Catholicism and Fundamentalism, 30 years later

[Peter_J]

Chick is fading into an historical anomaly and will one day be forgotten except by fans of that kind of comic style.

I see it a little differently: I agree that Chick et al are fading away, but I think memory of them will endure as the image of what it means to be hardcore Fundamentalist.

To quote Keating again, “The public is always willing to accept someone or some organization that appeals to its unrespectable prejudices if it can, at the same time, reject propagandists at the fringe.” I think that’s true even if “the fringe” is just a memory.

The thing I see is that the Fundamentalist did their job too well. People now not only doubt the claims of the Church–they doubt the claims of all religion because of the false claims and the silliness lobbed at other, fellow Christians. Jesus said, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” There’s been very little love shown, hence people have some legitimacy in claiming that religion doesn’t solve man’s tendency towards hate and even violence. They called for the wind and have reaped the wild wind, which is sweeping away all faith from men’s hearts. That’s what’s happened.

Very good point.

 

[commenter]

In many ways non denominationalism is the successor to fundamentalism. I wish Karl would write a book about it.
The few real fundamentalists still around are mostly wrong, in my opinion. The pope is not the Antichrist, etc, etc, and more etc. But the fundamentalists are **right **on some things: doctrine is important.

The non denominationalists are more subtle. They don’t denounce anyone’s doctrine. They just focus on other things. They have weight loss classes, Christian aerobics, lots of social supports, that Catholic parishes often miss nowadays. Catholics who got the cotton-candy catechetics in religious education often join these churches. “Dogma lite” is *normal *for these people.

The problem is that there is no real altar, just a stage. The preacher presents an encouraging message: family is important; spend time with a friend; be a good listener; tough times never last but strong Christians do; be a good worker; make sure you take time for recreation; etc, etc, and more etc. But hardly any dogmatic content. This is nice advice for anybody, but little that is specific to Christians.

The fundamentalist is strong, though moving in the wrong direction. If he can be converted, he will be even stronger in the right direction. But non denominationalists? Have a nice day? I’m ok, you’re ok? This is “salvation”.

 

[GEddie]

Around the time that book was in print, the “Gospelgate” scandals struck, involving several of the heavy names (ie, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton) in American hard-core fundamentalism (1900s fundamentalism was to a great extent a U.S.–Southern phenomenon).

The fundamentalist movement in its broadcast iterations never fully recovered, and has toned down its message to an extent, including most of the anti Catholicism. The increasing Hispanization of the country since then has made that position less lucrative, in any case.

Even Chick Publications, since the passing of Jack Chick, has eased up on anti-Catholic writing, though much of the old stuff remains in print.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Peter_J]

And also a few (like my wife who really does not like me being on here) who grew up very Conservative Catholic and also have her opinions. I constantly need to remind her that doesn’t mean she has all the answers (from the other side) just because she has “been there”!

Yeah, if someone told me “Catholicism is wrong. You can believe me because I used to be Catholic myself” I’d be like Ummm …

(Though it can be a great way of “convincing someone who is already convinced”. )

 

[Wannano]

Yeah, if someone told me “Catholicism is wrong. You can believe me because I used to be Catholic myself” I’d be like Ummm …

(Though it can be a great way of “convincing someone who is already convinced”. )

I am sure I am inviting a good spanking but I certainly notice a lot of Catholics saying exactly that about their former Protestant experience. My response is usually …Ummm…

 

[ToeInTheWater]

While Fundamentalism as an organized force that influences public policy (or at least tries to) has declined…there are still “Independent Baptists” around who essentially are Fundamentalists. And while many “non-denominational” evangelical churches are pretty “dogma lite”, many who identify as “non-denominational” or “just Christian” actually have a personal approach to theology that is very Fundamentalist. And many are still anti-Catholic.

Many popular movements in Fundamentalism no longer depend on a single charismatic preacher (who too often has feet of clay). I can think of many such as the “courtship” movement that gained popularity mostly due to single published book by Joshua Harris, “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, who was a “youth minister” at the time but not actually ordained to any position.

The “ATI” or “Gothardite” movement, whose most public faces are the Duggars and Bates, is still chugging along even though the founder Bill Gothard has been accused of sexual abuse. Yet Gothard is also not an ordained minister of any church.

I have noticed many Catholics here sing the praises of the Duggars and quick to defend them against “hateful anti-Christian attacks” and I find this quite ironic, as the Duggars themselves are very anti-Catholic.

