- Status
Parents also have the responsibility to screen material and to clarify their children’s doubts when necessary. And of course, tastes vary.
E
Elizium23
Guest
Wow… kudos to you for an excellent concept. You can be proud of this particular tattoo.
R
R_C
Guest
James Bond is not about blasphemy involving Saint Mary Magdalene or murderous Opus Dei monks, or portraying satanic rituals as something not just respectable but even sacred, and other symbolic nonsense propagating a profoundly anti-Christian message.
E
Elizium23
Guest
James Bond and the Da Vinci Code are similar in that they are real-life settings with (sort of) plausible premises and characters, and you leave the theatre thinking, “This could happen in real life, it’s realistic”, that is part of the excitement and suspense. That is indeed the very danger of DVC. The veneer of fiction permits Dan Brown to posit ridiculous things and get a credulous public to swallow them hook, line, and sinker.
By contrast, Harry Potter is written with unreal characters in unreal settings. Yes, it has geographical ties to the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe, but nobody is going to think that Hogwarts of Diagon Alley are real places, or that Voldemort could be taking over the world next Tuesday. The fabulous dimension of Harry Potter’s fantasy is what validates it for me. I feel no guilt in enjoying the witchcraft depicted therein. Just as magic is portrayed in LOTR and Narnia, we accept it as an integral part of the fantasy world, an “ontological reality” as a previous poster wrote. Harry Potter is children’s lit that is undeniably exciting even for adults, is well-written and the films are well-produced, and the underlying messages are powerful and positive. The “good” characters of HP set an example for children to learn from, and I think the notion that it will validate witchcraft or encourage children to become involved with the occult is overrated.
By contrast, Harry Potter is written with unreal characters in unreal settings. Yes, it has geographical ties to the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe, but nobody is going to think that Hogwarts of Diagon Alley are real places, or that Voldemort could be taking over the world next Tuesday. The fabulous dimension of Harry Potter’s fantasy is what validates it for me. I feel no guilt in enjoying the witchcraft depicted therein. Just as magic is portrayed in LOTR and Narnia, we accept it as an integral part of the fantasy world, an “ontological reality” as a previous poster wrote. Harry Potter is children’s lit that is undeniably exciting even for adults, is well-written and the films are well-produced, and the underlying messages are powerful and positive. The “good” characters of HP set an example for children to learn from, and I think the notion that it will validate witchcraft or encourage children to become involved with the occult is overrated.
K
Kelfa28
Guest
Hubby loves roast peanuts. One of his fav snack foods! 
I’m more of a Smartfood popcorn fan. That and carmel flavored…good stuff.
So, this thread may or may not take off. I’ll just sit back and watch…
I’m more of a Smartfood popcorn fan. That and carmel flavored…good stuff.
So, this thread may or may not take off. I’ll just sit back and watch…
K
Kamaduck
Guest
I think all of the anti-potter users are also tired of discussing it.Hubby loves roast peanuts. One of his fav snack foods!
I’m more of a Smartfood popcorn fan. That and carmel flavored…good stuff.
So, this thread may or may not take off. I’ll just sit back and watch…
D
Domnall
Guest
Thank you! It’s actually a great evangelization tool, because I can then share the scripture passage and explain how Jesus is the conquerer of sin and death.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear JDGaney,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
Many pious men are of the opinion that the Harry Potter series of books are an obvious example of culturally unhealthy reading material, especially for the young who are yet in a state of spiritual formation and do have the potential, at least, to arouse interest in the occultic subcultures. Needless to say, this is dismissed as risible by the pro-Potterites and their supporters, but given the global increase in occultic activity, that concern ought to merit a great deal more serious attention than it does. The usual response is to plead that the Potter tales are merely harmless fantasy fiction, even so its leading characters attend a school of witchcraft and sorcery, which practices in the real world are strictly forbidden by both Sacred Scripture and Holy Mother Church (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2117). It is just too close for comfort and why would Catholics who are in earnest about the pursuit of holiness want to read fiction that treats of a topic that in real life is “an abomination unto the Lord” (cf. Deut. 18; 9-13)? Moreover, such unwholesome and unworthy literature is hardly conducive to thinking upon those things that are true, pure and lovely (Philipp. 4: 8). Can we honestly contend that the Potter books are utterly free from any debasing elements and will not leave a blot upon the conscience and a stain upon the soul? However, this is not the only reason why many Catholics cannot approve of this inferior book series and there are other reasons why I think they must be given a negative appraisal.
