Catholicism And Doctrinal Changes

[PetersKeys]

Okay, I have a question about doctrine/dogma and whether it can change or be modified.

It is my understanding that your church teaches that dogma can’t actually change but can be modified. I don’t fully understand this.

The case I am thinking of is the “outside the church there is no salvation” teaching which I believe is considered to be dogmatic by your church.

I’m no expert on your faith so bare with me here but I understand the Church of a century or two ago had a very narrow understanding of this and believed that me or anyone else formally outside of your Church would be doomed.

Now, it is also my understanding that a pope (don’t know who or when) came along and said something to the effect that those who are “invincibly ignorant” could be saved. I also believe your latest church documents refer to non-Catholic Christians as “serperated bretheren”.

So, we have on the one hand the Catholic Church teaching a very narrow interpretation of the doctrine in the past and now adopting a more mild interpretation of this now.

One could argue that the Church changed its teaching. One could also argue that the Church just applies a teaching from the past differently due to the fact that the world of Christianity is much more complicated since the Reformation.

I would appreciate your comments as to whether or not you see this as a change or not a change and why.

Just so we are clear, I am not attacking or bashing but only asking.

It isn’t modified, in fact our current Pope Benedict just confirmed it not too long ago when he said protestant churches weren’t really “churches” because they had no valid priest…

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I have a question. Can some of you suggest to me sources I can read, to read about how the Catholic Church pondered the interpretation of their “no salvation outside of the Church” teaching, in light of the discoveries of the New World?

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that’s what the Catholic Church teaches. The “works of law” are the Old Testament ceremonial rites (like circumcision, dietary regulations, animal sacrifices, etc.) that had no power to save. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Covenant and has nothing to do with the Old Covenant law. It is the means through which God gives the grace of regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We see this sacramental principle at work throughout Jesus’ ministry, where He heals through physical matter (saliva, touch, His garment) – Mark 7:33, 6:56, 6:13, 8:23 when He could have simply spoken a word and brought about the same effect (which He did do sometimes). We see this in the ministry of the Apostles as well – Acts 5:15 and 19:12. Why would God give something spiritual (grace) through physical means? Because of the Incarnation – God became man and joined a physical, human nature to His spiritual nature, and we are spiritual and physical beings, so God mercifully gives us His grace in ways we can recognize and experience through our physical senses. We are not disembodied spirits or angels.

Jesus’ Church is His Body --it is a visible, physical entity just like a regular human body. And just as grace flowed through Jesus’ physical body during His earthly ministry, so does grace flow through His mystical Body (from Christ, who is Head), the Church, for the salvation and healing of souls and bodies. You are holding an either/or position – Christ or the Church, rather than both/and – Christ AND the Church – both are joined together – you cannot separate them into a “me and Jesus” thing.

In Matthew 9:35, Jesus went through villages “healing every disease and sickness.” Then in Matthew 10:1, Jesus calls His disciples and “gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness” – He sent them to do the very same things He was doing in His earthly ministry. Later on in verse 40, Jesus says, “He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.” This is also in Luke 10:16, “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” In Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 Jesus gives the apostles governing and teaching authority, and in John 20:23 He gives them the authority to forgive and retain sins and Matthew 28:19 He gives them the authority to baptize and preach, “teaching them to obey *everything I have commanded you.” *Jesus is leaving earth, and He must leave behind others to continue His ministry on earth, vested with His authority and power.

To Timothy Paul wrote, "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. " (1 Tim. 4:16) and Hebrews 13:17 says, “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account.” Does it sound like Jesus and Paul are talking about a “me and Jesus only” faith?

“If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:15. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth because Jesus promised to lead the Church into “all truth” (John 16:13) with the gift of infallibility (Matthew 16:19). If you believe in submitting to the Bible because it is true, why would it be wrong to submit to the Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth?” In submitting to the Bible, you are actually submitting to Christ, who’s Word it is, and in submitting to the Church, we are submitting to Christ who’s Body she is.

This is a beautiful post. Wonderful explanations and reasoning. Thank-you so much for offering me this way of looking at things .

 

[Mach1Man]

And besides, the doctiine has not changed. “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” remains true. All those who are saved, whether they are Protestants, Jews, Muslims, atheists, or pagans (or anything I may have missed), are saved through the Catholic Church

. We don’t know how; it’s a mystery. But that is the way it is.

