Catholicism and Climate Change

[kimmielittle]

…which is why Catholics and good Christians, and good, sensible folks of all religions need to get involved in the environmental movement, so it won’t be hijacked by extremists.

The movement is so thoroughly hijacked. The only way to cause a change - is to not fund them …AND be a skeptic about what they claim. DO your own research …NOT limited to researching just their claims, BUT who is behind the claims. Who funds the organizations. etc.

Remember the best tool to help the environment and cases of Natural disasters - is a healthy economy - without a healthy economy you have nothing to work with. No support to offer survivors Of Natural Disasters…or money for ** proven** conservation efforts.

I invite all to join me in mitigating environmental problems in loving and sensible ways, so as to reduce our harms to future generations. That’s all I ask.

Contrary to popular belief…most labeled as “denialist” “skeptics”…ARE active in conservation projects. I guess the saying here, is a good one, " Know thy enemy"

 

[kimmielittle]

In ALL my research, I have not found one major environmentalist group without funding from / or ties with such as Soros - Gore - Turner - Tides Foundations /projects, Environmental Media… etc. This includes, IPCC, CRU, RealClimate, GreenPeace, WWF, Earth1st,…Even the UN…et al.

“It doesn’t matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.”
– Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace

“We’ve got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy.”
– Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation

We know UN Population Control Panel - WHO… supports Marie Stopes International

 

[kimmielittle]

RealClimate Association with Environmental Media Service - A Tides Project.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=693&pictureid=4846

As this clearly shows EMS has always Hosted this site from Nov 19 2004
And will expire Nov 19 2010

 

[kimmielittle]

The Science Communication Network (SCN) …is an offshoot of Environmental Media Services (EMS). Fenton Communications ]…which is a “Project” Of Tides Foundation.

"
Environmental Media Services

 	Also known as a "project" of the Tides Center
1320 18th Street, NW, 	Suite 500, 	Washington, 	DC 	20036
**Phone** 202-463-6670 | 	**Fax** 202-463-6671 | 	**Email** [EMAIL="ems@ems.org"]ems@ems.org[/EMAIL]

The Tides Foundation is an unusual philanthropy in many ways, not the least of which is that it gives away other foundations’ money. Corporations, individuals, and other foundations can all use Tides as a pass-through vehicle, “designating” that their cash be funneled to tax-exempt third parties. Tides is also unusual in that it runs its own “incubator” for these nonprofit entities, a subsidiary called the Tides Center that runs the day-to-day operations of new activist groups so they can focus on making life difficult for the rest of us. The end result is a “foundation” that uses its own tax-exemption as a sort of blanket coverage for newly-formed nonprofits (all of them left-of-center), while funding them with money that originates somewhere else.
In this arrangement, startup activist groups don’t have to risk being turned down when they ask the IRS for tax-exempt status: they just ride piggy-back on Tides’s exemption, giving them the same privileges extended to churches and universities without having to satisfy any real requirements. And big-money donors with anti-corporate or anti-consumer leanings can readily fund the lunatic fringe without having to disclose where their money went. They only need mention in their tax returns that a donation was made to the Tides Center, and their legal obligations are fulfilled. One more curious side effect of this deal is that newly-incubated activist groups (what Tides calls “projects”) can appear to have absolutely no expenses of their own for employees, lobbyists, or fundraising contractors, as Tides officially cuts all the checks.’

activistcash.com/organiza…ew.cfm/oid/110

 

[lynnvinc]

In ALL my research, I have not found one major environmentalist group without funding from / or ties with such as Soros - Gore - Turner - Tides Foundations /projects, Environmental Media… etc. This includes, IPCC, CRU, RealClimate, GreenPeace, WWF, Earth1st,…Even the UN…et al.

Just goes to show that not all rich people are bad, some even have consciences. And to think I had thought they were ALL into destroying life on planet earth. Nevertheless, I still don’t trust rich guys (actually multinational frankencorps) to do the right thing, just because a few are good.

Quote:
“It doesn’t matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.”
– Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace

Looks like someone’s been stealing sociologist W.I Thomas’s famous theorum: “If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.”

Which means if lots of people define AGW as a hoax and fail to mitigate it, then we are in for a VERY ROUGH RIDE – or at least our progeny are.

