Catholicism and Immigration

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ExclaimPoint said:
Imagine that you, along with 29 other people are in a life boat designed to hold only 30 people and no more. As you row to find safety, people from a nearby island swim up to that boat and try to get in. They begin to rock the boat and water begins to get in. One or two actually get in the boat and the rim of the boat gets closer to the water line threatening all in the boat with certain death if more people get in.

You have a gun. If you use it against the people outside the boat, you save your fellow passengers but you yourself threaten your immortal soul because you have killed someone.

Now, what do you do? What would your fellow passengers want you to do? What would Jesus want you to do?

Remember, every soldier who ever fought and killed for this country had to make that same decision.
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I could answer this, not with what I ‘would’ do, but what I ‘have’ done. However, it does not consider the topic and what the problems are and what can/should be done about it, both from the Catholic View and the Countries View.
 
LDNCatholic said:
America is not a lifeboat designed for 30. If that is the basis for your analogy you guys are hardly full to capacity.
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Yep! Come on down. Just make sure you check in with the innkeeper first.

Yes, we are no where full.
 
LDNCatholic said:
So. The question of immigration is tricky, particularly illegal immigration. At what point would one say ‘‘enough is enough’’? How far should one go to support immigrants in ones country (if they do not have the means to support themselves)?
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most polemic directed against immigrants, here and elsewhere is rooted firmly in racism, prejudice and ignorance, and not in legal issues. The issue of illegal immigration is tricky because the law itself, as everyone on every side of the issue agrees, is urgently in need of reform. The law is itself based in racism, prejudice and ignorance of an earlier day which should long ago have been eradicated. When we have a good law, it will be much easier to deal with the real issues.

In the meantime, if you deny health care to those who need it, you risk a public health crisis and compromise the health of citizens. If you deny education and other support to families you compromise the families and the well-being of the children, and limit the chance for those families to become productive citizens. Every denial of care for basic human needs will have not only a human cost for the people in need, but a far greater and devastating cost for the local community and the wider society. To rant and rave without considering the true cost, of aid or of failing to aid, those in need, is a wast of time, space and effort and availeth nothing.
 
I have to say I am a huge fan of immigration. Most of my children are immigrants, my great-grandmother was an immigrant, etc. etc. However, I go rabid about illegal immigration. For some reason people try to mix the two together, and they are not even remotely the same thing. As a Catholic I understand that we need to help our fellow man, but having people come here and violate our laws that were created to protect us all, is a breach of basic civility if nothing else.

A country needs to be allowed to protect its own people and our immigration laws are in place to enable that to happen. I can’t understand why we would advocate violating a country’s laws when those laws are not immoral but created for the larger good. A huge influx of illegal immigrants is destabilizing to our country. You can argue that it isn’t, but it already has in some key areas. It has put law-abiding service industries out of business (like roofers, construction etc) because they can’t compete against those who pay sub-standard wages to illegals. It has caused theft of identities to document their ability to work here. In California, at least 84 hospitals have had to close because of unreimbursed medical expenses from illegals. I understand that they are fleeing problems from their country, and I blame our government for not protecting our borders (a basic responsibility of a federal government), but the fact remains it is not a good thing for our country or any law-abiding citizen.

If we need more flexible plans for allowing more immigrants, then the laws can be changed so appropriate services can be provided.
 
puzzleannie said:
most polemic directed against immigrants, here and elsewhere is rooted firmly in racism, prejudice and ignorance, and not in legal issues. The issue of illegal immigration is tricky because the law itself, as everyone on every side of the issue agrees, is urgently in need of reform. The law is itself based in racism, prejudice and ignorance of an earlier day which should long ago have been eradicated. When we have a good law, it will be much easier to deal with the real issues.

In the meantime, if you deny health care to those who need it, you risk a public health crisis and compromise the health of citizens. If you deny education and other support to families you compromise the families and the well-being of the children, and limit the chance for those families to become productive citizens. Every denial of care for basic human needs will have not only a human cost for the people in need, but a far greater and devastating cost for the local community and the wider society. To rant and rave without considering the true cost, of aid or of failing to aid, those in need, is a wast of time, space and effort and availeth nothing.
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Well said!
 
ExclaimPoint said:
When it’s in your neighborhood, you’ll feel different.
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I live in an area statistically designated the least homogenous part of England. That is to say, nearly 9 out of 10 faces I see walking down the street are from a different ethnic background than my own.

Its in my neighbourhood, and I certainly feel different to you.
 
grampben said:
And what if that boat hundreds of years ago was already occupied with natives.
A country built on immigration has no right to refuse it.

I know most people here are pro-legal immigration, but there are a few (or is it just one person :rolleyes: ) who seem to think that noone else is allowed in teh USA except them.
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We all have choices to make. If they don’t follow the laws then “ipso facto”, no one has to follow any laws!