In our morally degenerate age, dear friend, we do not have to look for offensive material that assaults our senses, for it is blatant, rampant and almost unavoidable. However, the impurities of this godless world do not always attack us via the most obvious channels. Not infrequently they come to us in much more subtle ways and the youth are especially vulnerable because often they genuinely cannot see the harm that more spiritually wise and informed adults can. Sometimes God-fearing Catholic parents can appear to be unduly prissy or ‘overscrupulous’ and so it is all too easy to dismiss their viewpoint as having no weight and just reactionary. Subtle evil is actually a great deal more harmful than blatant evil because it is jolly harder to recognize and thus harder to avoid. Most harmful of all is evil under the guise of good, for if we consider something to be good we do more than just not avoid it, we embrace it wholeheartedly.
Rowling’s Potter series falls, I believe, into this category - evil that has the appearance of being good and the very fact that it is a world-wide phenomena that many are embracing makes it look even better. If it is so bad, men will ask, then why is it so popular and why do good Catholic parents allow their children to read these unwholesome and inferior books? Why do some Catholic commentators sing its praises unreservedly? Can so many people be deceived so badly? A resounding yes, for history attests that there is such a thing as mass public deception - ask the German’s, they sadly know about all that sort of thing from bitter experience. Besides, young folk especially fall into the trap of thinking that if everyone else is reading such and such a book or watching such and such a film, then how can it be so culturally unhealthy and lead them away from the path of virtue. Alas, this is one of weakest ways of rationalising immorality and sin. The fact that some ‘conservative’ Catholic commentator says that the Potter books are perfectly acceptable reading for the young does not automatically mean that that is the case, it might just mean that the commentator is, on this particular issue, either uninformed or misinformed.
The devotees and supporters of Potter, dear friend, who praise Rowling’s books never tire of bringing up the same tribute, namely that the tales show the fight between good and evil. However, we are bound to ask, who is good and who is evil in these books? Look, when a character has as many vices as Harry Potter does, the word ‘good’ does not readily come to mind. The fight is not so much a fight between good and evil, but rather a fight between evil and not-quite-as-evil! The distinctions between good and evil are too blurred and when you consider that the primary target group of Rowling’s readers are children that is decidedly unhealthy and renders the books unsuitable from a Catholic standpoint.
It is true, dear friend, that the Potter books are frequently compared with Mr. Tolkein’s *Lord of the Rings *trilogly and Mr. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia, but the comparison is a superficial one designed to make Potter seem ‘Christian’ and less unwholesome. It is usually based upon the use of the word ‘magic’ and the fact that there is a witch and/or wizard in the story. What is conveniently overlooked is the important distinction as to how these characters perform their magic. In any case the term ‘magic’ can only be used if we understand that it is being used equivocally.
This is a jolly huge and very emotive topic, dear friend, and I have spoken about it at great length in other threads here on CAF. However, I would strongly recommend that you read and mark the definitive work by Michael O’ Brien: *Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture *(published by F&T, 2010). It is available from amazon.com and explodes all the usual pro-Potterite arguments and evinces just how weak and unsupportable they actually are. Read the book for yourself, rather than hostile and biased criticisms of it by Potter devotees and their supporters.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
Many pious men are of the opinion that the Harry Potter series of books are an obvious example of culturally unhealthy reading material, especially for the young who are yet in a state of spiritual formation and do have the potential, at least, to arouse interest in the occultic subcultures. Needless to say, this is dismissed as risible by the pro-Potterites and their supporters, but given the global increase in occultic activity, that concern ought to merit a great deal more serious attention than it does. The usual response is to plead that the Potter tales are merely harmless fantasy fiction, even so its leading characters attend a school of witchcraft and sorcery, which practices in the real world are strictly forbidden by both Sacred Scripture and Holy Mother Church (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2117). It is just too close for comfort and why would Catholics who are in earnest about the pursuit of holiness want to read fiction that treats of a topic that in real life is “an abomination unto the Lord” (cf. Deut. 18; 9-13)? Moreover, such unwholesome and unworthy literature is hardly conducive to thinking upon those things that are true, pure and lovely (Philipp. 4: 8). Can we honestly contend that the Potter books are utterly free from any debasing elements and will not leave a blot upon the conscience and a stain upon the soul? However, this is not the only reason why many Catholics cannot approve of this inferior book series and there are other reasons why I think they must be given a negative appraisal.