Quote:
“We’ve got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy.”
– Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation

Wow, he understands the difference between avoiding the FALSE NEGATIVE on AGW of failing to mitigate a true problem, and the really great benefits of the FALSE POSITIVE – mitigating AGW when it isn’t happening, which would be terrific for the economy and for reducing a plethora of many other environmental and non-environmental problems. THE BEST OF ALL WORLD scenario. And I had thought I was the only one who understood it. I do, however, take credit for coming to realize it first.

Just wish more than Wirth and myself understood it. It’s not complicated or difficult. Really. It is the prudent, Christian thing to do, mitigate AGW whether it is happening or not. And reap all the health and wealth rewards if it is not happening, and avoid a ltotal iving hell if it is happening.

 

[lynnvinc]

RealClimate Association with Environmental Media Service - A Tides Project.

As this clearly shows EMS has always Hosted this site from Nov 19 2004
And will expire Nov 19 2010

God bless EMS, God bless them. Aren’t they just wonderful. Before RC came on line in 2004, I had this fear that Exxon and other fossil fuel industries would buy off all the scientists. But thru RC I’ve come to realize there are some true heroes in this world – the climate scientist, who hold their ground against the vicious and evil attacks – including death threats – of the denialist. And it is getting more and more vicious, the more certain the science is becoming. Some have to hire body guards to protect them and their families.

But bec of RC, you can still hear a voice of scientific rationality and knowledge crying in the wilderness of of falsehoods, slanders, and out-and-out deceptions, “Houston, we’ve got a problem” and “Failure is not an option.”

 

[Calliso]

This is what it says on RealClimates page about their host.

RealClimate is not affiliated with any environmental organisations. Although our domain is hosted by Science Communications Network (and previously Environmental Media Services), and our initial press release was organised for us by Fenton Communications, neither organization was in any way involved in the initial planning for RealClimate, and have never had any editorial or other control over content. Neither Fenton nor SCN nor EMS has ever paid any contributor to RealClimate.org any money for any purpose at any time. Neither do they pay us expenses, buy our lunch or contract us to do research. This information has always been made clear to anyone who asked.

Being hosted by one of these companies is not the same as being funded by them.

 

[lynnvinc]

RealClimate Association with Environmental Media Service - A Tides Project.

As this clearly shows EMS has always Hosted this site from Nov 19 2004
And will expire Nov 19 2010

Well, I looked it up, and RC has this to say about EMS a couple of months after it started:
A disclaimer

Filed under: Climate Science In the News— eric @ 14 February 2005

Readers of the Feb. 14th, 2005 Wall Street Journal may have gotten the impression that RealClimate is in some way affiliated with an environmental organisation. We wish to stress that although our domain is being hosted by Environmental Media Services, and our initial press release was organised for us by Fenton Communications, neither organization was in any way involved in the initial planning for RealClimate, and have never had any editorial or other control over content. Neither Fenton nor EMS has ever paid any contributor to RealClimate.org any money for any purpose at any time. Neither do they pay us expenses, buy our lunch or contract us to do research. All of these facts have always been made clear to everyone who asked (see for instance: sciencemag.org/content/vol306/issue5705/netwatch.shtml).
Now, if only Exxon and Koch Industries, etc, would totally dry up all funds to denialists spokepersons, we might just be able to get back to real climate science, and on with solving the problem, instead hordes of scared people sticking their heads in the sand of obfuscation provided by these corps, blocking the way.

As the Papau New Guinea man said at the Bali climate meeting to the U.S. Delagate (who had come to block any action to solve the problem of AGW) – “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.”

 

[markbrumbaugh]

kimmielittle…thanks for carrying the torch for those of us with common sense, scientific inquiring minds, and a sense of priority.
You do know you are wasting your time though. People devoid of the ability to logically examine data, and thus who are ruled by emotion, cannot change their mind based on facts and data. Instead they are uncommonly accepting of the most ostentatious charlatans. Note to moderator…I’m not saying that applies to anyone in particular on this forum…just my observation from arguing various issues with people who depend more on their feelings and prediction of calamity, than they do proper cause and effect analysis.
I suspect they have worse things to say about me and have said it.

