an ATV and drive on the dunes illegally because I think it’s fun? Do I drive off-road, over lizards and snakes that aren’t able to get out of the way in time? Am I destroying fragile ecosystems while I do this? Do I care?
Do I respect the world God put us in charge of? Does this include respecting other people? If I don’t care about this world, can I really say I care about God?
I believe you are setting up a false dichotomy here.
Driving illegally on the dunes is of course illegal and should not be done.
As deliberately running down animals would be immoral.
But you are mixing immoral and illegal activities with morally neutral ones.
If one has the means, why shouldn’t they satisfy a want?
Assuming of course the want is not illegal or immoral.
What business is it of yours if I wish to drive the biggest vehicle I can afford?
Isn’t it my money that will be needed to fuel the thing?
Isn’t it my money that will have to maintain the machinery?
Am I not paying enough here without someone placing the improper burden of immorality upon me?
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
Sorry.
You guys raise issues and then, when slightly challenged in the least little bit, you walk away.
Booo.
You guys raise issues and then, when slightly challenged in the least little bit, you walk away.
Booo.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Slightly challenged? Walk away? I’m not walking away. I’m right here, right now.
I asked two questions. They were not answered. I requested clarification. I did not receive it. I was not aware that I was being “challenged.”
“More than statements and assertions are needed.” I read that somewhere in this thread. But when I request more than statements and assertions I am told that I walk away when slightly challenged.
I don’t want to discuss the posters here. I want to discuss the issues. In order to do so, I need clarification from the OP and also from you. I wasn’t going to even be online today but I can’t go where I planned to go so I am here.
“Booo?” What does that have to do with the issues? Ad hominems are ALWAYS off-topic.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I am not.
Why not? As Catholics we’re not required to adhere to any immoral law. So why isn’t it perfectly acceptable to drive up and down the dunes all day?
I agree that deliberately running down animals is immoral, as is going out to the desert with guns and shooting rattlesnakes.
I am not doing so.
We are the stewards of this planet. It’s immoral to waste resources and to add to air pollution. It shows disrespect to God.
It’s my business and your business and everyone’s business.
How should I know?
How should I know?
How should I know if you’re “paying enough here?” I don’t know. For all I know people who drive huge RVs are stealing the money to pay for the gas needed for these behemoths that get about three mpg. I’m not psychic! As for SUVs I believe it is immoral to drive one unless one has a very good reason. I drive an SUV - a mid-size. I have a very good reason for driving it. But I’m not happy at all that I have become forced to drive an SUV. It’s not my choice.
And I’m not “placing the improper burden of immorality upon [you].”
We all have free will. That’s one of the gifts God gave us, along with the gift of this world. We are supposed to be stewards of this world. If we neglect our duties in order to fill our “wants” (please notice I did not use the word “needs”) we are not showing proper respect to God. We also are most likely trying to fill up empty places within ourselves with material goods. Not only does that not work, our confusion about what we really need can result in increased air pollution.
What we need is God. What we want should be exactly the same - God.
So then you have the burden of showing some kind of waste and appreciable increase of air pollution.
Really? Why?
What exactly makes it the business of everyone else how my money is spent?
No doubt part of the 10 commandements.
Perhaps command 1.5, ‘thou shalt not buy a car other people cannot afford’
The answer is simple. Don’t drive it.
There are a number of alternatives available to you.
Of course, this burden is only there if one mistakenly believes SUV’s are immoral.
In actuality, they are not. They are simply another tool. Like hammers, knives, and guns.
Then there would be a burden upon you to show how owning and driving an SUV is in any way immoral.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
There is no burden upon me. If I thought there was a chance of open-mindedness in this thread I would post what I have read and studied. I don’t believe there is, and as the OP still has not clarified her initial post, I have to go by the title of this thread, which includes the term “Climate Change” and IMO that has been discussed already (and woe be to anyone who actually thinks there’s a possibility that it just might be a real problem and posts in this thread). Although air pollution may contribute to global warming (if it exists) a discussion of air pollution *per se *is simply off-topic.
If you want answers I request clarification from the OP, as this (and it’s mostly my fault) is taking the thread further off-topic. If the OP decides it’s OK for us to discuss these parts of the environmental movement I will be happy to answer your questions. If she does not, then we need to discuss these in another thread.
(I suggest you google “Air pollution caused by SUVs” if you want more information.)
