Catholicism and Immigration

[LDNCatholic]

Why don’t you hop over to France and see what the French did to people who collaborated with the enemy.

Those collaboraters had perfectly good reasons for what they did too! Profit! Gang membership will end when they are treated with the same contempt as an invader would be.

Countries will continue to be invaded until the world rises against these animals and remove them from the earth. Where were all these gangs 50 years ago? Before the US was invaded with drugs, these gangs only existed in small groups and were looked at by the average person as just a ridiculous fringe to normal society.

The rate of repeat offenders shows that being nice to these animals breeds more crime. One of the few successful prisons in the US was Alcatraz. They had an unbelivably low rate of returning prisoners because that prison didn’t treat the criminal like anything other than what he is. A criminal. No excuses. Even Al Capone received no special treatment.

If these gansters were quickly removed from society, the world would not be in the shape it is in today.

Building a whole industry around criminals to arrest them, judge them, house them, treat them, release them, and allow them to kill again so the process can be repeated so everyone will keep their high paying jobs is as dangerous to the public as just letting them roam the streets to terrorize at will.

You not part of the solution at all. Your just another link in the chain that feeds criminal behavior, sonny!

No I am sorry. I am sorry that I seem to have given you the impression that your opinion carries any weight in this discussion. You use the terms immigrant, Mexican and gang member almost interchangeably, now you seem to be calling them animals (i.e less than human) and calling for their deaths.

I repeat. Other than whining about the problem and calling for genocide, what are YOU doing to fix this problem. Because so far in your five guises all you have done is whine about how tough life is for poor little you and how the nasty Mexicans are taking away everything and threatening you.

The boys I work with are now almost fully rehabilitated. Clean of drugs, don’t carry weapons, getting good grades in school and setting their sights on university. They are unlikely to repeat offend. So please, do not speak on subjects you obviously have no knowledge of. You don’t speak to these ‘‘gang members’’ so you know nothing of gangs. You call for their deaths so I am not surprised they give you nasty looks.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Peter, thank you for the work you are doing. I admit I’ve not done any work in this area, so I’m glad that someone is. God bless you and your work. My work is different, but we all should contribute what we can.

Well to be honest it wasn’t work I set out to do, it just kind of fell into my lap. But I suppose thats probably how you came accross your work too. It happens according to His will.

God bless.

 

[4GBradley]

No I am sorry. I am sorry that I seem to have given you the impression that your opinion carries any weight in this discussion. You use the terms immigrant, Mexican and gang member almost interchangeably, now you seem to be calling them animals (i.e less than human) and calling for their deaths.

I repeat. Other than whining about the problem and calling for genocide, what are YOU doing to fix this problem. Because so far in your five guises all you have done is whine about how tough life is for poor little you and how the nasty Mexicans are taking away everything and threatening you.

The boys I work with are now almost fully rehabilitated. Clean of drugs, don’t carry weapons, getting good grades in school and setting their sights on university. They are unlikely to repeat offend. So please, do not speak on subjects you obviously have no knowledge of. You don’t speak to these ‘‘gang members’’ so you know nothing of gangs. You call for their deaths so I am not surprised they give you nasty looks.

For someone who lives in a country made safe by Americans, you sure have a hatred of them.

You also know everything about life in America. You really are special.

You also know how Americans should feel about the invasion of their country. You’re not just special, you should be in politics.

Maybe you should bring your wonderful talent for dealing with gangs over here and tell us what we are doing wrong.

No. Why leave a safe neighborhood for one where you would have to learn a foreign language just to get a job.

I’d love to hear more about how you are single handedly saving your country, but I’d rather open a history book to see how others have handled invasions in the past.

Buenos dias, your majesty!!

---

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well to be honest it wasn’t work I set out to do, it just kind of fell into my lap. But I suppose thats probably how you came accross your work too. It happens according to His will.

God bless.