Nothing disturbs anxiety more than facts.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Well, I looked it up, and RC has this to say about EMS a couple of months after it started:
A disclaimer

Filed under: Climate Science In the News— eric @ 14 February 2005

Readers of the Feb. 14th, 2005 Wall Street Journal may have gotten the impression that RealClimate is in some way affiliated with an environmental organisation. We wish to stress that although our domain is being hosted by Environmental Media Services, and our initial press release was organised for us by Fenton Communications, neither organization was in any way involved in the initial planning for RealClimate, and have never had any editorial or other control over content. Neither Fenton nor EMS has ever paid any contributor to RealClimate.org any money for any purpose at any time. Neither do they pay us expenses, buy our lunch or contract us to do research. All of these facts have always been made clear to everyone who asked (see for instance: sciencemag.org/content/vol306/issue5705/netwatch.shtml).
Now, if only Exxon and Koch Industries, etc, would totally dry up all funds to denialists spokepersons, we might just be able to get back to real climate science, and on with solving the problem, instead hordes of scared people sticking their heads in the sand of obfuscation provided by these corps, blocking the way.

As the Papau New Guinea man said at the Bali climate meeting to the U.S. Delagate (who had come to block any action to solve the problem of AGW) – “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.”

I used to work for Exxon. There are some dishonest folks there as there are in any organization. A couple of them even set me up to be the fall guy on an issue and got me essentially fired.
HOWEVER, by and large, Exxon and other highly technical energy producting organizations have some of the brightest engineers, technicians and scientists in the world. This is indeed “rocket science”. Most employees are the kind of people that are smart, well educated, trained, principled and who work very hard, contributing to jobs and our standard of living. Your implication that Exxon and others are intentionally putting money into spreading lies for their own benefit is unfair and flat wrong. If you hate Exxon and Koch so much, then quit using all forms of energy except the sun that comes down in your back yard and the wind that blows your clothing dry. Otherwise YOU are the hypocrite, not the companies that form the backbone of our economy and civilization. You are behaving like an antihunter who buys his beef in a cellophane wrapper at the grocery store.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Well, I looked it up, and RC has this to say about EMS a couple of months after it started:
A disclaimer

Filed under: Climate Science In the News— eric @ 14 February 2005

Readers of the Feb. 14th, 2005 Wall Street Journal may have gotten the impression that RealClimate is in some way affiliated with an environmental organisation. We wish to stress that although our domain is being hosted by Environmental Media Services, and our initial press release was organised for us by Fenton Communications, neither organization was in any way involved in the initial planning for RealClimate, and have never had any editorial or other control over content. Neither Fenton nor EMS has ever paid any contributor to RealClimate.org any money for any purpose at any time. Neither do they pay us expenses, buy our lunch or contract us to do research. All of these facts have always been made clear to everyone who asked (see for instance: sciencemag.org/content/vol306/issue5705/netwatch.shtml).
Now, if only Exxon and Koch Industries, etc, would totally dry up all funds to denialists spokepersons, we might just be able to get back to real climate science, and on with solving the problem, instead hordes of scared people sticking their heads in the sand of obfuscation provided by these corps, blocking the way.

As the Papau New Guinea man said at the Bali climate meeting to the U.S. Delagate (who had come to block any action to solve the problem of AGW) – “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.”

By the way, how long ago was it that Papau New Guinea quit eating human flesh? But thanks for sharing their insight into this subject.

 

[kimmielittle]

Just goes to show that not all rich people are bad, some even have consciences. And to think I had thought they were ALL into destroying life on planet earth. Nevertheless, I still don’t trust rich guys (actually multinational frankencorps) to do the right thing, just because a few are good.

Looks like someone’s been stealing sociologist W.I Thomas’s famous theorum: “If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.”

Which means if lots of people define AGW as a hoax and fail to mitigate it, then we are in for a VERY ROUGH RIDE – or at least our progeny are.

Actually, you are again wrong…CAN you prove that a slight warming hurts plants or humankind?

Do you deny that over 174, 000 people DON’T DIE in the USA alone, every year… because of less frigged cold spells?

Wow, he understands the difference between avoiding the FALSE NEGATIVE on AGW of failing to mitigate a true problem,

Again, I ask you to prove Cap and Trade - Carbon Credits - population control “Mitigates” 1 degree.

and the really great benefits of the FALSE POSITIVE – mitigating AGW when it isn’t happening, which would be terrific for the economy and for reducing a plethora of many other environmental and non-environmental problems. THE BEST OF ALL WORLD scenario. And I had thought I was the only one who understood it. I do, however, take credit for coming to realize it first.

You have no evidence of this FALSE or Positive…IF so present your evidence.