Now, I think Jim Bob himself is savvy enough to downplay this aspect of their beliefs in public, I’m sure he knows many Catholics watch their show. But 2 of his S-I-Ls so far, Ben Seewald and Jeremy Vuolo, have made very anti-Catholic comments. Since Jim Bob literally makes any man who wants to court one of his daughters fill out a 50 item questionnaire, I seriously doubt he would approve any suitor who has wildly divergent views from his own.

And while the Dillards did at one point deny being anti-Catholic on their own website, they work with a missionary group, SOS Ministries, that sends many of their missionaries into Catholic countries. The other Duggars have also spent time on mission trips sponsoted by this organization. And SOS stands for “Sufficiency of Scripture” - in other words Sola Scriptura. Definitely not a Catholic friendly organization.

So while yes, the threat of Fundamentalism both in general and to Catholics is much more muted than before, and the tendency is now more for fundies and Catholics to ally together on “core Judeo-Christian values” such as pro-life, pro-traditional family, etc… I’d caution Catholics to NOT assume that fundamentalist anti-Catholicism has totally disappeared.

Indeed, there are indeed many stories on CAF of posters raised in fundamentalist households, who had a very hard time converting, and some who even continue to be “closeted” regarding their conversion, or even interest. I’m sure this sounds hard to believe to most reading this, but some would take the news “BTW I am Catholic now” as badly as “BTW I am gay and in a civil same sex marriage now”. For many fundamentalists would see “being Catholic” and “being gay”, both as states that guarantee a ticket to Hell.

 

[commenter]

So while yes, the threat of Fundamentalism both in general and to Catholics is much more muted than before, and the tendency is now more for fundies and Catholics to ally together on “core Judeo-Christian values” such as pro-life, pro-traditional family, etc… I’d caution Catholics to NOT assume that fundamentalist anti-Catholicism has totally disappeared.

OK, but the days when fundamentalists controlled *many *radio stations, *many *colleges and large Baptist conventions are over. It is a force, but not a powerful force, among Baptists and Pentecostals, for instance. I know, the current media will label anyone who is prolife or against SSM as fundamentalist, but that reflects the media, not real fundamentalism, which is steadily shrinking.

A Baptist congregation across town went from fundamentalist one decade, to evangelical next decade, then the following decade pro choice and pro SSM.

You are right, the genuine, traditional anti Catholic fundamentalists have not totally disappeared. They will always be with us. But most people labelled fundamentalists now really are not. Pope Benedict was labelled a fundamentalist, for instance, along with the whole prolife movement.

 

[GEddie]

. I’d caution Catholics to NOT assume that fundamentalist anti-Catholicism has totally disappeared.

I certainly don’t, nor do I believe that that was said, either.

But it has certainly receded from its late-1900s heyday, or when the Keating book was released.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I certainly don’t, nor do I believe that that was said, either.

But it has certainly receded from its late-1900s heyday, or when the Keating book was released.

ICXC NIKA

Certainly fundamentalism is not the threat to Catholic faith that it was in the 1990s.

The other issue is that many Catholics have actually adopted a quasi-Fundamentalist mindset themselves and embrace, for example, Young Earth creationism. Or a very strict view of “wifely submission” and dismiss the “mutual submission” discussed by JPII as “modernist”. They have a very Bible-centric approach to the faith, though this is not necessarily wrong. I have noticed that for some reason, many also identify as Traditionalist.

I also think there is much regional variation involved in terms of how much of a problem this is. Though the Church now appears to be growing in traditionally “Bible Belt” states such as North Carolina. Meanwhile, many Catholic churches in the Northeast are consolidating.

 

[MichaelP3]

Yeah, if someone told me “Catholicism is wrong. You can believe me because I used to be Catholic myself” I’d be like Ummm …

(Though it can be a great way of “convincing someone who is already convinced”. )

Yup. Just proclaiming your previous faith doesn’t do much for me ( In fact I kinda think somewhat different then you might expect). And many times I get that Uhmmmm feeling when conversing.

My wife used to be very Catholic but I am sure her opinions are all of a sudden worthless here. True story, would any "Catholic ’ consider her opinions now of any relevance? Probably not!

That proves a point!