So - until the OP states that it is OK to discuss this, I’m going to stop taking the thread further off-topic. However, I would like to correct one mistake. I was under the impression that I have a mid-size SUV. I was wrong. It’s a compact-SUV. And you have no idea of my situation and cannot possibly know what options are open to me.
And as far as why it’s anyone’s business as to how you spend your money, I will say this:
“No man is an Island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.” - John Donne
God bless you, vz71. I am being very serious here. I will respond to your questions if the OP states her approval. Please feel free to start a new thread about your concerns. If you provide a link I will most likely join in. I can back up everything I stated. As for convincing you - that is not my job but yours.
:twocents::twocents:: duly deposited.
So how exactly is a choice of how I spend my money any business of everyone else?
That is a nice quote, and upon morality it would seem pertinent.
But in the realm of morally neutral decisions, it is misapplied.
I doubt that.
The idea that it is a sin to own an SUV is indefensible.
It is my belief that your concern for the OP topic (however vague) is merely a cover for an idea that cannot be defended.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
It is a nice quote, isn’t it?
I really like it. IMO it is not misapplied. And now the moral neutrality has been changed from the SUV itself to the decisions (I assume these are the decisions as to whether one should buy one and/or operate one). An SUV cannot make moral decisions. It is, indeed, a neutral object. But the decisions a person makes are rarely (if ever) morally neutral.Fortunately for me, I really don’t care if one doubts me because I know I am telling the truth. So does God. I don’t lie. When I did so in the past I got a sick feeling in my stomach. I don’t lie. I don’t lie. I absolutely do not lie.
Please show me where I said it is a sin. If it is a sin, then I am sinning by owning one. My reference was to driving an SUV. I didn’t even bring up the wastefulness of manufacturing an SUV. If that weren’t a waste of resources I would say that owning an SUV and leaving it at home while riding a bike to work would be fine - not very bright perhaps, but fine.
Response (from post #88):
(bolding in both quotes added)
And THAT is exactly why I don’t believe there is any open-mindedness in this thread. It seems to be down to two posters - you and me. I’m not going to discuss you. I will be happy to discuss the topic of this thread, as it is indicated by the title.
As to the reading of my post, only I (and God) have a comprehensive idea of my circumstances and how far I will go to back up what I have stated.
And, fortunately for me, I’m not allowed to discuss other posters. And so I won’t.
If you want to discuss other aspects, please feel free to start a new thread. As I am an avid environmentalist I may join in. Or maybe I won’t (I am feeling some hostility in this thread).
In the meantime, if anyone is really seriously interested, please check it out for yourself by googling. There are many websites which back up the claim that SUVs contribute significantly more to air pollution than regular cars. Fortunately hybrid SUVs are being manufactured - ooops, I went off-topic again. Imagine that. My apologies.
:twocents::twocents::twocents: duly deposited
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John21652
Guest
If this thread is down to two posters it is because they are arguing over personal issues. That sort of cuts others out, don’t you think?
When the debate gets down to how much pollution an SUV produces compared to an ordinary car, well, that’s being pedantic. SUVs. like cars, come with many different engineering configurations and so the debate is peurile. meanwhile, according to AGW theory, humans are doing a lot of other things besides drive cars that is causing the world to heat up. That debate, contrary to popular opinion, isn’t yet complete. Too many have staked their reputations one way or the other and they wont give up easily.
This article, in The Hindu, informs us that Indian scientists think around 40% of warming, if any, is due to cosmic rays. The article is pertinent because India’s own R.K. Pachauri is IPCC chairman. He wont give up easily.
Meanwhile, Kimmielittle has started this thread to see what comes next. It would seem that good stewardship of the environment is her cause celebre, as it should be, because that is Catholic doctrine. However, my question is and has been for a long, long time, how can the world recieve ‘good stewardship’ when such a great proportion of the world’s population lives in urban centres and therefore is disassociated from the natural world? Human’s have successfully built for themselves a more secure, predictable environment, but it is an artificial one, lived on and inside concrete dwellings with artificial climates… Are we destined, because of this, to rely on big ugly environmental bureacracies to carry out our ‘good stewardship’ and do our thinking for us? And because of our new and improved human condition, which includes a detachment from the natural world, are we therefore more prone to ‘propoganda’ spewed forth by those same bureacracies?
So you believe it is a sin to drive a praticular type of vehicle.
But it is not a sin to purchase it, or manufacture it.
Please show me where exactly this is covered within the Catechism.
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