Catholicism and Harry Potter?

[Razanir]

Has anyone else here read The Gospel According to Harry Potter by Connie Neal? She’s Protestant, I think Presbyterian but I don’t know for sure, but she provides a good, solid, generic Christian view that points out the “Christian therms in the stories along with universal therms of goodness”, and shows how the books could be used to share the gospel message. For example, she uses the Devel’s Snare plant from book one as a metaphor for sin. I’ve also remember an apologist on this very sight that used the Harry Potter series to help explain how the choices we make mold is into the kind of people we become, and I think I remember Voldemort’s story being used to explain mortal sin and it’s consequences on the soul.

That’s actually a pretty good analogy. As you struggle to escape Devil’s Snare, it can pull you in more. Even the name “Devil’s Snare” is fitting!

 

[Pheonix]

Many pious men are of the opinion that the Harry Potter series of books are an obvious example of culturally unhealthy reading material,

And…?

Many pious individuals are of the opinion that Harry Potter is perfectly acceptable. What makes your position more credible than mine?

especially for the young who are yet in a state of spiritual formation and do have the potential, at least, to arouse interest in the occultic subcultures.

The fact that millions of children grew up reading Harry Potter, and no records existing of anyone entering the occult world because they read Harry Potter, proves this assertion false. I’ll be waiting with bated breath for your evidence that supports your assertion, however.

Needless to say, this is dismissed as risible by the pro-Potterites and their supporters

And rightly so, if you ask me.

but given the global increase in occultic activity, that concern ought to merit a great deal more serious attention than it does.

Provide evidence that there is a “global increase in occultic activity.”

Provide evidence that Harry Potter is one of the things promoting this “global increase in occultic activity.”

The usual response is to plead that the Potter tales are merely harmless fantasy fiction,

Well, they are a harmless book series. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

even so its leading characters attend a school of witchcraft and sorcery, which practices in the real world are strictly forbidden by both Sacred Scripture and Holy Mother Church (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2117).

And…? We’ve been over this time and time again, Portrait. The magic in Harry Potter is not the same type of magic that is condemned by the Church and Scriptures.

“All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.”

Please, Portrait, provide evidence from any of the seven books where any of the characters “tame occult powers as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others.” Until you do so, your argument fails.

The only characters you can bring up are Wizards like Voldemort, who indulge in Dark Magic. This is a moot point, however, because Dark Magic is unanimously condemned throughout the entire series.

It is just too close for comfort

Says you.

and why would Catholics who are in earnest about the pursuit of holiness want to read fiction that treats of a topic that in real life is “an abomination unto the Lord” (cf. Deut. 18; 9-13)?

Because a fictional portrayal of magic is not an “abomination unto the Lord.”

Moreover, such unwholesome and unworthy literature is hardly conducive to thinking upon those things that are true, pure and lovely (Philipp. 4: 8).

When you provide evidence that Harry Potter is “unwholesome and unworthy literature,” then I’ll agree with this. Until then, I’m content knowing I can find pure, lovely Christian Truth within my favorite book series.

 

[Pheonix]

continued…

Can we honestly contend that the Potter books are utterly free from any debasing elements

Can we honestly contend that any piece of literature is utterly free from any debasing elements?

Literature is crafted by imperfect humans. Therefore, you will be hard-pressed to find a piece of literature that doesn’t have any flaw in it. But a book having some flaws does not mean we should condemn it as spiritually dangerous. According to that logic, we would have to condemn a number of books, poems, short stories, etc. that hold large literary merit.

What are the debasing elements in Harry Potter that make it spiritually dangerous? Until you provide this evidence, you’re doing little more than blowing off fanatical hot air.

and will not leave a blot upon the conscience and a stain upon the soul?

Not everything affects people in the same way, Portrait. You simply cannot paint everyone with the same brush.

Sometimes God-fearing Catholic parents can appear to be unduly prissy or ‘overscrupulous’ and so it is all too easy to dismiss their viewpoint as having no weight and just reactionary.

