Catholicism and Immigration

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This thread has been created in order to serve as a more civil, and less emotional replacement for this thread, which got out of hand fast and led to very little fruitful discussion.

So. The question of immigration is tricky, particularly illegal immigration. At what point would one say ‘‘enough is enough’’? How far should one go to support immigrants in ones country (if they do not have the means to support themselves)?

My opinion is that support should be given freely to the needy, whether immigrant or ‘‘native’’, but support should not be merely material nor should it solely provide for the immediate needs, thought must be given to the long term benefit our actions will have on people and whether said actions will help them to not have to rely on charity in the future.

That however, does not negate the need for direct and personal action (such as giving food or money to the homeless) when the situation arises.
 
I’m posting only to ensure I don’t forget where I promised to go…Nitey-night…talk with you tomorrow.
 
That’s a very sound post. One can only agree wholeheartedly with paragraphs two and three.

Your question,
“At what point would one say ‘‘enough is enough’’? How far should one go to support immigrants in ones country (if they do not have the means to support themselves)?”
… is never going to have easy answers.
…and it is going to remain an emotional issue, and increasingly so in the current economic situation and with the large and genuinely suffering numbers of unemployed.

We can speak in terms of unemployed, plural, and in general terms of immigrants…but in every case we’re really discussing individuals…and this is what makes the issue so nearly unsolvable.

Of course I think of the family of Jesus whenever I think of any kind of refugees, as they fled to Egypt when Jesus’ life was threatened, so Joseph had to somehow get work to support the family in a foreign country, which meant he took work from the locals. For everyone on each side of the question, it’s very personal.

While so may nationals are out of work one can hardly speak of ensuring that the immigrants should immediately be required to obtain employment. At the same time they put further strain on the welfare system. One would hope that they would be encouraged to seek training it not skilled, rather than remain long-term dependent on the resourses of the nation. Are there guidelines that could be put in place to ensure the latter does not occur?

I think it actually remains a very emotional, not an objective question, even if we wish it were.
 
I think the bottom line is to never forget that we are all immigrants (save of course the few remaining natives). All of our ancestors came over here for reasons ranging from fleeing persecution to better economic opportunity to…well…not really chosing to come here at all. Living in America is not a right or some sacred relic that must be sheilded from defamation, it is a gift. Really, I think this world would be a much happier place if we realized that everything we have is a gift from God.

That having been said, there are procedures for leaving or entering any country. I personally think the ones for entering this country and obtaining citizenship are to stringent and the deportation policies just downright sleazy. But there needs to be some standards for border regulations, and if such standards are disregarded too much, that inevitably leads to trouble.
 
I truly believe laws need to be in place, as we do need to protect ourselves and our livelyhood.

The bigger problem is terrorists who come into this country. The 9/11 ones did not come across the Mexican border, they entered through Canada, some simply just came here by plane and never left.
Instead of admitting their mistakes, many Americans prefer to attack the easier target of the poor man who for the most part is looking to feed his family and have a better life, then to face the fact that they truly failed in tracking these potential killers. BTW, none of the 9/11 people who killed Americans were of Mexican decsent.

When enough is enough? It is when they start applying for government programs.
Amother bigger problem that we must go after the very people who hire them at slave wages. The big companies who have 50 or more employess, who they never laid eyes on and who they never pay a single tax dollars. But then again, the USA, prefering to go the easy route, will go after a legal person who owns a small shop who hires his illegal brother-in-law and cousin to help out. These 2 men are not recieving a dime of government help, as his family is taking care of them, but because they are an *easy *target they are the ones they go after.

But again, no matter what the circumstance every human being deserves to have the basic needs given to him and to be treated like a person. To withhold such, is a sin on our part.
 
BTW, none of the 9/11 people who killed Americans were of Mexican decsent.
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But they were backed by Mexican drug cartels who wanted to clear the US borders of the US Army. And it worked!
 
I think that we, as Catholics, can engage in the political world and participate in the discussions that help form our immigration policies.

For the people who are in this country illegally, I think that we need to treat them with compassion, but deportation is a possibilty.

For parishes that feed the hungry or help the homeless, asking for immigration status is wrong. It doesn’t matter.

