Catholicism and Immigration

[grampben]

I’ll listen to any American willing to fight for his country. Everyone else is an appeaser.

***“An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last.”

• Winston Churchill***

What comes first, God or country?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

There is no Just War only murder. Do not excuse yourselves! But there is good and evil, there is right and wrong and as there is a God in heaven, he also would declare the invasion of the United States by forces from the south of its border to be a wrong and an evil act that must be opposed by the forces of the free world.

So, you’ve spoken to God about this? And he’s told you this, eh? Wow, you’re a prophet!

God and history will record the decisions you make today as either patriotic or cowardly. There will be no fence sitting, no theory, no bible thumping. He will judge and those who were betrayed will glory at His judgment. Those who came before us to fight their battles without hesitation shall see God’s righteousness and they will be vindicated.

I’ve not seen God speak much about patriotism in the Bible. He had a lot to say about sin and obedience, though. It gets dangerous when people start claiming their war is sanctioned by God. After all, many evil, murderous and unstable dictators claim that they were doing God’s will. And they were wrong.

Your quotes of Churchill and Tecumseh just aren’t going to cut it. There is no just reason to bomb Mexico (which you spoke of earlier). No amount of emotionalism is going to make that a just act.

 

[LDNCatholic]

So you follow God, not because it’s the right thing to do, but because of a big reward you think you’ll get!!

As God has said many time,: “I’d rather have an honest enemy than a phony friend!”

All killing is wrong! World War 2 should have ended all killing on this planet but people get lazy. Understanding that to prevent war you must prepare for it is the number 1 lesson that countries have always forgotten in their pursuit of wealth.

The only reason people keep using the US borders as a revolving door is because the American people put up with it. It would have stopped years ago, and saved countless lives, if the aroused US citizenry had demanded it.

When did God say that? Quote me it in Sacred Scripture we do not discuss private revelation here.

I follow God because it is right. The difference is I say ‘‘Thy will be done’’. You however decide what is right and delude yourself into thinking it is God’s will. That puts you on a moral par with terrorists and cult leaders.

What do you do to solve problems?

Can you quote the statement that you attribute to God?

Vaya con Dios.

 

[4GBradley]

When did God say that? Quote me it in Sacred Scripture we do not discuss private revelation here.

I follow God because it is right. The difference is I say ‘‘Thy will be done’’. You however decide what is right and delude yourself into thinking it is God’s will. That puts you on a moral par with terrorists and cult leaders.

What do you do to solve problems?

Can you quote the statement that you attribute to God?

Vaya con Dios.

How many people would show up at Church on Sundays without being rewarded for doing so.

I guess you might call the Apostles the phony friends when they didn’t even show up for God’s crucifixion. You can always tell who your friends are when your in trouble. You really don’t need to read what God was thinking now do you!

You must be reading from the Spanish edition of the bible where it’s OK to invade other countries and steal from poor of those countries.

 

[LDNCatholic]

How many people would show up at Church on Sundays without being rewarded for doing so.

I guess you might call the Apostles the phony friends when they didn’t even show up for God’s crucifixion. You can always tell who your friends are when your in trouble. You really don’t need to read what God was thinking now do you!

You must be reading from the Spanish edition of the bible where it’s OK to invade other countries and steal from poor of those countries.

OK, so you can’t answer my question, thats fine. I understand that when people lose an arguement they get desperate and have a tendancy to say anything to try and gain the upper hand. Just say so next time amigo .

I would not call the Apostles phony friends, and I think you need to read the story over. If God would rather true enemies why did Judas meet a traitor’s death whereas the remaining Apostles were blessed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Your nation was built by people invading and stealing from other nations. Glass houses come down fairly quickly mate, watch out.

 

[PaulinVA]

Your nation was built by people invading and stealing from other nations. Glass houses come down fairly quickly mate, watch out.

Hey, mate, how many countries in the world celebrate their Independence Day from the US versus how many celebrate their independence from Britain?

