Catholicism and Climate Change: The Sequel

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There are many websites which back up the claim that SUVs contribute significantly more to air pollution than regular cars.
I noticed that you signature line includes something about service dogs - are you aware that the carbon footprint for a dog is greater than that of an SUV? If you have a dog and I have an SUV it is you who are contributing more “pollution” than I. Does this mean it is immoral to own a dog?

pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_650786.html

Ender
 
I noticed that you signature line includes something about service dogs - are you aware that the carbon footprint for a dog is greater than that of an SUV? If you have a dog and I have an SUV it is you who are contributing more “pollution” than I. Does this mean it is immoral to own a dog?

pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_650786.html

Ender
There is obviously some confusion here. First of all, I have one service dog, not “dogs” as is indicated in the first sentence of your post.

Thank you for the link and for bringing the thread back onto topic. I haven’t been successful in doing so.

Here are some statements from the article:

"The push in Congress for a huge new carbon tax is a dangerous farce. Yes, CO2 levels and global temperatures have risen since the Industrial Revolution. But the political reality is that truly meaningful global restrictions on CO2 emissions in the near future simply will not happen and pretending otherwise is a waste of time, money and political capital.

"The Pew Research Center poll last month showed that belief in, and concern for, climate change is evaporating. Belief in global warming has dropped from 71 percent in April to 57 percent; only 36 percent believe man is mostly responsible for climate change. Only 35 percent of respondents said it’s a “very serious problem,” down from 41 percent.

"This is after more than a decade of near-relentless fearmongering – er, sorry, “education” – from Al Gore, academia and Hollywood. They can’t persuade the American people to spend trillions for less than a degree Celsius of cooling a century from now.

"No doubt the fact that neither climate models nor doomsday predictions have panned out (there has been no increase in global temperatures since 1998) is a big part of the story.

"But the bigger reason for the shift is that Democrats are threatening to really do something about it and the costs no longer seem hypothetical. Throw in a bad economy and Americans simply balk.

"But the anti-global-warming industry seems to be on autopilot, churning out books that only half-jokingly propose eating your pets. Others insist that Americans will have to restrict themselves to only one child, just like in authoritarian China. If those are the costs, free people will not pay them.

"If you cannot afford – politically, morally or economically – the solution to a perceived problem, then it’s not a solution. We cannot afford to end the use of carbon-based energy. So a better strategy is to develop remedies for the bad side effects of carbon use.

"That’s the case Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner make in their book “SuperFreakonomics,” which is already being torn apart by environmentalists horrified at the notion they might lose their license to get things done as they see fit.

"Is the atmosphere getting too hot? Cool it down by reflecting away more sunlight. The ocean’s getting too acidic? Give it some antacid.

“The technology’s not ready. But pursuing it for a couple of decades will cost pennies compared with carbon rationing. Moreover, you just might get to keep your dog.”

At the present time, I haven’t been presented with any evidence that global warming really exists and/or that humans are responsible for it if it does. I’m not concerned with global warming. The thread had gone off-topic, onto general pollution. I’ve already admitted (twice) that going off-topic was mostly my fault. My apologies.

NOTE: Sarcasm filter disabled.

I have no problem with what your article states. I also think that if I were required to get rid of a service dog and my SUV by the government, couples should be required to have a maximum of one child. If another child is conceived, that child should be aborted. If that child is born, she should be murdered. And anyone over 60 should be euthanized for the good of the environment. I guess maybe I should be euthanized too. I’m not very productive anymore after getting hurt. I’m sure I’m putting a huge strain on the environment.

So, let’s kill all the dogs, babies (past the one that couples are allowed to have), elderly people, and disabled people.

That will ease the carbon load on the environment.

But the government will have to come get me. And I won’t be at home. I’ll be at the beach, throwing antacid pills into the ocean.
 
So, let’s kill all the dogs, babies (past the one that couples are allowed to have), elderly people, and disabled people.

That will ease the carbon load on the environment.

But the government will have to come get me. And I won’t be at home. I’ll be at the beach, throwing antacid pills into the ocean.
So what is the carbon footprint of a decomposing body?
 