Now, should a parish or diocese actually create a ministry to help “immigrants” and not care whether they are legal or illegal? Okay, I’ll go that far.

Should a parish or diocese create a ministry to purposely help illegal immigrants? Depends. Helping them to become legal would be a useful thing. Hiding them from ICE would be a bad thing.

These illegals are God’s children, and we are directed to feed and clothe them.
 
I found this online. If anyone is interested.
  1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
  2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
  3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
  4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
  5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
  6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
  7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
  8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
  9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
  10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
 
Hey_Jude said:
I found this online. If anyone is interested.
  1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
  2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
  3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
  4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
  5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
  6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
  7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
  8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
  9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
  10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
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Hey Jude!! See if you can get a link for us. Welcome to the battle!!
 
Don’t be silly! Didn’t jesus say ‘A nation without borders is not a nation’…oh that was Reagan.

I seem to remember being told that love was the greatest virtue though, that can’t be right :rolleyes:
 
grampben said:
Don’t be silly! Didn’t jesus say ‘A nation without borders is not a nation’…oh that was Reagan.

I seem to remember being told that love was the greatest virtue though, that can’t be right :rolleyes:
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People say a lot of things just to get a job. It’s called politics!
 
Hey_Jude said:
Life used to be so much simpler. I just don’t know whom to believe any more.

snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp
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Here are sites about one of the biggest Mexican drug money laudering operations that US agents working undercover in Mexico revealed. It happened 10 years ago. It involved very repectable banks and bankers.

The Mexican government was angry not at the banks but at the US for spying on them and conducting an undercover operation on their sovereign state. Imagine the hypocrisy. They demanded that the US turn over the US agents to be prosecuted for what they considered spying.

THe US did not hand over the agents, Thank God. But they promised not to conduct another operation without first informing the Mexican government and having their agents cooperate with ours.

Remember that was 10 years ago and Clinton was the US President. And since that time absolutely nothing has been done to make those responsible be held accountable. Foreign governments and drug dealers have free access to our money.

There was a congressional investigation but it led nowhere and nothing was done. But the nerve of Mexico once they got caught and the American lack of outrage has always interested me.

Here are some sites that talk about it.

narconews.com/casablanca1.html

time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980601/latin_america.banking_on5.html

bulk.resource.org/gpo.gov/bills/105/hc288eh.txt.pdf

Here’s one of the best sites on the drug wars and Americas pathetic response to it:

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/

It’s a Frontline special that covers the over 30 years of America’s fight to stop drug and how it has totally corrupted every bit of our society.

I saw this several years ago on PBS. You can still get the VHS tapes but I don’t think they ever offered it in DVD.
 
Thanks for continuing this thread with more sanity.

When GGranddad came to this land in 1849, he was fleeing the inevitable befalling lower Europe at that time. This state was only a territory then, would become a state some 10 years later. He had to buy the acres he settled on, and show productivity for 10 years before he would own it (big families helped with this). The country gave him nothing but a CHANCE to show/prove he could be a gain for society rather then a drain on it. This is how immigration is suppose to work.

But, being Catholic, and what we have in our midst, we are torn both ways living in this country. If the flood of illegals is allowed to continue, it will do as much damage as a water flood does with those that are near the river. But the people are right here, we have to be Christian, and the stories told by them of their respective home-lands is very evil-laden. What can our country/people do to really help these other countries try and improve when there is so much corruption? Like we did with Iraq??? Take the leaders down and develop a more democratic nation? Even helping on the backside, at the people level, the leaders are still there to nullify the effect.

And yes, drugs. This has done perhaps more damage here, then all the other problems combined. Some of these are home-grown, and some are imported. How to arrest it is the question, stop those that use them, or help them to not have the need to use drugs so as to make the need vanish? Or go after the dealers who know where the market is? Just look at the old ‘boot-legging’ in this country, and who became rich off it. I still believe it pays to look at the ‘money-trail’… who is getting rich? Who is getting funds under-the-table to keep this going? And then why some laws are ‘forcibly’ enforced while others are not. In most cases, people become the ‘pawns’ to feed into another’s riches. What is tolerated, or made to be put up with by whatever means (sometimes equality, sometimes religious), and who is benefitting from it. One can look across the board here and see many area’s like this, with immigration being just one cog on the wheel.