In our morally degenerate age, dear friend, we do not have to look for offensive material that assaults our senses, for it is blatant, rampant and almost unavoidable. However, the impurities of this godless world do not always attack us via the most obvious channels. Not infrequently they come to us in much more subtle ways and the youth are especially vulnerable because often they genuinely cannot see the harm that more spiritually wise and informed adults can. Sometimes God-fearing Catholic parents can appear to be unduly prissy or ‘overscrupulous’ and so it is all too easy to dismiss their viewpoint as having no weight and just reactionary. Subtle evil is actually a great deal more harmful than blatant evil because it is jolly harder to recognize and thus harder to avoid. Most harmful of all is evil under the guise of good, for if we consider something to be good we do more than just not avoid it, we embrace it wholeheartedly.
Rowling’s Potter series falls, I believe, into this category - evil that has the appearance of being good and the very fact that it is a world-wide phenomena that many are embracing makes it look even better. If it is so bad, men will ask, then why is it so popular and why do good Catholic parents allow their children to read these unwholesome and inferior books? Why do some Catholic commentators sing its praises unreservedly? Can so many people be deceived so badly? A resounding yes, for history attests that there is such a thing as mass public deception - ask the German’s, they sadly know about all that sort of thing from bitter experience. Besides, young folk especially fall into the trap of thinking that if everyone else is reading such and such a book or watching such and such a film, then how can it be so culturally unhealthy and lead them away from the path of virtue. Alas, this is one of weakest ways of rationalising immorality and sin. The fact that some ‘conservative’ Catholic commentator says that the Potter books are perfectly acceptable reading for the young does not automatically mean that that is the case, it might just mean that the commentator is, on this particular issue, either uninformed or misinformed.
The devotees and supporters of Potter, dear friend, who praise Rowling’s books never tire of bringing up the same tribute, namely that the tales show the fight between good and evil. However, we are bound to ask, who is good and who is evil in these books? Look, when a character has as many vices as Harry Potter does, the word ‘good’ does not readily come to mind. The fight is not so much a fight between good and evil, but rather a fight between evil and not-quite-as-evil! The distinctions between good and evil are too blurred and when you consider that the primary target group of Rowling’s readers are children that is decidedly unhealthy and renders the books unsuitable from a Catholic standpoint.
It is true, dear friend, that the Potter books are frequently compared with Mr. Tolkein’s *Lord of the Rings *trilogly and Mr. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia, but the comparison is a superficial one designed to make Potter seem ‘Christian’ and less unwholesome. It is usually based upon the use of the word ‘magic’ and the fact that there is a witch and/or wizard in the story. What is conveniently overlooked is the important distinction as to how these characters perform their magic. In any case the term ‘magic’ can only be used if we understand that it is being used equivocally.
This is a jolly huge and very emotive topic, dear friend, and I have spoken about it at great length in other threads here on CAF. However, I would strongly recommend that you read and mark the definitive work by Michael O’ Brien: *Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture *(published by F&T, 2010). It is available from amazon.com and explodes all the usual pro-Potterite arguments and evinces just how weak and unsupportable they actually are. Read the book for yourself, rather than hostile and biased criticisms of it by Potter devotees and their supporters.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
B
Baelor
Guest
And yet many are not.
A spiritual formation that can be controlled by the parents even while Harry Potter books are read.
Statistics that this rise exists, and then that this rise is due to Harry Potter?
If real-world magic were like Harry Potter magic, it would not be forbidden by the Catholic Church. Equating actual witchcraft with witchcraft in the Harry Potter franchise simply because the noun applied to both is a fallacious argument.
It does not treat a topic that in real life is “an abomination unto the Lord” because the Harry Potter franchise does not treat real-world witchcraft.
Yes, but they are not in this case.
Which must independently be demonstrated to be immoral and sinful; this has not been done in the case of Harry Potter.
Just as those, like yourself, saying that it is immoral and unwholesome may be uninformed or misinformed? Or do those terms apply only to those who disagree with you?
Have you even read the books which you are here condemning?
For example?
It is not being used equivocally.
Perhaps the poster would be better off reading the actual Harry Potter books rather than hostile and biased criticisms of them by Potter haters and their supporters?