So you believe it is a sin to drive a praticular type of vehicle.
But it is not a sin to purchase it, or manufacture it.
:confused:

Please show me where exactly this is covered within the Catechism.
The CCC is a guide. It can’t possibly cover all Church teaching.

And I don’t know why this didn’t get across, but I clearly stated that “I believe.” Am I allowed to have an opinion? All I did was state my opinion. It would be a sin for me to drive an SUV if I don’t have a very good reason for doing so.

I don’t know if it would be a sin for anyone else. I don’t know their reasons for driving an SUV. I only know my reasons.

Please, let’s stay on topic.
 
As for SUVs I believe it is immoral to drive one unless one has a very good reason.
I don’t know why this didn’t get across, but I clearly stated that “I believe.” Am I allowed to have an opinion? All I did was state my opinion. It would be a sin for me to drive an SUV if I don’t have a very good reason for doing so.

I don’t know if it would be a sin for anyone else. I don’t know their reasons for driving an SUV. I only know my reasons.

Please, let’s stay on topic.
Thanks for the clarification.
For a minute I thought you believed it a sin to drive an SUV.

Now I understand it to be your own personal morality.
I can accept that.
 
If this thread is down to two posters it is because they are arguing over personal issues. That sort of cuts others out, don’t you think?
It can cut others out, especially if the topic is vague.
When the debate gets down to how much pollution an SUV produces compared to an ordinary car, well, that’s being pedantic. SUVs. like cars, come with many different engineering configurations and so the debate is peurile. meanwhile, according to AGW theory, humans are doing a lot of other things besides drive cars that is causing the world to heat up. That debate, contrary to popular opinion, isn’t yet complete. Too many have staked their reputations one way or the other and they wont give up easily.
I agree.
This article, in The Hindu, informs us that Indian scientists think around 40% of warming, if any, is due to cosmic rays. The article is pertinent because India’s own R.K. Pachauri is IPCC chairman. He wont give up easily.
Meanwhile, Kimmielittle has started this thread to see what comes next. It would seem that good stewardship of the environment is her cause celebre, as it should be, because that is Catholic doctrine. However, my question is and has been for a long, long time, how can the world recieve ‘good stewardship’ when such a great proportion of the world’s population lives in urban centres and therefore is disassociated from the natural world? Human’s have successfully built for themselves a more secure, predictable environment, but it is an artificial one, lived on and inside concrete dwellings with artificial climates… Are we destined, because of this, to rely on big ugly environmental bureacracies to carry out our ‘good stewardship’ and do our thinking for us? And because of our new and improved human condition, which includes a detachment from the natural world, are we therefore more prone to ‘propoganda’ spewed forth by those same bureacracies?
I would love to discuss those issues. I don’t know anything about them. My knowledge is limited. I trust you, John. If you believe that is the way this thread should go (and adding in the fact that the OP has disappeared; I hope she’s OK), then please lead on and I will sit back and read and learn and maybe even post if I think I have something to offer.

And thank you very much. I obviously have not succeeded in getting this thread back onto topic, the OP is vague, and I don’t want to fight with people.
 
I noticed that you signature line includes something about service dogs - are you aware that the carbon footprint for a dog is greater than that of an SUV? If you have a dog and I have an SUV it is you who are contributing more “pollution” than I. Does this mean it is immoral to own a dog?

pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_650786.html

Ender
I have a service dog and an SUV. Is it less immoral to own a chihuahua than a Burmese mountain dog? What about owning a service mouse? Wouldn’t that be even better?

Actually the point I want to make is that, although the article is well written, it is discussing a book. There is no documentation provided that backs up the assertion that “the carbon footprint for a dog is greater than that of an SUV.”

Believing everything that is printed online (as long as it supports a preconceived notion) can be a mistake, as can be taking one little bit of information out of context.

However, I did find the following about the authors of the aforementioned book:

“Robert and Brenda Vale are research fellows at the School of Architecture at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. They are the authors of The Autonomous House, Green Architecture and The New Autonomous House, all published by Thames & Hudson. In 1994 they won the United Nations Global 500 Award for Environmental Achievement.”

thamesandhudson.com/9780500287903.html

Because of their education and their emphasis on research, I accept their conclusions about the carbon footprint of a dog (although the size of the dog is not mentioned in the article to which you provided a link) and an SUV (although the size of the SUV is not mentioned, nor is the possibility raised that a hybrid SUV produces less “global warming” pollution than non-hybrid SUVs, again in the article to which you provided a link). I assume these variables are controlled adequately during the study.