 

[Della]

I am sure I am inviting a good spanking but I certainly notice a lot of Catholics saying exactly that about their former Protestant experience. My response is usually …Ummm…

Not as much as former Catholics–I know from experience on both sides of the fence. And not from people who were mainline Christians becoming Catholic as much as from those who were Fundamentalists of the hardcore kind. Indeed, Catholics who are received into the Church are encouraged to draw on all the good they received in their Protestant denominations. While most former Catholics, when I was in the AoG at any rate, were encouraged by their new faith communities to forget their Catholic heritage completely: “now that they are Christians.” Some of that attitude has changed, thanks be, but it’s still out there.

 

[Peter_J]

I am sure I am inviting a good spanking but I certainly notice a lot of Catholics saying exactly that about their former Protestant experience. My response is usually …Ummm…

Interesting, interesting. It’s almost like there are similarities between the ways Catholics act and the ways Protestants act.

 

[commenter]

Yup. Just proclaiming your previous faith doesn’t do much for me ( In fact I kinda think somewhat different then you might expect). And many times I get that Uhmmmm feeling when conversing.

My wife used to be very Catholic but I am sure her opinions are all of a sudden worthless here. True story, would any "Catholic ’ consider her opinions now of any relevance? Probably not!

That proves a point!

I know many persons raised Catholic, who have embraced Protestantism. Of course I value their opinions. The reasons why they left RC vary.

Some have what I consider solid and accurate views of Christian responsibility in the areas of abortion and sanctity of marriage. They support us and we support their efforts.
Others have very definite opinions of the urgency to evangelize, to call individuals to a decision for Christ. I agree.

Even people considered “very Catholic” often had faulty catechesis; or parents who constantly criticized the Church; or bad experiences with individuals in the Church; maybe a parent who was alcoholic; or many other reasons. Many Protestant congregations are addressing human needs that are not being addressed by local Catholic parishes. That does not mean their opinions are not valuable. Many have important ministries in their new congregations. I listen to their experiences, sometimes learn things.

Sometimes Catholics, including me, present the Catholic faith in a way that is insensitive or judgmental. Other times Catholics come across as wishy washy, vague, “I’m ok, you’re ok.” Both groups cause people to go elsewhere. Their opinions still matter to me.

It may help to clarify things by distinguishing between “leaving the Catholic Faith”, and “Leaving the Catholic Church”. Those things get confused. Being “very Catholic” in the Faith, and “very Catholic” in the Church, are two different things.

 

[MichaelP3]

I know many persons raised Catholic, who have embraced Protestantism. Of course I value their opinions. The reasons why they left RC vary.

Some have what I consider solid and accurate views of Christian responsibility in the areas of abortion and sanctity of marriage. They support us and we support their efforts.
Others have very definite opinions of the urgency to evangelize, to call individuals to a decision for Christ. I agree.

Even people considered “very Catholic” often had faulty catechesis; or parents who constantly criticized the Church; or bad experiences with individuals in the Church; maybe a parent who was alcoholic; or many other reasons. Many Protestant congregations are addressing human needs that are not being addressed by local Catholic parishes. That does not mean their opinions are not valuable. Many have important ministries in their new congregations. I listen to their experiences, sometimes learn things.

Sometimes Catholics, including me, present the Catholic faith in a way that is insensitive or judgmental. Other times Catholics come across as wishy washy, vague, “I’m ok, you’re ok.” Both groups cause people to go elsewhere. Their opinions still matter to me.

It may help to clarify things by distinguishing between “leaving the Catholic Faith”, and “Leaving the Catholic Church”. Those things get confused. Being “very Catholic” in the Faith, and “very Catholic” in the Church, are two different things.

Thank you for that post!

Regards

 

[MichaelP3]

Interesting, interesting. It’s almost like there are similarities between the ways Catholics act and the ways Protestants act.

Indeed. I would say it is more of a quest that when the one side would realise it before the other!

 

[Wannano]

I know many persons raised Catholic, who have embraced Protestantism. Of course I value their opinions. The reasons why they left RC vary.

Some have what I consider solid and accurate views of Christian responsibility in the areas of abortion and sanctity of marriage. They support us and we support their efforts.
Others have very definite opinions of the urgency to evangelize, to call individuals to a decision for Christ. I agree.

Even people considered “very Catholic” often had faulty catechesis; or parents who constantly criticized the Church; or bad experiences with individuals in the Church; maybe a parent who was alcoholic; or many other reasons. Many Protestant congregations are addressing human needs that are not being addressed by local Catholic parishes. That does not mean their opinions are not valuable. Many have important ministries in their new congregations. I listen to their experiences, sometimes learn things.