R
Razanir
Guest
Portrait, let me introduce you to something called Clarke’s Third Law. It says that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. For instance, if I went back to Ancient Rome and the early Church and showed them a TV, they’d probably accuse me of witchcraft. Notably, the Early Church Fathers would probably have condemned it for being witchcraft. However, we know today that it’s just electricity.
I mention this because you seem to be acting like the Ancient Romans who would have thought TV is witchcraft. In the Harry Potter universe, “magic” is just another law of the universe, like electricity, and therefore morally neutral. But, because it’s called magic, you vehemently attack it. The moral of my story is that just because wizardry is called “magic” in HP, you assume it’s the exact same thing as the occult in the real world. But again, it’s just a fundamental part of their universe, as morally neutral as electricity in ours, the Force in Star Wars, or saidar and saidin in the Wheel of Time
I mention this because you seem to be acting like the Ancient Romans who would have thought TV is witchcraft. In the Harry Potter universe, “magic” is just another law of the universe, like electricity, and therefore morally neutral. But, because it’s called magic, you vehemently attack it. The moral of my story is that just because wizardry is called “magic” in HP, you assume it’s the exact same thing as the occult in the real world. But again, it’s just a fundamental part of their universe, as morally neutral as electricity in ours, the Force in Star Wars, or saidar and saidin in the Wheel of Time
P
Portrait
Guest
F.A.O. Baelor
Dear Baelor,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well with you.
It is quite true, dear brother, that many contemporary Catholics see nothing untoward with the Potter series and this I would not stop to deny. However, the issue is surely whether they are uninformed or misinformed in holding such a belief.
A moral obligation is laid upon parents to shield their children from culturally unhealthy reading material. Therefore, dear brother, it is unnecessary and irresponsible to expose our precious children to these deleterious and inferior books, especially during their formative years when their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn. Besides, is such a needless risk really worth taking, given that they are deluged enough already with offensive material that assaults their senses?
In his book, *An Exorcist Tells his Story *(Ignatius Press, 1999), Father Amorth warns that modern man is loosing his sense of the reality of supernatural evil. As a result, he says, many have made themselves more vulnerable to evil spirits who seek to corrupt and destroy souls. Moreover, Father does not hesitate to say that cultural influences such as film, television, music and books play no small part in lowering spiritual vigilance, “I was able personally to verify how great in the influence of these tools of Satan on the young. It is unbelievable how widespread are witchcraft and spiritism, in all their forms in middle and high school. This evil is everywhere, even in small towns” (pp. 53-54). As an exorcist of many years standing, his opinion respecting witchcraft and its evil being everywhere, ought at least to be taken very seriously by the faithful. Indeed, it is more compelling evidence than any statistics because it comes from a priest of the Church who is well acquainted with the reality of evil in the world, and the channels through which evil corrupts. Father Amorth with his vast experience could see that the Potter tales interface just too closely with the real world of witchcraft, which is why he denounced it the strongest terms: “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. Strong words indeed to speak about a supposedly harmless children’s book series - something about these books must have led him to utter such a grave statement.
Neither myself, nor any commentator who has written a thoughtful critique of the Potter tales has ever suggested that there is a formal religion of witchcraft in the novels. However, their are undoubted parallels to the real life counterpart which are worrisome and this can arouse an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures, especially given what Father Amorth has said (and that was in 1999). It is quite true that the books appear at first glance to disconnect witchcraft from the spiritual and present it as exciting ‘cool’ stuff and in no way spiritually dangerous. However, dear brother, herein lies the danger because it makes the Potter books potentially more corrupting by giving the child a false sense of what witchcraft is really all about.
What I would advise, dear brother, is for men to at least read the Catholic critiques of the Potter books with an open mind and then assess whether their argumentation is sound or sound and whether they are uninformed and misinformed. Moreover, the faithful ought to be made aware, if they are not already, that notable Catholic commentators such as Matthew Arnold, Steven Wood, John Henry Weston, Dr. Philip Ney, Patrick Madrid and Michael O’ Brien, have all provided, each in their respective apostolates, well-grounded criticisms of the Potter books/films. True, they do represent a minority position at the present time, but I firmly believe that the situation will one day change as men rethink what is actually being communicated through these “subtle seductions”. Have you ever read anything which these commentators have written respecting the Harry Potter book series?
That the word ‘magic’ is not being used equivocally is merely your opinion, but many, including myself, do not share that opinion, dear bother.