In order to really understand what the authors are saying it would be necessary to read the book.
 
It can cut others out, especially if the topic is vague.

I agree.

I would love to discuss those issues. I don’t know anything about them. My knowledge is limited. I trust you, John. If you believe that is the way this thread should go (and adding in the fact that the OP has disappeared; I hope she’s OK), then please lead on and I will sit back and read and learn and maybe even post if I think I have something to offer.

And thank you very much. I obviously have not succeeded in getting this thread back onto topic, the OP is vague, and I don’t want to fight with people.
Well, I certainly hope you will post, as you have great experience working in environmental matters!

My argument is fairly simple. In todays world, the vast numbers that live in mega metropolises are disassociated from the natural world. They live, work and die inside these artificial environments. Their food is delivered into their environment, their fuel is delivered, all the trappings of their metropolitan lives are delivered to them. Conversley, their waste is taken away and dealt with by others. There are costs associated with the supply of goods and services which they either don’t pay for at all, or that they pay a token amount for when they make a purchase. Tale rubbish disposal, for instance. An individual might pay a token amount for the disposal of their waste, which covers the picking up, transporting and burial of the refuse. However, do a bit of Googling and you can find photos of land being sequestered for this purpose. That land is lost with regard to any other use it may have been put to. That loss is not factored into the cost of refuse disposal. Type into Google the phrase “externalities associated with pollution” and a list of articles will be offered which explain the costs which are “external” to the user of a good or service.

Now, because the majority of the population are disassociated from the natural world, they rely on others for information about what is happening in and to that natural world. In most western nations you will find government bureacracies such as the Environment Protection Agency, who identify and deal with these externalities. Then comes the political pressure groups who are avowed " environmentalists", or “animal welfare” proponents and suddenly we have a highly politicised debate regarding the natural world. Other issues are brought into the argument, such as what degree of government interference should there be in this issue? Or should certain aspects of our lifestyles be banned altogether? The anti-fossil fuel argument has resulted in the building of massive wind turbines all over the world and then the debate includes the aesthetics of the environment, the efficiency of the wind turbines and whether or not the lifestyle of the average city citizen can be maintained with such high energy requirements. Now what is the average citizen to make of all of this? The average citizen is told all sorts of things about what is happening to the natural environment, and because the average citizen is disassociated from that natural environment, he/she is totally reliant upon the information which is delivered to them.

The global warming debate has highlighted just how much the hapless citizen is reliant upon the efforts of others for information and as we are beginning to learn, much of that information is not always accurate. In fact, some of it is downright ideological. Some of it is fanatical and some of it is fanatically fanciful. Now the Catholic Church tells us that we must be good stewards of the earth and all that it contains. How can your average citien be a good steward of that from which he/she is disassociated and about which he/she is so reliant upon others for knowledge and understanding of?
 
Nuclear energy also reminds them of nuclear (atom) bombs, which have been used in war and have killed millions of people, therefore nuclear power must also be very dangerous and it might also kill millions of people. I guess they just ignore France, which has been using nuclear power to its great benefit for decades (no Three Mile Island - type accidents). Nuclear is safe, would take care of a lot of our energy problems (not carbon-burning engines though), and is truly the “green” energy the enviros are desperate for, but they are too stupidly blind to understand that.
To clarify:

“Deaths caused by the atomic bombings include those that occurred on the days of the bombings due to the overwhelming force and heat of the blasts as well as later deaths attributable to radiation exposure. The total number of deaths is not known precisely because military personnel records in each city were destroyed; entire families perished, leaving no one to report deaths; and unknown numbers of forced laborers were present in both cities.”

Estimated population size and number of acute (within two to four months) deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki after the atomic bombings:

Hiroshima: 90,000-166,000 persons
Nagasaki: 60,000-80,000 persons

rerf.or.jp/general/qa_e/qa1.html

Even if the high estimates are used, approximately 246,000 persons were killed - less than 1/4 of a million persons and certainly not “millions.”