Sorry, I’m on your side, but that was just asking for it.

 

[grampben]

Hey, mate, how many countries in the world celebrate their Independence Day from the US versus how many celebrate their independence from Britain?

Sorry, I’m on your side, but that was just asking for it.

America’s imperialism works differently than British imperialism. You guys own the world through markets

 

[LDNCatholic]

Hey, mate, how many countries in the world celebrate their Independence Day from the US versus how many celebrate their independence from Britain?

Sorry, I’m on your side, but that was just asking for it.

Not British

Besides, I wasn’t the one who made a claim of being a victim of foreign invaders like our friend Bradley here.

 

[PaulinVA]

America’s imperialism works differently than British imperialism. You guys own the world through markets

Yeah, that’s why everyone loves us!

Oh, wait…

No they don’t.

The US is the big gorilla in the world because the founders didn’t break it up into a dozen countries. It’s just the size. That, and our forefathers were kicked out of some of the best countries on the planet!

 

[4GBradley]

When did God say that? Quote me it in Sacred Scripture we do not discuss private revelation here.

I follow God because it is right. The difference is I say ‘‘Thy will be done’’. You however decide what is right and delude yourself into thinking it is God’s will. That puts you on a moral par with terrorists and cult leaders.

What do you do to solve problems?

Can you quote the statement that you attribute to God?

Vaya con Dios.

But what is THY WILL? No one knows! I state that the US is being invaded and you call me a racist. Are you the expert on race relations? Are you the judge of what is all holy? When did I talk of killing anyone who hasn’t first invaded this country. It’s called self defense sonny!

General Curtis LeMay , who planned the firebombing of Tokyo during WW2, was supposed to have said years after the war was over, “I supposed if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.”

 

[4GBradley]

So, you’ve spoken to God about this? And he’s told you this, eh? Wow, you’re a prophet!

I’ve not seen God speak much about patriotism in the Bible. He had a lot to say about sin and obedience, though. It gets dangerous when people start claiming their war is sanctioned by God. After all, many evil, murderous and unstable dictators claim that they were doing God’s will. And they were wrong.

Your quotes of Churchill and Tecumseh just aren’t going to cut it. There is no just reason to bomb Mexico (which you spoke of earlier). No amount of emotionalism is going to make that a just act.

Maybe He doesn’t talk to you because he doesn’t like what you are doing in His name.

 

[LDNCatholic]

But what is THY WILL? No one knows! I state that the US is being invaded and you call me a racist. Are you the expert on race relations? Are you the judge of what is all holy? When did I talk of killing anyone who hasn’t first invaded this country. It’s called self defense sonny!

No. It is self defence when an invading army sets out to destroy people and in an attempt to save lives, you kill their soldiers (as long as the method falls within the Just War Theory)

It is self defence when you defend your own life in personal combat against someone who has decided to attack you.

Attacking an entire ethnic group because of your hatred for them, which you justify by citing the actions of a monority, is not self defence, it is racial violence.

You said earlier all killing is wrong, yet you try to justify the killing of an entire people. Strange.

Given that I do not hate my neighbour and wish him dead, that I am willing to sit down and speak to those of a different background, despite what prejudices may be held on both sides, I’d say I have a better grasp of race relations than you.

And as for knowing the Will of the Lord. Follow the Church. Thats always a safe bet.

 

[4GBradley]

OK, so you can’t answer my question, thats fine. I understand that when people lose an arguement they get desperate and have a tendancy to say anything to try and gain the upper hand. Just say so next time amigo .

I would not call the Apostles phony friends, and I think you need to read the story over. If God would rather true enemies why did Judas meet a traitor’s death whereas the remaining Apostles were blessed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Your nation was built by people invading and stealing from other nations. Glass houses come down fairly quickly mate, watch out.

Gosh! I believe yours was too! But I’m not going to accuse you doing something that you didn’t personally do.