In the case of Harry Potter, I would have to agree that religious parents tend to be overly zealous, scrupulous, and fanatical.

Rowling’s Potter series falls, I believe, into this category - evil that has the appearance of being good and the very fact that it is a world-wide phenomena that many are embracing makes it look even better.

Until you provide evidence that Harry Potter is subtly disguised evil, I’m calling tripe here.

If it is so bad, men will ask, then why is it so popular and why do good Catholic parents allow their children to read these unwholesome and inferior books? Why do some Catholic commentators sing its praises unreservedly?

Because it isn’t as evil as you seem to think.

Can so many people be deceived so badly?

They can, but this is not the case with Harry Potter. If you think otherwise, then please provide some evidence that supports your assertions.

A resounding yes, for history attests that there is such a thing as mass public deception

And what evidence do you have that Potterheads are deceived and the anti-Potterheads are on some higher plane of rationalization?

The fact that some ‘conservative’ Catholic commentator says that the Potter books are perfectly acceptable reading for the young does not automatically mean that that is the case, it might just mean that the commentator is, on this particular issue, either uninformed or misinformed.

And just because some “conservative” commentator says Harry Potter is subtly disguised evil and is dangerous for children to read does not automatically mean that is the case, especially when the commentator in question doesn’t support any of his arguments and does little more than repeat the same verbose tripe.

And why can’t an anti-Potterhead commentator likewise be misinformed or uninformed of this issue, Portrait?

The devotees and supporters of Potter, dear friend, who praise Rowling’s books never tire of bringing up the same tribute, namely that the tales show the fight between good and evil.

And until you bring up evidence that refutes our views, we will continue using it as one of the praiseworthy characteristics of the series.

However, we are bound to ask, who is good and who is evil in these books?

If you really have to ask this, then I’m going to infer that you know very little about the series.

Harry and his friends = good
Voldemort and his followers = bad

Sacrificing yourself for your family and friends = good
Creating a Horcrux, which involves murder and splitting apart one’s very soul = bad

Look, when a character has as many vices as Harry Potter does, the word ‘good’ does not readily come to mind.

So a character can’t be called “good” because he or she has flaws? That’s astounding logic.

The fight is not so much a fight between good and evil, but rather a fight between evil and not-quite-as-evil!

Substantiate this claim.

The distinctions between good and evil are too blurred

How so?

but the comparison is a superficial one designed to make Potter seem ‘Christian’ and less unwholesome.

It’s not superficial, Portrait. If you condemn Harry Potter because it has “magic” in it, then logic dictates that you must do the same for Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia. Period.

And no one is trying to make Harry Potter “seem” Christian. The series does showcase Christian parallels and teachings.

What is conveniently overlooked is the important distinction as to how these characters perform their magic.

I see no difference.

This is a jolly huge and very emotive topic, dear friend, and I have spoken about it at great length in other threads here on CAF.

And in all the Harry Potter threads I’ve seen you participate in, you have supported none of your assertions. That really shows me just how weak and unsupportable your position really is.

It is available from amazon.com and explodes all the usual pro-Potterite arguments and evinces just how weak and unsupportable they actually are.

I doubt it, but that doesn’t stop people from trying.

Read the book for yourself, rather than hostile and biased criticisms of it by Potter devotees and their supporters.

Right… because anything produced by those who condemn Harry Potter are incapable of being hostile or bias about the subject matter.

 

[JanetF]

Uhm, could someone please remind me what vices Harry has? Seriously!

 

[Pheonix]

However, the issue is surely whether they are uninformed or misinformed in holding such a belief.

Well, then, can you demonstrate that you have significant knowledge of Harry Potter by refuting our arguments with actual evidence from the books? Otherwise, I’m going to conclude that your anti-Potter mentality is an uninformed opinion.

A moral obligation is laid upon parents to shield their children from culturally unhealthy reading material.

Fine. Now, provide evidence that *Harry Potter * is “culturally unhealthy.”

Therefore, dear brother, it is unnecessary and irresponsible to expose our precious children to these deleterious and inferior books,

Says you.