I am just clarifying something stated in a previous post.
 
Edit to above post:

I have to clarify my clarification. I deleted the part of the table which showed the reported total population in each city. The numbers listed are low to high estimates of actual deaths due to the dropping of the nuclear bombs in Hiroshimi and Nagasaki.

I apologize for the error.
 
Now wait a minute. That was not there the last time I looked and I don’t think you got that in in (in in :D) the required 20 minute window.

How did you do that?

That is one cool -]photo/-] melange of photos. I am impressed. I’d like to have a t-shirt with that on it. Can you imagine if one of those came charging towards you? Scary.

I have been musing over your theory and I like it. I grew up in a huge megapolis (I know that such a thing exists in Australia, too). It covered L.A., Orange County, and parts of Riverside and San Berdue Counties. It is bigger today. The only way one can know if he/she is leaving one city and entering another is by a sign. There is no green between the cities. The buildings and concrete go on and on and on. Sometimes there are green areas that pop up but they disappear eventually because new houses, strip malls, or industrial parks are built there. Orange groves in Riverside County are mostly a thing of the past. I’ve seen them disappear for new housing tracts. Beautiful houses, but they don’t have that sweet aroma of orange blossoms.

Now I live in a completely different environment. The towns here were established near rivers. That’s where the logging companies built the towns. They basically were in charge of doing so. Some of those towns have gone bust, but many (such as the one I live in) are prospering and growing.

Between the towns on the coast are 15-20 miles of road, forest, and coastline. If one drives inland (whether in a car, SUV, truck, motorcycle, or bicycle), there is a 60 mile stretch which is mostly forest, with a few extremely small towns that one can pass through and miss if he/she blinks an eye.

The two environments are completely different. I think you’re correct in what you say. I’ve seen both sides now. Even using the Internet it’s very difficult to know who is telling the truth, who is confused, and who is lying. I’ve read a lot about global warming by googling. What I’ve found is “it exists and anybody who says it doesn’t is an idiot” and “it doesn’t exist and anybody who says it does is an idiot.” How is the average person supposed to know? The reason I don’t believe global warming exists, or if it does it is part of a natural cycle, is because of the petition signed by 37,000 scientists. But how do I really know that petition is not a hoax? More studying, more reading, checking on names, checking out universities, talking to people…

How many people have time to do that? Most people have families and have to work to provide for those families. And I do know that global warming (if it exists) does not trump feeding one’s children. Same goes for logging.

Now I have a question. If CO2 is necessary for plant life (which it is) and plants provide oxygen (which they do), does it make sense to clear-cut, even if new trees are planted (it takes decades for those new trees to reach maturity)? I’m also concerned about the logging of old-growth redwood trees. They can take over 3,000 years to reach maturity, although they continue growing for their entire lives. I haven’t done enough research on this, but it seems that the redwood forests are disappearing. I think it’s because the wood is of such high quality and also because logging companies are running out of trees to log and are now logging trees on federal land (remember, I haven’t researched this enough; I could be completely wrong about this).
 
I’m sorry, but I don’t see what this has to do with the topic. At all. :confused:
 
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John21652:
Now, because the majority of the population are disassociated from the natural world, they rely on others for information about what is happening in and to that natural world. In most western nations you will find government bureacracies such as the Environment Protection Agency, who identify and deal with these externalities. Then comes the political pressure groups who are avowed " environmentalists", or “animal welfare” proponents and suddenly we have a highly politicised debate regarding the natural world. Other issues are brought into the argument, such as what degree of government interference should there be in this issue? Or should certain aspects of our lifestyles be banned altogether? The anti-fossil fuel argument has resulted in the building of massive wind turbines all over the world and then the debate includes the aesthetics of the environment, the efficiency of the wind turbines and whether or not the lifestyle of the average city citizen can be maintained with such high energy requirements. Now what is the average citizen to make of all of this? The average citizen is told all sorts of things about what is happening to the natural environment, and because the average citizen is disassociated from that natural environment, he/she is totally reliant upon the information which is delivered to them.
What do you propose as a solution to this dissociation from nature? That we all move back out to the country and reorient ourselves to agricultural life? Our dissociation from nature, as well as all our ‘bureaucracies’, are simply the result of the division of labor that, whatever its side effects, has driven the increasing economic prosperity of modern capitalist economies for two centuries. We all live clustered together in cities and suburbs, each playing a specialized role in society, and leave all the other chores to other people to whom those specialized roles belong. So of course doctors and engineers can’t dispose of their own garbage, grow their own vegetables, and slaughter their own meat; if they could, or if they had to, they wouldn’t be as good of doctors or engineers. Thus, they rely on others to handle all the other tasks.