Just wish more than Wirth and myself understood it. It’s not complicated or difficult. Really. It is the prudent, Christian thing to do, mitigate AGW whether it is happening or not. And reap all the health and wealth rewards if it is not happening, and avoid a ltotal iving hell if it is happening.

Show me one thing Christian about Shifting Money - power that you aren’t entitled to…

AS a fact, show me one way any of these schemes even addresses anything environmental - They don’t even apply to the environment - they are economy / power shifts ONLY

 

[kimmielittle]

God bless EMS, God bless them. Aren’t they just wonderful.

Oh, Yes., Tides Foundation of Mr Soros is VERY Christian

 

[kimmielittle]

This is what it says on RealClimates page about their host.

RealClimate is not affiliated with any environmental organisations. Although our domain is hosted by Science Communications Network (and previously Environmental Media Services), and our initial press release was organised for us by Fenton Communications, neither organization was in any way involved in the initial planning for RealClimate, and have never had any editorial or other control over content. Neither Fenton nor SCN nor EMS has ever paid any contributor to RealClimate.org any money for any purpose at any time. Neither do they pay us expenses, buy our lunch or contract us to do research. This information has always been made clear to anyone who asked.

Being hosted by one of these companies is not the same as being funded by them.

ABSOLUTELY

I admit, I baited you all.

The Question is:
Why would they even associate with Tides Foundation …Mr Soros?.

Surely, they had enough money of their own to host a web page.
No one forced them to associate with this group.
BUT that is the first group they ran to.

 

[kimmielittle]

Well, I looked it up, and RC has this to say about EMS a couple of months after it started:A disclaimer

Filed under: Climate Science In the News— eric @ 14 February 2005

Readers of the Feb. 14th, 2005 Wall Street Journal may have gotten the impression that RealClimate is in some way affiliated with an environmental organisation. We wish to stress that although our domain is being hosted by Environmental Media Services, and our initial press release was organised for us by Fenton Communications, neither organization was in any way involved in the initial planning for RealClimate, and have never had any editorial or other control over content. Neither Fenton nor EMS has ever paid any contributor to RealClimate.org any money for any purpose at any time. Neither do they pay us expenses, buy our lunch or contract us to do research. All of these facts have always been made clear to everyone who asked (see for instance: sciencemag.org/content/vol306/issue5705/netwatch.shtml).Now, if only Exxon and Koch Industries, etc, would totally dry up all funds to denialists spokepersons, we might just be able to get back to real climate science, and on with solving the problem, instead hordes of scared people sticking their heads in the sand of obfuscation provided by these corps, blocking the way.

Ahhhh…The two evil companies tactic

Actually Exxon hasn’t funded any group in quite awhile…BUT in case you missed my post British Petroleum, Shell Oil, Sultanate of Oman,…Ohhh just count em…just with CRU

Let’s look at just part of the funders of CRU - You know, the folks that feed this AGW hypothesis.

 Quote:
                This list is not fully exhaustive, but we would like to acknowledge the support of the following funders (in alphabetical order):

British Council,
British Petroleum,
Broom’s Barn Sugar Beet Research Centre,
Central Electricity Generating Board,
Centre for Environment,
Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS),
Commercial Union,
Commission of European Communities (CEC, often referred to now as EU),
Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCLRC),
Department of Energy,
Department of the Environment (DETR, now DEFRA),
Department of Health, Department of Trade and Industry (DTI),
Eastern Electricity,
Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC),
Environment Agency,
Forestry Commission,
Greenpeace International,
International Institute of Environmental Development (IIED),
Irish Electricity Supply Board,
KFA Germany,
Leverhulme Trust,
Ministry of Agriculture,
Fisheries and Food (MAFF),
National Power,
National Rivers Authority,
Natural Environmental Research Council (NERC),
Norwich Union,
Nuclear Installations Inspectorate,
Overseas Development Administration (ODA),
Reinsurance Underwriters and Syndicates,
Royal Society,
Scientific Consultants,
Science and Engineering Research Council (SERC),
Scottish and Northern Ireland Forum for Environmental Research,
Shell,
Stockholm Environment Agency,
Sultanate of Oman,
Tate and Lyle,
UK Met. Office,
UK Nirex Ltd.,
United Nations Environment Plan (UNEP),
United States Department of Energy,
United States Environmental Protection Agency,
Wolfson Foundation and the
World Wildlife Fund for Nature (WWF).
cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/about/history/

Just by shear numbers, …this tactic is thrown out.