I have read the bible from cover to cover and how you expect people to live their lives according to it is beyond me. And I don’t claim to be any holier than the next guy.

And the apostles ran out on Jesus. Better read it again!

 

[LDNCatholic]

Gosh! I believe yours was too! But I’m not going to accuse you doing something that you didn’t personally do.

I have read the bible from cover to cover and how you expect people to live their lives according to it is beyond me. And I don’t claim to be any holier than the next guy.

And the apostles ran out on Jesus. Better read it again!

Ireland? No we weren’t. Do a brief fact check buddy. As for not accusing people of things they didn’t personally do…well I don’t believe all Mexicans have planned to invade.

They ran out…but then He gave them the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[pnewton]

America’s imperialism works differently than British imperialism. You guys own the world through markets

I love this post. Why steal what you have the money to buy.

 

[grampben]

I love this post. Why steal what you have the money to buy.

Yep!
I hope you realise I wasn’t being 100% serious, incase you think I’'m some sort of anti-American

 

[KingAlfred]

This thread has been created in order to serve as a more civil, and less emotional replacement for this thread, which got out of hand fast and led to very little fruitful discussion.

So. The question of immigration is tricky, particularly illegal immigration. At what point would one say ‘‘enough is enough’’? How far should one go to support immigrants in ones country (if they do not have the means to support themselves)?

My opinion is that support should be given freely to the needy, whether immigrant or ‘‘native’’, but support should not be merely material nor should it solely provide for the immediate needs, thought must be given to the long term benefit our actions will have on people and whether said actions will help them to not have to rely on charity in the future.

That however, does not negate the need for direct and personal action (such as giving food or money to the homeless) when the situation arises.

The conflict isn’t as grave as one might imagine. The Catechism says every nation has the right to control immigration across its borders. Therefore, we can remain in good standing with the Lord, while at the same time helping to enforce the immigration laws of the land.

 

[4GBradley]

No. It is self defence when an invading army sets out to destroy people and in an attempt to save lives, you kill their soldiers (as long as the method falls within the Just War Theory)

Self defence is the excuse but the killing is still wrong! When a bullet is headed your way, you don’t have time to discuss the Just War Theory which is only a theory, not law!

It is self defence when you defend your own life in personal combat against someone who has decided to attack you.

 

[4GBradley]

Ireland? No we weren’t. Do a brief fact check buddy.

There are groups who have murdered all over the world. Fact Check the New York City Draft Riots during the American Civil War. A lot of African Americans got their necks streched by the Irish.

As for not accusing people of things they didn’t personally do…well I don’t believe all Mexicans have planned to invade.

That didn’t mean that they didn’t abandon Him.

 

[Michael_David]

The conflict isn’t as grave as one might imagine. The Catechism says every nation has the right to control immigration across its borders. Therefore, we can remain in good standing with the Lord, while at the same time helping to enforce the immigration laws of the land.

Yes, I do not see this as a war to be fought, even though people tend to want to ‘flock’ here, even today as in the past, for whatever reasons, whether personal or things going on in their own countries that ‘persuade’ them to.

The ‘problem’ is not THEM… the ‘problem’ is US. It is us not enforcing the immigration laws; it is us that is allowing it to happen (whether for moral or economic reasons); it is us that haven’t got disgusted enough to petition Washington to get the borders under control; it is us that allows Western Union to send most of those earnings back to their own country rather then they spending it here; it is us that have lost control of it… so we should only look in the ‘mirror’ to see who the problem is. The illegal is a mere ‘reflection’ of us and our own problem.

It also becomes a problem for the legal immigrant because of our inability to know who is who, as the lax enforcement and laws that ‘purposely’ keep the individual citizen in the dark. Again, it is US that have allowed this to happen (as we were looking other ways).

Even kids will do things they shouldn’t when their parents back is turned… why wouldn’t border-crossers do the same when the nations back is turned? And we have Human-Nature at it finest.