And also, bring around nature doesn’t necessarily mean one is much better informed about environmental problems. I’ve been to countless national parks in every corner of this country, though especially parks in the northwest (I’ve been to Glacier National Park several times), yet that doesn’t exactly make me qualified to expound on how fast the glaciers are melting and what effect this may have.

Giant wind turbines are perhaps best explained as phallic symbols meant to convey the message: “our university’s green program is bigger than yours.” I have a big giant windmill on my campus. One nice thing about it is that it’s so tall I can find my way back to campus if I get lost anywhere within a few miles. Personally, I think nuclear power is more promising.

Others, by the way, have similarly questioned the division of labor and called urbanites to return to nature: “In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, shepherd or critic.” – Karl Marx.

If I didn’t know any better, John, I just might suspect you of being a communist. :eek:

Just kidding.
 
OK John, I’ve looked up some sites that discuss “externalities associated with pollution” along with externalities associated with other things and I think I understand what you are saying. Knowing the negative externalities associated with pollution requires knowing everything that is affected by that pollution and everything that affects that pollution.

Like so many other parts of our lives, it’s like dropping a pebble into a calm pond and as the ripples extend outward they affect more and more areas. For example, smoking tobacco can result in others inhaling second-hand smoke and developing illnesses related to that, which in turn affects health care costs, quality, etc. And that, in turn, affects something else which affects something else. Also, (and I am only presenting this as a possibility) it might be that the number of baby boomers who still smoke is dwindling as those baby boomers die off, which could result in less second-hand smoke and less negative consequences on health of people who inhale that smoke.

So, in the pond, it’s more like dropping a pebble into a pond which already has ripples in it. As the ripples extend outward from the place where the pebble was dropped they meet ripples coming the other way and those ripples influence each other. It’s all intertwined, mixed, with factors that may seem far removed but may not be.

In other words, it’s difficult to tease out all the factors that are involved in a subject such as pollution, but those factors exist and interact with other factors and it’s very complicated and the average person needs to know who to trust because those that really understand are few and far between, if they even exist at all.

Do I have it right?
 
What do you propose as a solution to this dissociation from nature? That we all move back out to the country and reorient ourselves to agricultural life? Our dissociation from nature, as well as all our ‘bureaucracies’, are simply the result of the division of labor that, whatever its side effects, has driven the increasing economic prosperity of modern capitalist economies for two centuries. We all live clustered together in cities and suburbs, each playing a specialized role in society, and leave all the other chores to other people to whom those specialized roles belong. So of course doctors and engineers can’t dispose of their own garbage, grow their own vegetables, and slaughter their own meat; if they could, or if they had to, they wouldn’t be as good of doctors or engineers. Thus, they rely on others to handle all the other tasks.
I don’t live clustered in a city or suburb and most of the people I know don’t, either. Hunting and/or fishing/crabbing is very popular here. I’ve eaten beef from a cow slaughtered on a friend’s ranch.
And also, bring around nature doesn’t necessarily mean one is much better informed about environmental problems. I’ve been to countless national parks in every corner of this country, though especially parks in the northwest (I’ve been to Glacier National Park several times), yet that doesn’t exactly make me qualified to expound on how fast the glaciers are melting and what effect this may have.
There is a big difference between “being around nature” and actually living in a small town where there is a forest behind your back yard, along with bears, raccoons, and bobcats every once in awhile.
Giant wind turbines are perhaps best explained as phallic symbols meant to convey the message: “our university’s green program is bigger than yours.” I have a big giant windmill on my campus. One nice thing about it is that it’s so tall I can find my way back to campus if I get lost anywhere within a few miles. Personally, I think nuclear power is more promising.
Phallic symbols? :eek:
 
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