Those who feel compelled to write negative appraisals of the Potter series do not do so because they are “Potter haters”, but do so because they have genuine misgivings and concerns with the series and feel that it is a part of the ongoing paganization of our culture. The OP has nothing to loose by reading the Catholic critiques of the Potter books and he may even find that the argumentation against them is more cogent than he initially imagined, but he will not know one way or the other until he actually reads them.
God bless and goodbye for now.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
Dear Baelor,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well with you.
It is quite true, dear brother, that many contemporary Catholics see nothing untoward with the Potter series and this I would not stop to deny. However, the issue is surely whether they are uninformed or misinformed in holding such a belief.
A moral obligation is laid upon parents to shield their children from culturally unhealthy reading material. Therefore, dear brother, it is unnecessary and irresponsible to expose our precious children to these deleterious and inferior books, especially during their formative years when their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn. Besides, is such a needless risk really worth taking, given that they are deluged enough already with offensive material that assaults their senses?
In his book, *An Exorcist Tells his Story *(Ignatius Press, 1999), Father Amorth warns that modern man is loosing his sense of the reality of supernatural evil. As a result, he says, many have made themselves more vulnerable to evil spirits who seek to corrupt and destroy souls. Moreover, Father does not hesitate to say that cultural influences such as film, television, music and books play no small part in lowering spiritual vigilance, “I was able personally to verify how great in the influence of these tools of Satan on the young. It is unbelievable how widespread are witchcraft and spiritism, in all their forms in middle and high school. This evil is everywhere, even in small towns” (pp. 53-54). As an exorcist of many years standing, his opinion respecting witchcraft and its evil being everywhere, ought at least to be taken very seriously by the faithful. Indeed, it is more compelling evidence than any statistics because it comes from a priest of the Church who is well acquainted with the reality of evil in the world, and the channels through which evil corrupts. Father Amorth with his vast experience could see that the Potter tales interface just too closely with the real world of witchcraft, which is why he denounced it the strongest terms: “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. Strong words indeed to speak about a supposedly harmless children’s book series - something about these books must have led him to utter such a grave statement.
Neither myself, nor any commentator who has written a thoughtful critique of the Potter tales has ever suggested that there is a formal religion of witchcraft in the novels. However, their are undoubted parallels to the real life counterpart which are worrisome and this can arouse an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures, especially given what Father Amorth has said (and that was in 1999). It is quite true that the books appear at first glance to disconnect witchcraft from the spiritual and present it as exciting ‘cool’ stuff and in no way spiritually dangerous. However, dear brother, herein lies the danger because it makes the Potter books potentially more corrupting by giving the child a false sense of what witchcraft is really all about.
What I would advise, dear brother, is for men to at least read the Catholic critiques of the Potter books with an open mind and then assess whether their argumentation is sound or sound and whether they are uninformed and misinformed. Moreover, the faithful ought to be made aware, if they are not already, that notable Catholic commentators such as Matthew Arnold, Steven Wood, John Henry Weston, Dr. Philip Ney, Patrick Madrid and Michael O’ Brien, have all provided, each in their respective apostolates, well-grounded criticisms of the Potter books/films. True, they do represent a minority position at the present time, but I firmly believe that the situation will one day change as men rethink what is actually being communicated through these “subtle seductions”. Have you ever read anything which these commentators have written respecting the Harry Potter book series?
That the word ‘magic’ is not being used equivocally is merely your opinion, but many, including myself, do not share that opinion, dear bother.
Those who feel compelled to write negative appraisals of the Potter series do not do so because they are “Potter haters”, but do so because they have genuine misgivings and concerns with the series and feel that it is a part of the ongoing paganization of our culture. The OP has nothing to loose by reading the Catholic critiques of the Potter books and he may even find that the argumentation against them is more cogent than he initially imagined, but he will not know one way or the other until he actually reads them.
God bless and goodbye for now.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
M
MHT32
Guest
I know so many people who think the Harry Potter series promotes witchcraft and such. the people who think this have never even read the books. The main theme of the series is the battle between good and evil and that sacrifices had to be made to defeat evil. Thats a good message, if anything. If I remember correctly, Rowling is a practicing Catholic too. I doubt she’d endorse anti-Catholicism in her books.
S
Sultan_Of_Swing
Guest
I loved and still do love Harry Potter. Great book and film series.
And I will admit that I often dreamed of joining Hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry myself. Wouldn’t every kid dream of that?