Hi
This is where we have a huge disagreement. We are saved through Christs sacrifice and NOT the Catholic church nor any church for that matter. The one thing that bothers me most is the arrogance of the Catholic church. I have read numerous posts from Catholics stating that the Bible is the Catholic Church’s or without the RCC there would be no Scriptures, or you are the only ones who have the fullness of truth, or the only way that I can get to Heaven is because on my own ignorance, or the RCC can do this or that. The Bible says “He who believes and is Baptized will be saved” not "He who believes and joins the Catholic church.

 

[buffalo]

Hi
This is where we have a huge disagreement. We are saved through Christs sacrifice and NOT the Catholic church nor any church for that matter. The one thing that bothers me most is the arrogance of the Catholic church. I have read numerous posts from Catholics stating that the Bible is the Catholic Church’s or without the RCC there would be no Scriptures, or you are the only ones who have the fullness of truth, or the only way that I can get to Heaven is because on my own ignorance, or the RCC can do this or that. The Bible says “He who believes and is Baptized will be saved” not "He who believes and joins the Catholic church.

What year did your denomination begin and who was its founder?

 

[Tomster]

Hi
This is where we have a huge disagreement. We are saved through Christs sacrifice and NOT the Catholic church nor any church for that matter. The one thing that bothers me most is the arrogance of the Catholic church. I have read numerous posts from Catholics stating that the Bible is the Catholic Church’s or without the RCC there would be no Scriptures, or you are the only ones who have the fullness of truth, or the only way that I can get to Heaven is because on my own ignorance, or the RCC can do this or that. The Bible says “He who believes and is Baptized will be saved” not "He who believes and joins the Catholic church.

One of the titles of the Church is “the Bride of Christ.” Indeed no institution was ever so closely joined to one man as the Church is with her Founder. Like Christ, she is both human and divine. She is intolerant and dogmatic where He was intolerant and dogmatic. Like Him, she has the universal mission to teach all men and guide them to their eternal destiny.

Budda and Confucius had disciples; Christ alone called men to follow Him. Even so, the Church calls on all men to obey His word. The very word “Church” from the Greek noun ekklesia, is derived from the verb kalein, meaning “to call.” The men whom the Master called went by the name of Apostles, which means “the sent,” “the commissioned.” They formed a privileged group, a little society to themselves, whom Jesus trained, not for their benefit only, but that they might be teachers of others. They were the seed of the Church.

When Christ warned this group about the obligation of correcting the brethren He told it: “If he [the erring one] refuse to hear them, appeal to the Church, but if he refuse to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Here is the first mention of the word “Church” in the New Testament, a word that in Greek means “an assembly” and in the Old Testament was applied to the entire people of God. The Master intended the Church to be the new Israel, whose authority was to endure forever.

The God-Man was crucified and rose from the dead. His parting words as recorded at the end of the Gospel of Matthew are these: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days even unto the consummation of the world.”

With the power Christ claimed in heaven and on earth, as the Son of God and as the Messiah sent by God, He sent them to evangelize the world. He had given them power to govern; He now gave them the mission to teach. Through the preaching of the Word, and its acceptance by the nations, the Kingdom of God was to be established, developed, and perpetuated. The jurisdiction of the Apostles was limited to making God’s reign in men’s hearts, but within those limits it was supreme.

The spiritual power the Apostles had extended to loosing or binding the most intimate bonds of man, those in which the soul is directly related to God - I mean the bonds of conscience. “Whose sins you shall forgive,” Jesus told the Apostles, “they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

In these words of this commission the distinctive marks of the Church already stand out: Man’s relations with God are not left to the individual, but are under the control of authority. This authority was established by the will of God, and those who hold it are not all men, but only a few, namely the Apostles. And, since the Apostles would not live forever, this authority was to descend to successors.

This authority, within its own sphere, has no limits and is guaranteed against error or abuse by divine power. It is independent of the will of men. The successors of the Apostles in this divinely given authority are the Bishops.

But this Kingdom of God was to be not only a hierarchical society, ruled by Bishops, but also a monarchical society, with a head that was to rule both Bishops and people. He was called Peter and in Aramaic Kepha, “rock.”

 

[Mach1Man]

What year did your denomination begin and who was its founder?

Hi Buffalo
I am a Christian, which dates back to the time Christ walked this earth. I’m sure you will remember Antioch is where we were called that.
This also means that Christ is the founder. I think that our differences come from what we understand the church to be.

 

[buffalo]

Hi Buffalo
I am a Christian, which dates back to the time Christ walked this earth. I’m sure you will remember Antioch is where we were called that.
This also means that Christ is the founder. I think that our differences come from what we understand the church to be.

What is your groups tradition? Baptist, Lutheran? etc…