Yes, I fell into my work too by God’s providence. Had I known what I was getting into, I might have re-considered Nah, God’s will be done.

I think what most of us can agree on in this thread is that whatever immigration laws are in place should be followed. But, whatever man made laws are in place do not trump the commandments of God. If we see those in need, we are called to help them.

Our Lord spoke about giving.

Matthew 10:42 (NASB)

“And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.”

He didn’t give conditions for our giving. Time and space do not allow the many examples of passages like the one above. Someone quoted Pope Benedict earlier and his thoughts on immigration. And I think his words are wise.

 

[Michael_David]

I think what most of us can agree on in this thread is that whatever immigration laws are in place should be followed. But, whatever man made laws are in place do not trump the commandments of God. If we see those in need, we are called to help them.

Agreed!

 

[Ender]

I think what most of us can agree on in this thread is that whatever immigration laws are in place should be followed.

People on both side of this issue should at least agree on this much. Unfortunately the government doesn’t seem to agree which is why we have these problems in the first place - which leads to the real question: what should be done with those who have violated our laws and are here illegally? I am personally unaware of a good argument that such behavior should be rewarded.

Ender

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

People on both side of this issue should at least agree on this much. Unfortunately the government doesn’t seem to agree which is why we have these problems in the first place - which leads to the real question: what should be done with those who have violated our laws and are here illegally? I am personally unaware of a good argument that such behavior should be rewarded.

Ender

Any solution has its problems.

1. To find and deport all illegal immigrants would cost a fortune. And it still wouldn’t keep others from coming through.
2. To build a fence along the southern border would also be expensive. And it still wouldn’t keep everyone out.
3. To help Mexico fix its problems so that their people could live and prosper in their own country (avoiding the need to immigrate) is a long-term solution that again would cost a fortune.

Probably, to do both 1, 2 and 3 is the way to go, which leaves us with how to practically and monetarily do that.

I personally don’t have the answers. But, I do know the answer is not to treat immigrants like animals or call them animals, like some have done. They are created in God’s image, just like we are. God loves them, just like He loves us. We just have to remember that.

 

[Ender]

Any solution has its problems.

1. To find and deport all illegal immigrants would cost a fortune. And it still wouldn’t keep others from coming through.
   It costs little to deport them and there is little need to seek them out. We should start by deporting the ones we find and impose penalties on employers who hire them. Many illegals would return on their own if the jobs dried up.
2. To build a fence along the southern border would also be expensive. And it still wouldn’t keep everyone out.
   It wouldn’t keep everyone out but it would certainly put a stop to the massive influx we have now. If a fence stopped even half it would be a success and I suspect it would be at least that effective.
3. To help Mexico fix its problems so that their people could live and prosper in their own country (avoiding the need to immigrate) is a long-term solution that again would cost a fortune.
   Mexico is a sovereign nation about which we can do very little. One way to get them to address their problems is not to let them use us as the solution.

I do know the answer is not to treat immigrants like animals or call them animals, like some have done.

Enforcing our laws and sending them home is not treating them like animals.

Ender

 

[grampben]

Again, the issue is not one group being ‘against the law’, it is are the laws too strict? Should we have laws that literally alienate fellow human beings? Not should we have to obey the law.

 

[Michael_David]

Again, the issue is not one group being ‘against the law’, it is are the laws too strict? Should we have laws that literally alienate fellow human beings? Not should we have to obey the law.

Please explain further…

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Enforcing our laws and sending them home is not treating them like animals.

Ender

I wasn’t referring to that. I was referring to people like 4GBradley who calls them animals.

I don’t think the cost of deporting them is as inexpensive as you imply. And it would take a lot of money and law enforcement to round them all up. How much do you think it costs for our border control alone?

Some experts believe that to get at the root cause of the immigration problem, someone has to deal with the reason they come, i.e. instability in the Mexican society, lack of livable wages, etc. No amount of simply telling the Mexican government to fix themselves is going to magically make it better.