Sometimes Catholics, including me, present the Catholic faith in a way that is insensitive or judgmental. Other times Catholics come across as wishy washy, vague, “I’m ok, you’re ok.” Both groups cause people to go elsewhere. Their opinions still matter to me.

It may help to clarify things by distinguishing between “leaving the Catholic Faith”, and “Leaving the Catholic Church”. Those things get confused. Being “very Catholic” in the Faith, and “very Catholic” in the Church, are two different things.

I would welcome more clarification concerning your last paragraph. My apologies if it has been explained elsewhere.

 

[Wannano]

Interesting, interesting. It’s almost like there are similarities between the ways Catholics act and the ways Protestants act.

Act, react, think and stink!

 

[commenter]

I would welcome more clarification concerning your last paragraph. My apologies if it has been explained elsewhere.

The Catholic Faith is a series of beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church is a specific institution to which people belong. Some people who accept most, or all, Catholic beliefs, and even may identify themselves as Catholic, are in other churches; for instance, the Continuum or LCMS. Some Eastern Orthodox identify themselves as Catholics.

G. K. Chesterton probably believed most or all Catholic belief for many years before he became Catholic, probably because his wife was Anglican, and not ready to swim the Tiber. (Both eventually did). I had a few friends who left the Catholic Church. About once a year. But when I would talk to them, they still hold most of the assumptions of Catholicism, perhaps without realizing it.

Many would go to Pentecostal church services half the time, and RC services half the time.

I have known others who have - mostly - left the Catholic Faith, but not the Church. They may hold employment in Catholic institutions. Or even if they are volunteers in some ministry, they may regard themselves as kind of missionaries - sort of using their position to get the Church to change its position, from the inside; often to support women’s ordination, Peace and Justice, etc.

This was a much bigger issue a few decades ago than now, as many of that generation have passed away. Young people who have radical or even very liberal mindset don’t even enter the convent or religious life today.

Again, it makes a difference whether Catholics leave the Catholic Faith (or Catholic Church) to go Protestant, or to go secular. Sometimes it is gradual, sometimes it can be some of both Protestant and secular. I knew a few who feel the “need” to worship somewhere on Sunday, even if they don’t particularly identify with the Protestant or Catholic church they happen to visit. There’s the music, the religious setting, some connection here with other people. Nothing to do with theology.

They may even bring their kids to Christmas at church, or even a little Sunday School as long as it is liberal and non specific, because “kids need something like religion growing up”. In his autobiography C. S. Lewis described his tutor who had left behind all vestiges of his Christian, Presbyterian upbringing, except that he always dressed a little formally on Sunday.

 

[GKC]

The Catholic Faith is a series of beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church is a specific institution to which people belong. Some people who accept most, or all, Catholic beliefs, and even may identify themselves as Catholic, are in other churches; for instance, the Continuum or LCMS. Some Eastern Orthodox identify themselves as Catholics.

G. K. Chesterton probably believed most or all Catholic belief for many years before he became Catholic, probably because his wife was Anglican, and not ready to swim the Tiber. (Both eventually did).

Chesterton had basically decided to become RC roughly by 1908, having, as you note, reached the point of Anglicanism, partially due to his wife Frances’ influence. For a number of reasons, he didn’t make the move until 1922, 4 years before Frances did.

Yes, as to Lewis’ tutor, William Kirkpatrick, “the Great Knock”, who did his gardening on Sunday, but “…in a different and slightly more respectable, suit. An Ulster Scot may come to disbelieve in God, but but not to wear his weekday clothes on the Sabbath”.

 

[DarkLight]

And also a few (like my wife who really does not like me being on here) who grew up very Conservative Catholic and also have her opinions. I constantly need to remind her that doesn’t mean she has all the answers (from the other side) just because she has “been there”!

Not that you said that, but just stating “you have seen the other side” doesn’t do much in the "discussion circle " we see so often. Many here think that!

Regards

I suppose it depends on what you’re looking at. All I’d take my experience to mean is that there are certainly such anti-Catholic groups out there, and the teaching in them can be what’s described.

I certainly wouldn’t take it as representative of mainline protestantism - I had some very good supports in my conversion to Catholicism in protestants of various stripes.