It’s a good thing Harry Potter isn’t a culturally unhealthy, deleterious, or inferior book series.

Besides, is such a needless risk really worth taking, given that they are deluged enough already with offensive material that assaults their senses?

Wait, what? So we shouldn’t allow children to read a harmless book series because there supposedly is harmful reading material out there? That… makes no sense.

Moreover, Father does not hesitate to say that cultural influences such as film, television, music and books play no small part in lowering spiritual vigilance

They can, but there’s no guarantee that that will.

Father Amorth with his vast experience could see that the Potter tales interface just too closely with the real world of witchcraft

Right…

And what evidence does Father Amorth put forth to support his claims?

which is why he denounced it the strongest terms: “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”.

Tripe.

And what evidence does Father Amorth put forth to support his claims?

Strong words indeed to speak about a supposedly harmless children’s book series - something about these books must have led him to utter such a grave statement.

Or he knows little about the series, which I think is the more likely conclusion.

I’ll ask again: what evidence does Father Amorth put forth to support his claims? A priest claiming Harry Potter is bad doesn’t make it so. His voice holds no weight or authority until he provides rational critiques and valid argumentation.

However, their are undoubted parallels to the real life counterpart which are worrisome and this can arouse an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures,

Like…?

It is quite true that the books appear at first glance to disconnect witchcraft from the spiritual

Magic in Harry Potter doesn’t resemble the occult. Period.

Moreover, the faithful ought to be made aware, if they are not already, that notable Catholic commentators such as Matthew Arnold, Steven Wood, John Henry Weston, Dr. Philip Ney, Patrick Madrid and Michael O’ Brien, have all provided, each in their respective apostolates, well-grounded criticisms of the Potter books/films.

Care to share one of this “well-grounded criticisms”?

If their criticisms are like the points you bring up in your posts, then I’m not impressed.

but do so because they have genuine misgivings and concerns with the series and feel that it is a part of the ongoing paganization of our culture.

Therein lies the problem. Harry Potter is doing nothing to promote this so-called “paganization of our culture” because its magic does not resemble the occult.

The OP has nothing to loose by reading the Catholic critiques of the Potter books and he may even find that the argumentation against them is more cogent than he initially imagined, but he will not know one way or the other until he actually reads them.

The best way for a person to assess Harry Potter is for people to actually read Harry Potter, which is something I think many anti-Potterheads have failed to do.

 

[Razanir]

Additional support for Phoenix’ post, directed at Portrait

Literature is crafted by imperfect humans. Therefore, you will be hard-pressed to find a piece of literature that doesn’t have any flaw in it. But a book having some flaws does not mean we should condemn it as spiritually dangerous. According to that logic, we would have to condemn a number of books, poems, short stories, etc. that hold large literary merit.

Lord of the Rings– Orcs are evil because they are orcs
Narnia– People practiced sorcery on one of the islansds from Voyage of the Dawn Treader
Wheel of Time– The main character, Rand, is a (in)famous hero reincarnated
Star Wars– Jediism and the Force are pretty much pantheistic
Romeo and Juliet– They elope
Theban Trilogy (Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colossus, Antigone)– Does the phrase “Oedipus Complex” mean anything to you?
The Scarlet Letter– The plot centers around adultery
Notre Dame de Paris– Banned by the Church at first, but it ironically saved the titular cathedral from being demolished

So a character can’t be called “good” because he or she has flaws? That’s astounding logic.

The only two people to have been sinless are Jesus and Mary. Everyone else, protagonist, antagonist, or otherwise, is going to be flawed.

 

[Pheonix]

The Potter books need, dear friends, to be examined in the context of the ongoing paganization of children and youth culture, a phenomenom that has already proved to have negative consequences.

Harry Potter will be examined in the context of “ongoing paganization of children and youth culture” as soon as:

1. You show Harry Potter portrays actual occult magic.
2. You show there is an ongoing paganization of children and youth culture.

The problem that you have today is that there has been a monumental failure to understand the power of cultural material over human consciousness, and thus its effects upon human actions.