The question is of course whether that is spiritually harmful or not.
I cannot speak for others, but for me Harry Potter did not affect my spiritual life in any way whatsoever. I would imagine being in Hogwarts and learning about magic… but not for one second did it ever conflict with my view of God and my Christianity. The two things never crossed. Harry Potter was just like any other great film or book series to me. God was steeped in reality, and Harry Potter was steeped in fiction. Didn’t stop me from wanting it to be real, but never for one second did it ever deter me from the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Harry Potter was just another object to inspire my imagination and I imagined it to be real just as much as I imagined Lord of the Rings and Spider-man to be real.
A lot of people like to yammer on that it is about ‘good and evil’ and not magic, but they’re right. Does a little kid who reads about Harry Potter want to start practising dark arts and magic rituals? Of course not. They want to be running alongside Harry Potter himself and defeating the evil wizard Lord Voldemort!
Harry Potter is a fantastic book and film series, but it has had no bearing on my views of Christianity and my relationship with God. If anything, it has only made me more aware of the divides between good and evil, that universal struggle we all partake in and the sacrifices involved.
And I will admit that I often dreamed of joining Hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry myself. Wouldn’t every kid dream of that?
The question is of course whether that is spiritually harmful or not.
I cannot speak for others, but for me Harry Potter did not affect my spiritual life in any way whatsoever. I would imagine being in Hogwarts and learning about magic… but not for one second did it ever conflict with my view of God and my Christianity. The two things never crossed. Harry Potter was just like any other great film or book series to me. God was steeped in reality, and Harry Potter was steeped in fiction. Didn’t stop me from wanting it to be real, but never for one second did it ever deter me from the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Harry Potter was just another object to inspire my imagination and I imagined it to be real just as much as I imagined Lord of the Rings and Spider-man to be real.
A lot of people like to yammer on that it is about ‘good and evil’ and not magic, but they’re right. Does a little kid who reads about Harry Potter want to start practising dark arts and magic rituals? Of course not. They want to be running alongside Harry Potter himself and defeating the evil wizard Lord Voldemort!
Harry Potter is a fantastic book and film series, but it has had no bearing on my views of Christianity and my relationship with God. If anything, it has only made me more aware of the divides between good and evil, that universal struggle we all partake in and the sacrifices involved.
S
Sultan_Of_Swing
Guest
Rowling’s Scottish Episcopalian, actually.
B
Baelor
Guest
I already stated this in my last post. Please share with me why you feel the need to tell me what I have already stated is the case. This is not a rhetorical request.
Also, please answer my question:
Myself:
If anyone is likely to be misinformed, I would suggest that maybe those who have not even read the series would be likely candidates.
A moral obligation is laid upon parents to guide their children along the path of righteousness. I can read Marx without adhering to communism as a result.
Neither of us is in a position to state that reading a particular book would be deleterious to a particular child (especially when we have not even specified an age).
I challenge your premise that there is even a significant risk involved.
You have a false sense of what constitutes evidence. While we should indeed consider an exorcist’s opinion, his opinion is not scientific. The world population has been increasing. We are now more connected and informed about what is happening with other people. You claimed that occult etc. activity has increased. I asked the following:
Myself:
You then provided a statement of an exorcist – who, in the quotations provided, does not even state that occult activity is inordinately or unexpectedly increasing – that condemns literature in general.
You have therefore not fulfilled either of the necessary conditions:
- Proof that occult activity is increasing (in particular in this age)
- Proof that this activity is due to Harry Potter
I await this evidence with decreasing patience.
I will add one other thing – we both agree that the Bible is a good book. Does that mean that a misreading of the Bible has never caused someone to do something bad? I will let the reader fill in the next steps of the argument, obvious as they are.
Portrait, I am disappointed that you are not acting with integrity. You are trying to pass off anecdotal evidence as actual evidence for a universal trend.
You are more than welcome to refuse to support your argument, but please do not expect others to bend over and take it.
It is much easier to make statements than to support them.
Did he read them? Could he specify exactly what the “signature of the king of darkness” is?
B
Baelor
Guest
Actually, you did something worse:
You claimed that the witchcraft and sorcery in the books is in any way substantively comparable to real-life witchcraft and sorcery, which it is irrefutably not, as others on this very thread have explained.
I will charitably assume that this is merely a lapse in memory; the alternative – that you are just straight-up lying – is naturally less palatable for all involved.