As I said, building a fence is one solution, but far from being “the” solution. And it’s a bandaid approach. We should probably do it, but it has to be part of a comprehensive approach. And it is expensive.

I’d have to look up some estimates on the cost of these scenarios, but the last reports I saw were staggering. And given our economical mess now, I don’t see how we could afford it.

I’m not saying do nothing. I’m just supplying some options that have been kicked around by our government, all of which fall short of the overall goal.

EDIT: I found some articles that deal with estimates of the cost of deportation and building a fence along the southern border.

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501605_pf.html

thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/estimate-for-deporting-illegal-immigrants-94-billion/

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/08/BAG6RNEJJG1.DTL

Based on the figures presented by these few sources, the price tag for the fence is estimated at 49 billion dollars and maintaining it for 25 years. The cost of deportation is estimated from between 41 billion and 91 billion per year to deport them, more than the Homeland Security’s budget will allow.

I’d like to know how we can pay for this.

 

[grampben]

Please explain further…

Well the people on the more anti-immigration side (though pro legal immigration) generally oppose people who are softer on the issue by saying that anybody supporting these ‘aliens’ doesn’t have respect for the rule of law.
The issue is not people having a contempt for the law, rather the opinion that immigration laws are too tough, and should be liberalised.
It’s not my place to definitively say what the USA should do, as I am an Irish and British citizen, and I understand both viewpoints. It’s just for people to get beyond the ‘Racist vs Anarchist’ etc fights that happen so often when talking about immigration.

 

[Ender]

I don’t think the cost of deporting them is as inexpensive as you imply. And it would take a lot of money and law enforcement to round them all up.

Their presence in our country imposes huge costs now; deportation should not be expensive - although one can never tell what procedures the courts will impose. As I said, the idea that we have to round them up is a red herring. Once we start deporting those who naturally surface - traffic violations, incidental arrests, employer records - life here would become much less inviting. Huge numbers would leave voluntarily if they found themselves continually worried about being discovered - not to mention being unable to find jobs.

Some experts believe that to get at the root cause of the immigration problem, someone has to deal with the reason they come, i.e. instability in the Mexican society, lack of livable wages, etc. No amount of simply telling the Mexican government to fix themselves is going to magically make it better.

Mexico has their problems, we have ours. I’m not really concerned about the root cause in Mexico; I am primarily concerned about the negative effect in the US.

I’m not saying do nothing. I’m just supplying some options that have been kicked around by our government, all of which fall short of the overall goal.

It is not that we are not able to address the problem it is that we have so far been unwilling to do so. We made no progress with the Republicans in power; I only foresee the problem getting worse under the Democrats.

Ender

 

[JPUSC]

youtube.com/watch?v=Z0cNqtUtufo

 

[Michael_David]

Well the people on the more anti-immigration side (though pro legal immigration) generally oppose people who are softer on the issue by saying that anybody supporting these ‘aliens’ doesn’t have respect for the rule of law.
The issue is not people having a contempt for the law, rather the opinion that immigration laws are too tough, and should be liberalised.
It’s not my place to definitively say what the USA should do, as I am an Irish and British citizen, and I understand both viewpoints. It’s just for people to get beyond the ‘Racist vs Anarchist’ etc fights that happen so often when talking about immigration.

Your view from across the pond has objective merit because you are not in the middle of it nor taking sides because of it.

Those that agree with the law say enforce it; those that do not say change it; so what should happen with the law as it stands now… that is the question. Will everyone agree? Perhaps not! But this is a Democracy, so, the majority has it. The minority can always disagree.

And, I agree with Mystic on the costs; that Mexico is a sovereign nation (but isn’t the USA a sovereign nation too?); that laws should be enforced as they are to see how that goes; not use selective enforcement which tends to nullify the true intent of the law in it’s entirety; if the laws are enforced, the costs of going against it will have too many consequences and they may decide not to come here… in the USA anyway.