The problem that you seem to have is the monumental failure to understand that not everyone is affected by cultural material in the same way. That is why individual discernment is vital.

Humans may have concupiscence, but we are not hopeless creatures.

Many modern Catholics, even those who would identify as conservative, tacitly assume that it is possible to assimilate a great deal of flawed and unwholesome material and yet remain totally impervious to its dangers.

It is possible. If you think otherwise, provide evidence to the contrary.

However, the young are in a state of formation and are thus vulnerable to the deformation of their understandings of reality, especially as regards the nature of good and evil.

I started reading Harry Potter as a child. I grew up with it. My understanding of reality and the nature of good and evil is just fine. And I can attest that I’m not the only one who fits into such a characterization. So your assertion has little evidence to support it.

Now the huge problem with these Potter books is that they prevent the young from developing a* properly ordered* sense of good and evil, which is hardly surprising since they are relativistic products of our relativistic age.

Says you. Care to support your assertion?

Catholic parents should avoid giving any books that reinforce moral relativism and not risk allowing the minds of their children to be corrupted by false ideology, especially one that blurs the clear distinction between good and evil.

Demonstrate that Harry Potter promotes moral relativism.

Perhaps the most alarming thing about the Potter books is that they stimulate an unhealthy interest in the occultic subcultures.

It’s hard for a book to stimulate an unhealthy interest in occultic subcultures when it doesn’t actually contain anything occultic in it.

So please, Portrait, substantiate your claim.

However, children are naturally curious and it would be jolly naïve to imagine that impressionable children would not want to find out more about casting spells, forcasting the future and wizards/witches in general.

I didn’t. My brother didn’t. My cousins didn’t. My friends didn’t. Why? Because we knew waving a stick around while saying pseudo-Latin incantations isn’t actual magic (playing pretend reinforces that realization). Because our parents and our education taught us the difference between fiction and non-fiction. Because our parents stressed the difference between magic in Harry Potter, Chronicles of Narnia, or Lord of the Rings and occultic magic.

I guess it’s not as “jolly naive” as you seem to think, Portrait.

Children do not perceive it as fantasy or as something that they can never hope to attain themselves.

On what authority and evidence do you make this claim? Can you see into the hearts and minds of children?

Rowling’s Potter world is telling them they can do it and can *know *how to do it.

Substantiate this claim.

Rowling is decidedly not.

Harry Potter is replete with Christian themes and parallels.

The major difference between the two types of magic is that the Harry Potter characters are involved in occultic style magic, albeit in a fictional context.

Substantiate this claim.

With Messrs. Lewis and Tolkein, and most other fantasy authors, the word magic is not even an apt term for what takes place in their books.

What would you call it then, Portrait?

 

[meteoric]

Uhm, could someone please remind me what vices Harry has? Seriously!

Hmmm, he procrastinates; he very often plays chess with Ron rather than do homework.

He doesn’t apply himself. When choosing classes before 3rd year he followed Ron’s choices, who took the easiest classes, rather than Hermione. (Of course, can we can also blame the school for not providing any sort of guidance in the choice. The fact that even the author doesn’t know what Arithmancy is, might have something to do with it

He loses his temper. The Aunt incident in 3rd year and all the yelling and anger in 5th.

He doesn’t think things through. He often reacts and leaps before he looks. But part of that is the fact that the author seemed to go out of her way to ensure that he didn’t have any useful adults to go to for help.

There are problems with the books on a moral ground; the wise wizard seems to permit child abuse, the government is corrupt, very rarely does wrongdoing actually get punished in the books.

But I would say the magic presented is very far away from anything that might exist in the real world. If anyone tries to use it as an in to the occult they wouldn’t get very far.

But they’re fun reads (at least the earlier books).

Tom A.

 

[Skadi]

Provide evidence that there is a “global increase in occultic activity.”

Provide evidence that Harry Potter is one of the things promoting this “global increase in occultic activity.”