If the Catholic Church endorses what those people are doing, the Church must apply that rule to all.

If an person hops across the border, uses devious means to obtain goods and services that US taxpayers will have to pay for, I, being a loyal US citizen, have the duty to retrieve that property through any means necessary and return it to my fellow Americans.

I have no moral questions about that duty!
 
LDNCatholic said:
I live in an area statistically designated the least homogenous part of England. That is to say, nearly 9 out of 10 faces I see walking down the street are from a different ethnic background than my own.

Its in my neighbourhood, and I certainly feel different to you.
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Do these people smile at you or give you the “evil eye”? If you don’t live in my neighborhood, you can’t possibly understand the problem. These aren’t the harmless people they show on TV. These are blood thirsty gang members who are just wainting to strike! Could you live in that environment?
 
ExclaimPoint said:
Do these people smile at you or give you the “evil eye”? If you don’t live in my neighborhood, you can’t possibly understand the problem. These aren’t the harmless people they show on TV. These are blood thirsty gang members who are just wainting to strike! Could you live in that environment?
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I’ve been stabbed twice. Mugged, randomly attacked and robbed more times than I can count, so have my siblings, my parents, friends, and so on. Still living, still living in ‘‘that environment’’.

Some people smile, some people don’t. You obviously don’t want to be their friend so why do you care if they smile?
 
LDNCatholic said:
I’ve been stabbed twice. Mugged, randomly attacked and robbed more times than I can count, so have my siblings, my parents, friends, and so on. Still living, still living in ‘‘that environment’’.

Some people smile, some people don’t. You obviously don’t want to be their friend so why do you care if they smile?
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You’re right! I don’t want to be the friend of some psychotic gang member. Who would? Would you?

The gang are here because no one stop them.
 
ExclaimPoint said:
You’re right! I don’t want to be the friend of some psychotic gang member. Who would? Would you?

The gang are here because no one stop them.
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What makes people turn to gangs in the first place?

Oh and as for being friends with gang members, it all depends on the person, not what they do.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.
 
LDNCatholic said:
What makes people turn to gangs in the first place?
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People join gangs out of fear and for power. Many people joined the Nazi party out of fear. Many joined to get power.

The individual is the only free man on earth. He doesn’t join groups or betray his friends or country from fear.

I’m an American because I’m here. I didn’t join up. But I do feel an obligation to those who have defended this country in the past. I do not feel any obligation to any immigrant group or religious group.
 
ExclaimPoint said:
People join gangs out of fear and for power. Many people joined the Nazi party out of fear. Many joined to get power.

The individual is the only free man on earth. He doesn’t join groups or betray his friends or country from fear.

I’m an American because I’m here. I didn’t join up. But I do feel an obligation to those who have defended this country in the past. I do not feel any obligation to any immigrant group or religious group.
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I’m a human because I’m here, I didn’t join up. But I do feel an obligation to all my fellow humans. I do not feel any obligation to jump on the bandwagon of intolerance.

You speak as if you understand their situation, as if you know what is going through their mind. Tell me, how did you reach this level of empathy?
 
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puzzleannie:
most polemic directed against immigrants, here and elsewhere is rooted firmly in racism, prejudice and ignorance, and not in legal issues.
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It is not possible to properly respond to charges such as this without getting banned from the forum. Accusations of this type have been used so regularly and for so long that we no longer recognize how inappropriate they are. If the charges in that phrase were changed from racism, prejudice, and ignorance to arrogance, sanctimoniousness, and stupidity and hurled back the other way everyone would see the insult for what it is: juvenile name calling. The moderators should be no more tolerant of one form of insults than the other.

Since the topic of this thread is Catholicism and Immigration I just want to point out that there is no specifically Catholic solution. That is, these are practical issues that allow individuals to choose completely opposite solutions. There is no “moral” answer (although some solutions could be immoral). Nonetheless I have no doubt that the USCCB will come out with their own (personal) views on the subject.

Ender
 
LDNCatholic said:
I’m a human because I’m here, I didn’t join up. But I do feel an obligation to all my fellow humans. I do not feel any obligation to jump on the bandwagon of intolerance.

You speak as if you understand their situation, as if you know what is going through their mind. Tell me, how did you reach this level of empathy?
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Every child on earth has been confronted with evil at one time or another. You might call one a bully, or a gang member, or a Nazi but it is all the same thing: EVIL! People trying to impose their will upon another.

If you do nothing to stop them then you condone evil.
 
ExclaimPoint said:
Every child on earth has been confronted with evil at one time or another. You might call one a bully, or a gang member, or a Nazi but it is all the same thing: EVIL! People trying to impose their will upon another.

If you do nothing to stop them then you condone evil.
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I work with teenage gang members and give them a chance to do something positive. I have had mixed successes but there have been successes nonetheless. I am ending gang violence in London. What are you doing?
 
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