The fact that something can lead to something bad in the hands of the foolish does not mean that it should be banned. Am I to ban all shoes because I can beat someone to death with one? Should we ban candles because they can be used to burn down houses?
Which is only a valid argument if we are assuming that the readers are so weak-minded as to be convinced by every thing they read.
If that is the case for a particular child or a particular age group, then of course they should stay away from the books.
Catholic critiques of the Potter books can also be in favor of reading the books.
Nothing is actually being communicated. There are words on a page. The reader has to right to accept or reject or interpret them in whatever way he feels best. These are works of fiction.
Yes.
It is not something that is up for discussion.
Magic in the real world is different from magic in Harry Potter is different from magic in LoTR. This is factually and objectively the case. Those who debate it may as well debate whether the character of Achilles appears in the Iliad or whether Jesus is described as rising from the dead in the Bible.
Portrait, I am again disappointed that you are acting with such blatant dishonesty. The Church has not condemned Harry Potter, nor can a universally-applicable condemnation be irrefutably derived from Church teachings. You acknowledge Catholic critiques, but seem to deny the existence of any Catholic critique that states that the books are acceptable.
And the OP will not know whether or not said critiques are justified until he actually reads Harry Potter.
Why read a book simply to determine whether you should read another book?
P
Portrait
Guest
Dearly beloved friends,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
The Potter books are a contentious topic upon which men entertain decidedly strong opinions, irrespective of which side of the debate they happen to be on. Having previously been involved in many protracted discussions on this controversy on CAF, I have no desire to get drawn into an endless maze of nuanced debates on the Potter books, tempting though that is sometimes. When this topic periodically arises on these boards my custom now is usually to submit a few contributions and bow out, so this will be my final post. My sincere prayer is that the controversy surrounding the Potter series of books will at least challenge the OP (and others) to consider the questions involved from a deeper and wider perspective. To further this end he has nothing to fear from reading thoughtful critiques of Potter by the respected Catholic commentators that I mentioned in a previous post.
The Potter books need, dear friends, to be examined in the context of the ongoing paganization of children and youth culture, a phenomenom that has already proved to have negative consequences. Morever, little serious attention has been given to the fact that the foundational element of the series is witchcraft and sorcery, unlike the great fantasy works of Messrs. Tolkein and Lewis. The problem that you have today is that there has been a monumental failure to understand the power of cultural material over human consciousness, and thus its effects upon human actions. Many modern Catholics, even those who would identify as conservative, tacitly assume that it is possible to assimilate a great deal of flawed and unwholesome material and yet remain totally impervious to its dangers. However, the young are in a state of formation and are thus vulnerable to the deformation of their understandings of reality, especially as regards the nature of good and evil. Now the huge problem with these Potter books is that they prevent the young from developing a* properly ordered* sense of good and evil, which is hardly surprising since they are relativistic products of our relativistic age. Catholic parents should avoid giving any books that reinforce moral relativism and not risk allowing the minds of their children to be corrupted by false ideology, especially one that blurs the clear distinction between good and evil.
Perhaps the most alarming thing about the Potter books is that they stimulate an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures. Now please do not misunderstand me, dear friends, I am not saying for one moment that Rowling wanted to entice children into the world of witchcraft when she penned her novels. However, children are naturally curious and it would be jolly naïve to imagine that impressionable children would not want to find out more about casting spells, forcasting the future and wizards/witches in general. Indeed, this seems highly probable in the light of my earlier citation from Father Gabriele Amorth and even the most vigilant parental guidance may not be enough to put a check on this unhealthy interest. Children do not perceive it as fantasy or as something that they can never hope to attain themselves. Rowling’s Potter world is telling them they can do it and can *know *how to do it. It truly beggars belief how, as Catholics, can we can consider these Potter books to be culturally healthy reading material for young and impressionable children, who are yet in a state of formation and who’s minds are being forged at every turn.
In these discussions, dear friends, it is frequently said that if magic is so dreadful then why permit or even encourage our children to read The Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings? These classics are on a completely different plain than the Potter books. Most people that are familiar with Messrs. Lewis and Tolkein agree that they are writing at least from a Christian standpoint. Rowling is decidedly not. The ‘magic’ contained in their eminent works is not the same as what we meet with in Potter. The major difference between the two types of magic is that the Harry Potter characters are involved in occultic style magic, albeit in a fictional context. With Messrs. Lewis and Tolkein, and most other fantasy authors, the word magic is not even an apt term for what takes place in their books. Those authors never use the word ‘magic’ themselves - it almost always ascribed by an outsider, namely the reader.