I have often wondered why the criminal element keeps growing and is so tough to eradicate. Where one gets arrested, two take there place… it seems to grow. Does this boil down to our laws again, or the selective enforcement of them? I have no answer for it, it’s just an observation.

 

[grampben]

Your view from across the pond has objective merit because you are not in the middle of it nor taking sides because of it.

Those that agree with the law say enforce it; those that do not say change it; so what should happen with the law as it stands now… that is the question. Will everyone agree? Perhaps not! But this is a Democracy, so, the majority has it. The minority can always disagree.

And, I agree with Mystic on the costs; that Mexico is a sovereign nation (but isn’t the USA a sovereign nation too?); that laws should be enforced as they are to see how that goes; not use selective enforcement which tends to nullify the true intent of the law in it’s entirety; if the laws are enforced, the costs of going against it will have too many consequences and they may decide not to come here… in the USA anyway.

I have often wondered why the criminal element keeps growing and is so tough to eradicate. Where one gets arrested, two take there place… it seems to grow. Does this boil down to our laws again, or the selective enforcement of them? I have no answer for it, it’s just an observation.

It’s hard to know. I guess this is why we elect politicians, to pass over our own responsibilities but also to make the tough decisions. Our job is to either congratulate them or express our dissatisfaction. I love democracy

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Their presence in our country imposes huge costs now; deportation should not be expensive - although one can never tell what procedures the courts will impose. As I said, the idea that we have to round them up is a red herring. Once we start deporting those who naturally surface - traffic violations, incidental arrests, employer records - life here would become much less inviting. Huge numbers would leave voluntarily if they found themselves continually worried about being discovered - not to mention being unable to find jobs.

Of course there are inherent costs that we are incurring now. I’m not negating that fact. The question is - what are those costs? We would be saving money in the long run. But, can we afford on the front end to finance the deportation?

Mexico has their problems, we have ours. I’m not really concerned about the root cause in Mexico; I am primarily concerned about the negative effect in the US.

But, if we are to stop the immigration long term, something has to be done inside Mexico to change the reasons why they come. Don’t you agree that getting at the root of the cause is the long-term solution? I’m also concerned about the effect in the U.S. That’s my point. Can we afford to do it?

It is not that we are not able to address the problem it is that we have so far been unwilling to do so. We made no progress with the Republicans in power; I only foresee the problem getting worse under the Democrats.

Ender

I don’t agree with that. I don’t think we are able to practically do so. I think we have been unwilling and unable to do so.

 

[Michael_David]

It’s hard to know. I guess this is why we elect politicians, to pass over our own responsibilities but also to make the tough decisions. Our job is to either congratulate them or express our dissatisfaction. I love democracy

Seems it then becomes our Christian Responsibility down at the individual level.

 

[grampben]

Seems it then becomes our Christian Responsibility down at the individual level.

And as christians do you turn people away and send them back home? I dunno, I reckon the christian way is to help these folks out, advising them to try applying for citizenship and immigrating legally.

 

[Michael_David]

And as christians do you turn people away and send them back home? I dunno, I reckon the christian way is to help these folks out, advising them to try applying for citizenship and immigrating legally.

If I do not know, nor do I ask if they are legal or not, they are fellow human beings. Once I know they are illegal, I then become part-and-parcel to the illegal act if I assist in them remaining such, other then the necessities needed for existence. In essence, I should turn them in to the authorities, but make sure they are well fed for the trip back.

It is that law, where it would show up on one’s ID there valid dates to be here, that got defeated at our state level. We are to remain a ‘don’t ask… don’t tell’ people. More or less, let the INS track them down and do what they do, at the federal level… keeping the state in the dark. There are ways that they get caught at the state level, and that is by no ID, wrong ID with finger prints, someone turning them in at the employee level, and mostly hap-hazard, rather then proper enforcement.