You need a new song to sing, especially to me. The one you are singing is off pitch.

 

[kimmielittle]

kimmielittle…thanks for carrying the torch for those of us with common sense, scientific inquiring minds, and a sense of priority.
You do know you are wasting your time though. People devoid of the ability to logically examine data, and thus who are ruled by emotion, cannot change their mind based on facts and data. Instead they are uncommonly accepting of the most ostentatious charlatans. Note to moderator…I’m not saying that applies to anyone in particular on this forum…just my observation from arguing various issues with people who depend more on their feelings and prediction of calamity, than they do proper cause and effect analysis.
I suspect they have worse things to say about me and have said it.

Nothing disturbs anxiety more than facts.

You can call me kimmie, if you wish

 

[kimmielittle]

OH OH…I questioned the Sacred Cow of AGW - and have been punished - Two stars removed from this thread …VERY Christan like …VERY Charitable

If you can’t provide proof…attack the thread rating

 

[sedonaman]

… Why aren’t more Christian leaders committed to climate change, when the science so clearly points out that it is real and the planet’s fate depends on the climate?..

Does it? Who gets the big bucks depends on the answer. Consider

… by taxing the use of carbon fuels and subsidizing “alternative energy,” our ruling class created arguably the world’s biggest opportunity for making money out of things that few if any would buy absent its intervention. The ethanol industry and its ensuing diversions of wealth exist exclusively because of subsidies. The prospect of legislation that would put a price on carbon emissions and allot certain amounts to certain companies set off a feeding frenzy among large companies to show support for a “green agenda,” because such allotments would be worth tens of billions of dollars. That is why companies hired some 2,500 lobbyists in 2009 to deepen their involvement in “climate change.” At the very least, such involvement profits them by making them into privileged collectors of carbon taxes. Any “green jobs” thus created are by definition creatures of subsidies – that is, of privilege. What effect creating such privileges may have on “global warming” is debatable. But it surely increases the number of people dependent on the ruling class, and teaches Americans that satisfying that class is a surer way of making a living than producing goods and services that people want to buy. …

While the unenlightened ones believe that man is created in the image and likeness of God and that we are subject to His and to His nature’s laws, the enlightened ones know that we are products of evolution, driven by chance, the environment, and the will to primacy. While the un-enlightened are stuck with the antiquated notion that ordinary human minds can reach objective judgments about good and evil, better and worse through reason, the enlightened ones know that all such judgments are subjective and that ordinary people can no more be trusted with reason than they can with guns. Because ordinary people will pervert reason with ideology, religion, or interest, science is “science” only in the “right” hands. Consensus among the right people is the only standard of truth. Facts and logic matter only insofar as proper authority acknowledges them.

That is why the ruling class is united and adamant about nothing so much as its right to pronounce definitive, “scientific” judgment on whatever it chooses. When the government declares, and its associated press echoes that “scientists say” this or that, ordinary people – or for that matter scientists who “don’t say,” or are not part of the ruling class – **lose any right to see the information that went into what “scientists say.” **Thus when Virginia’s attorney general subpoenaed the data by which Professor Michael Mann had concluded, while paid by the state of Virginia, that the earth’s temperatures are rising “like a hockey stick” from millennial stability – a conclusion on which billions of dollars’ worth of decisions were made – to investigate the possibility of fraud, the University of Virginia’s faculty senate condemned any inquiry into “scientific endeavor that has satisfied peer review standards” claiming that demands for data “send a chilling message to scientists … and indeed scholars in any discipline.” The Washington Post editorialized that the attorney general’s demands for data amounted to “an assault on reason.” The fact that the “hockey stick” conclusion stands discredited and Mann and associates are on record manipulating peer review, the fact that science-by-secret-data is an oxymoron, the very distinction between truth and error, all matter far less to the ruling class than the distinction between itself and those they rule.

By identifying science and reason with themselves, our rulers de-legitimize opposition. Though they cannot prevent Americans from worshiping God, they can make it as socially disabling as smoking – to be done furtively and with a bad social conscience. Though they cannot make Americans wish they were Europeans, they continue to press upon this nation of refugees from the rest of the world the notion that Americans ought to live by “world standards.” Each day, the ruling class produces new “studies” that show that one or another of Americans’ habits is in need of reform, and that those Americans most resistant to reform are pitiably, perhaps criminally, wrong. Thus does it go about disaggregating and dispiriting the ruled. …[emphasis in red added] “America’s Ruling Class” spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the

“Green” is an appropriate term for these initiatives because it is really the color of the money, not the leaves.