Finally, dear friends, it is pointless teaching our Catholic children morals and ethics at home and school if they are going to be undermined by their leisure reading and television viewing. Children are quick to recognize contradictions of that sort and it is usually the morals and ethics that get discarded.
God bless and goodbye.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax:tiphat:
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
The Potter books are a contentious topic upon which men entertain decidedly strong opinions, irrespective of which side of the debate they happen to be on. Having previously been involved in many protracted discussions on this controversy on CAF, I have no desire to get drawn into an endless maze of nuanced debates on the Potter books, tempting though that is sometimes. When this topic periodically arises on these boards my custom now is usually to submit a few contributions and bow out, so this will be my final post. My sincere prayer is that the controversy surrounding the Potter series of books will at least challenge the OP (and others) to consider the questions involved from a deeper and wider perspective. To further this end he has nothing to fear from reading thoughtful critiques of Potter by the respected Catholic commentators that I mentioned in a previous post.
The Potter books need, dear friends, to be examined in the context of the ongoing paganization of children and youth culture, a phenomenom that has already proved to have negative consequences. Morever, little serious attention has been given to the fact that the foundational element of the series is witchcraft and sorcery, unlike the great fantasy works of Messrs. Tolkein and Lewis. The problem that you have today is that there has been a monumental failure to understand the power of cultural material over human consciousness, and thus its effects upon human actions. Many modern Catholics, even those who would identify as conservative, tacitly assume that it is possible to assimilate a great deal of flawed and unwholesome material and yet remain totally impervious to its dangers. However, the young are in a state of formation and are thus vulnerable to the deformation of their understandings of reality, especially as regards the nature of good and evil. Now the huge problem with these Potter books is that they prevent the young from developing a* properly ordered* sense of good and evil, which is hardly surprising since they are relativistic products of our relativistic age. Catholic parents should avoid giving any books that reinforce moral relativism and not risk allowing the minds of their children to be corrupted by false ideology, especially one that blurs the clear distinction between good and evil.
Perhaps the most alarming thing about the Potter books is that they stimulate an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures. Now please do not misunderstand me, dear friends, I am not saying for one moment that Rowling wanted to entice children into the world of witchcraft when she penned her novels. However, children are naturally curious and it would be jolly naïve to imagine that impressionable children would not want to find out more about casting spells, forcasting the future and wizards/witches in general. Indeed, this seems highly probable in the light of my earlier citation from Father Gabriele Amorth and even the most vigilant parental guidance may not be enough to put a check on this unhealthy interest. Children do not perceive it as fantasy or as something that they can never hope to attain themselves. Rowling’s Potter world is telling them they can do it and can *know *how to do it. It truly beggars belief how, as Catholics, can we can consider these Potter books to be culturally healthy reading material for young and impressionable children, who are yet in a state of formation and who’s minds are being forged at every turn.
In these discussions, dear friends, it is frequently said that if magic is so dreadful then why permit or even encourage our children to read The Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings? These classics are on a completely different plain than the Potter books. Most people that are familiar with Messrs. Lewis and Tolkein agree that they are writing at least from a Christian standpoint. Rowling is decidedly not. The ‘magic’ contained in their eminent works is not the same as what we meet with in Potter. The major difference between the two types of magic is that the Harry Potter characters are involved in occultic style magic, albeit in a fictional context. With Messrs. Lewis and Tolkein, and most other fantasy authors, the word magic is not even an apt term for what takes place in their books. Those authors never use the word ‘magic’ themselves - it almost always ascribed by an outsider, namely the reader.
Finally, dear friends, it is pointless teaching our Catholic children morals and ethics at home and school if they are going to be undermined by their leisure reading and television viewing. Children are quick to recognize contradictions of that sort and it is usually the morals and ethics that get discarded.
God bless and goodbye.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax:tiphat:
K
Kamaduck
Guest
This thread makes me want to finally read the books.
I don’t think that was what Portrait intended, but I’m definitely going to now. One of the adults at my church recommended them, too, so I think they must be good.
I don’t think that was what Portrait intended, but I’m definitely going to now. One of the adults at my church recommended them, too, so I think they must be good.
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