There actually has been an increase, however it has been happening for well over a century, and saw significant booms both in the 60s and over the last 10-15 years or so. While Christians attribute this boom to things like Potter and Charmed, the people who actualy practice this sort of stuff generally claim it is because of the Internet and its ability to facilitate the quick and public transfer of information.

This boom started before Potter was even a dream, and 99% of the 13 year old girls who guy a witch book because they love Harry Potter quickly realize that real world magical traditions are nothing like Hogwarts and give up on it. Like I said before, most magic practicing people find these claims ungrounded if not hysterical.

 

[BrethrenBoy]

The only two people to have been sinless are Jesus and Mary. Everyone else, protagonist, antagonist, or otherwise, is going to be flawed.

Not to mention that an absolutely perfect character is usually both dull and annoying to both the reader and writer.

 

[Razanir]

Not to mention that an absolutely perfect character is usually both dull and annoying to both the reader and writer.

It’s why Superman is less interesting than, say, Batman. You already know Superman wins.

THIS NEXT COMMENT IS NOT MEANT TO START A SIDE DISCUSSION. I USE GAME OF THRONES SOLELY AS ANOTHER POINT OF ARGUMENT

It’s also why Game of Thrones is both interesting and irritating to read. No one has plot protection, not even the main characters. No one in that world is perfect, and no one is safe.

 

[BrethrenBoy]

It’s why Superman is less interesting than, say, Batman. You already know Superman wins.

THIS NEXT COMMENT IS NOT MEANT TO START A SIDE DISCUSSION. I USE GAME OF THRONES SOLELY AS ANOTHER POINT OF ARGUMENT

It’s also why Game of Thrones is both interesting and irritating to read. No one has plot protection, not even the main characters. No one in that world is perfect, and no one is safe.

There is a reason people hate Mary Sues so much.

 

[Aggie414]

Hmmm, he procrastinates; he very often plays chess with Ron rather than do homework.

He doesn’t apply himself. When choosing classes before 3rd year he followed Ron’s choices, who took the easiest classes, rather than Hermione. (Of course, can we can also blame the school for not providing any sort of guidance in the choice. The fact that even the author doesn’t know what Arithmancy is, might have something to do with it

He loses his temper. The Aunt incident in 3rd year and all the yelling and anger in 5th.

He doesn’t think things through. He often reacts and leaps before he looks. But part of that is the fact that the author seemed to go out of her way to ensure that he didn’t have any useful adults to go to for help.

There are problems with the books on a moral ground; the wise wizard seems to permit child abuse, the government is corrupt, very rarely does wrongdoing actually get punished in the books.

But I would say the magic presented is very far away from anything that might exist in the real world. If anyone tries to use it as an in to the occult they wouldn’t get very far.

But they’re fun reads (at least the earlier books).

Tom A.

While I agree they’re technically vices, we’re also talking about a boy from the ages of 10 through 17. I didn’t read anything in the books that was not normal behavior for any boy that I’ve ever encountered – and I have six nephews!!!

 

[PMAC123]

It’s fiction, a fantasy. It’s not real. I don’t at all see a problem with it.

Interestingly, in the last book, I found some religious symbolism in it. It almost seemed in a way that Voldemort was representing evil/the devil, and Dumbledore was representing God/good.

 

[PMAC123]

Hmmm, he procrastinates; he very often plays chess with Ron rather than do homework.

He doesn’t apply himself. When choosing classes before 3rd year he followed Ron’s choices, who took the easiest classes, rather than Hermione. (Of course, can we can also blame the school for not providing any sort of guidance in the choice. The fact that even the author doesn’t know what Arithmancy is, might have something to do with it

He loses his temper. The Aunt incident in 3rd year and all the yelling and anger in 5th.

He doesn’t think things through. He often reacts and leaps before he looks. But part of that is the fact that the author seemed to go out of her way to ensure that he didn’t have any useful adults to go to for help.

There are problems with the books on a moral ground; the wise wizard seems to permit child abuse, the government is corrupt, very rarely does wrongdoing actually get punished in the books.

But I would say the magic presented is very far away from anything that might exist in the real world. If anyone tries to use it as an in to the occult they wouldn’t get very far.