Since it is here, right in front of us, we have to do the Christian thing first, but that does not mean we should ignore the country and laws that lack (perhaps, selective) enforcement has made this possible… for whatever reason, or who’s benefit (other then the illegals)…
 
Hi folks—I know I promised to enter the discussion–and I will-- at some point. My nephew died very suddenly Saturday morning. Things are, as you may imagine, a mess. He leaves a 16 year old daughter whom he had reared by himself, and my sister, with whom he had lived when forced to retire medically.

Remember us in your prayers, please, especially my sister and niece. Thanks–see ya later.
 
Michael_David said:
Thanks for continuing this thread with more sanity.

When GGranddad came to this land in 1849, he was fleeing the inevitable befalling lower Europe at that time. This state was only a territory then, would become a state some 10 years later. He had to buy the acres he settled on, and show productivity for 10 years before he would own it (big families helped with this). The country gave him nothing but a CHANCE to show/prove he could be a gain for society rather then a drain on it. This is how immigration is suppose to work.

But, being Catholic, and what we have in our midst, we are torn both ways living in this country. If the flood of illegals is allowed to continue, it will do as much damage as a water flood does with those that are near the river. But the people are right here, we have to be Christian, and the stories told by them of their respective home-lands is very evil-laden. What can our country/people do to really help these other countries try and improve when there is so much corruption? Like we did with Iraq??? Take the leaders down and develop a more democratic nation? Even helping on the backside, at the people level, the leaders are still there to nullify the effect.

And yes, drugs. This has done perhaps more damage here, then all the other problems combined. Some of these are home-grown, and some are imported. How to arrest it is the question, stop those that use them, or help them to not have the need to use drugs so as to make the need vanish? Or go after the dealers who know where the market is? Just look at the old ‘boot-legging’ in this country, and who became rich off it. I still believe it pays to look at the ‘money-trail’… who is getting rich? Who is getting funds under-the-table to keep this going? And then why some laws are ‘forcibly’ enforced while others are not. In most cases, people become the ‘pawns’ to feed into another’s riches. What is tolerated, or made to be put up with by whatever means (sometimes equality, sometimes religious), and who is benefitting from it. One can look across the board here and see many area’s like this, with immigration being just one cog on the wheel.

Since it is here, right in front of us, we have to do the Christian thing first, but that does not mean we should ignore the country and laws that lack (perhaps, selective) enforcement has made this possible… for whatever reason, or who’s benefit (other then the illegals)…
Click to expand...
Imagine that you, along with 29 other people are in a life boat designed to hold only 30 people and no more. As you row to find safety, people from a nearby island swim up to that boat and try to get in. They begin to rock the boat and water begins to get in. One or two actually get in the boat and the rim of the boat gets closer to the water line threatening all in the boat with certain death if more people get in.

You have a gun. If you use it against the people outside the boat, you save your fellow passengers but you yourself threaten your immortal soul because you have killed someone.

Now, what do you do? What would your fellow passengers want you to do? What would Jesus want you to do?

Remember, every soldier who ever fought and killed for this country had to make that same decision.
 
ExclaimPoint said:
Imagine that you, along with 29 other people are in a life boat designed to hold only 30 people and no more. As you row to find safety, people from a nearby island swim up to that boat and try to get in. They begin to rock the boat and water begins to get in. One or two actually get in the boat and the rim of the boat gets closer to the water line threatening all in the boat with certain death if more people get in.

You have a gun. If you use it against the people outside the boat, you save your fellow passengers but you yourself threaten your immortal soul because you have killed someone.

Now, what do you do? What would your fellow passengers want you to do? What would Jesus want you to do?

Remember, every soldier who ever fought and killed for this country had to make that same decision.
Click to expand...
America is not a lifeboat designed for 30. If that is the basis for your analogy you guys are hardly full to capacity.
 
And what if that boat hundreds of years ago was already occupied with natives.
A country built on immigration has no right to refuse it.

I know most people here are pro-legal immigration, but there are a few (or is it just one person :rolleyes: ) who seem to think that noone else is allowed in teh USA except them.
 
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