 

[lynnvinc]

Contrary to popular belief…most labeled as “denialist” “skeptics”…ARE active in conservation projects. I guess the saying here, is a good one, " Know thy enemy"

Bless you, KimmieLittle. That’s wonderful you’re into conservation projects. A group of us started a conversation campaign up north, with our 1st project water conservation.

It started in the little environmental committee we had in our parish. We’d done various topics, such as safer pesticide use, wetlands, and eating low on the food chain, so I proposed we do our next topic on global warming. That was in 2000. A new member, with an MA in Geology (speciality in hydrology & working for Waste Management), insisted AGW had not yet been proven. We got into what she fondly refers to as our “hissy fight” over it. Then I finally said, well the same measures that mitigate AGW also mitigate other environmental problems, so let’s focus on solutions. For instance conservation of water, which requires energy to pump and heat it.

She then became my best buddy and we came up with our April topic – “April Showers” about water conservation, and put on a big event in the church.

Soon after we brainstormed and started the Aurora (IL) Conservation Campaign. We got a $5000 seed grant from the city, and purchased water-saving items at near wholesale price and created a kit with a pamphlet, that was handed out thru the Water Dept (asking for a $10 donation to cover cost and recoup for our next conservation campaign).

Come to find out, the water table in our city wells had gone down 800 feet in the 100 years of their use, and were in serious jeopardy. Who knew? Except my friend talked to the Water Dept head and he told her.

So, you’re doing very good just to be into conservation issues. You’re great!

 

[lynnvinc]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

I used to work for Exxon. There are some dishonest folks there as there are in any organization. A couple of them even set me up to be the fall guy on an issue and got me essentially fired.
HOWEVER, by and large, Exxon and other highly technical energy producting organizations have some of the brightest engineers, technicians and scientists in the world. This is indeed “rocket science”. Most employees are the kind of people that are smart, well educated, trained, principled and who work very hard, contributing to jobs and our standard of living. Your implication that Exxon and others are intentionally putting money into spreading lies for their own benefit is unfair and flat wrong.

You can look up their tax forms and see which orgs they contribute to. It’s public info. For one, they have been funding the Acton Institute, whose speakers are featured on EWTN, and are heavily into AGW denial, and into constructing environmentalists as neopagan-pantheist-anti-human-atheists – but I’ve never met any environmentalist meeting any of those descriptions, well maybe some atheist environmentalist (I am in academia, afterall). But as far as the 3 neopagans students I’ve know over the past 30 years, I can say they didn’t strike me as being environmentalists – at least not in my books. I was a little afraid, tho, that the 1st one I met might put a hex on me; she was really angry re how I taught about witchcraft from the anthro text.

To the Acton folks, headed by Fr. Sirico, those are the real threats, not environmental problems which they think are just in the imagination.

I don’t doubt Exxon workers are brilliant, and I’ve even seen Exxon ads on TV about how they are striving to mitigate AGW – and they are (bec it pays for them to be energy/resource efficient/conservative – they are not dumb bunnies ). So it’s sort of schizophrenic that they are also into the denialist industry. Tho I haven’t seen their recent tax returns, so maybe they’ve pulled out.

If you hate Exxon and Koch so much, then quit using all forms of energy except the sun that comes down in your back yard and the wind that blows your clothing dry. Otherwise YOU are the hypocrite, not the companies that form the backbone of our economy and civilization. You are behaving like an antihunter who buys his beef in a cellophane wrapper at the grocery store.

I’d sort of like to get a Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf when they come out next year, then plug into our 100% wind-generated electricity from GreenMountain, and do 99% of our driving on the wind (if I can convince hubby, which I don’t think I can).

We have, however, lived within a couple of miles from work for over 30 years, since the 70s oil crunch and my awareness of peak oil & finite resources. And we’re doing what we can to grow at least some of our own veggies & fruits. I realize the heavy amount of fossil-fuel based energy that goes into each and every product.

All I’d hope for is that people would do those things that are feasible and cost-effective for them, even if they don’t quite accept AGW or other enviro problems.