But they’re fun reads (at least the earlier books).

Tom A.

What good would a story be if someone was completely morally perfect? Nobody is perfect and everybody has flaws.

 

[Razanir]

I think Portrait needs to come back to this thread. His arguments may be unsubstantiated, but he’s the only poster who really argued anything against HP.

 

[meteoric]

While I agree they’re technically vices, we’re also talking about a boy from the ages of 10 through 17. I didn’t read anything in the books that was not normal behavior for any boy that I’ve ever encountered – and I have six nephews!!!

True. But I was trying to point out how trivial his vices are in respect to the attack from the original poster. And I had trouble coming up with that list

Tom A.

 

[Melissa]

No, you are not alone in that respect. I didn’t realize it was that time already, though.

[IMG ]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...tmbIkMGURF_-7Lz3V9GsOp67lnFrzpg405PK03Q[/IMG]

(because the horse isn’t just beaten to death, he’s already glue)

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m just curious to see what the general Catholic opinion on J. K. Rowling’s popular saga. I understand that very fanatic people will call it satanic and evil, as they say it promotes witchcraft.
First off, I only liked Harry Potter from 1999-2003 and just gave up on it, because they were making the movies while the books were still being written and it took forever for book 5 to come out, and in that time I came to love J. R. R. Tolkien’s Middle Earth. I love The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.

But why do Christians endorse J. R. R. Tolkien’s works, which he wrote as Christian (particularly Catholic) allegories, as well as C. S. Lewis’ Narnia series, but believe Harry Potter comes from the depths of hell? I was always aware that true witchcraft was bad and that the only true faith was Christianity, particularly Catholicism. I never met anybody who was inspired to dabble in satanism and the occult because they read Harry Potter? This magic they speak of is fiction, and real magic is to be condemned. As long as they know the difference…? How can we endorse certain fantasy stories by people like Tolkien and Lewis, but we condemn J. K. Rowling as being inspired by the devil?

I’m not sure if you’re still checking this thread, JD, but I thought I’d try to address your bolded question.

Of course, I’ve seen some people who condemn the use of magic in Potter then also condemn it in Lord of the Rings and Narnia. At least that’s consistent, but not many go that route.

I have seen many defend the use of magic in Tolkein and Lewis but condemn it in Rowling. If you really want to see the basis for such an opinion, you might pick up the book Harry Potter, Narnia, and The Lord of the Rings: What You Need to Know About Fantasy Books and Movies by Richard Abanes. It’s surprisingly inexpensive. This book pretty much lays out all of those arguments.

In a nutshell, they differentiate between how magic is portrayed in the three series.

I don’t buy the explanations they offer, but if you want to know where they’re coming from, that’s the book I would recommend. You might also check out Michael O’Brien’s Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture. I haven’t read that one myself, but he appears to make the same type of arguments in that book. O’Brien is a Catholic novelist, so if you’re looking for why a Catholic would make that argument, I would go to him.

Just a side note, the Amazon page says the book is published by Ignatius Press (who publishes all of O’Brien’s novels and an earlier non-fiction work of his about fiction). This is incorrect. It is actually published by Fides et Traditio Press, a much more obscure publisher. I find that rather telling.

 

[meteoric]

The comment on the other fantasy works reminded me of something.

The oft quoted definition by a certain net-legend of the 90’s:
“It’s Science Fiction if, presuming technical competence on the
part of the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen.
Otherwise, it’s Fantasy.” – John W. Campbell, Jr.

means that not only are stories with magical elements like Star Wars fantasy, but things like Star Trek and Andromeda are too. They are not Science Fiction. Ray guns, teleporters, psychic powers – they are all just magic. You might as well complain about the occult draws of Star Trek as about Harry Potter.

“But wait!” you say, “Star Trek is so removed from the occult that there is no draw!”

I say that Harry Potter is so removed from the occult that most well balanced people will feel no draw, either. And as for unbalanced people – well there are unbalanced fans of Star Trek, too. Do we censor it (or claim it’s dangerous) because of them?

Tom A.