CATHOLICISM and ISLAM

[MMLJ]

Greetings to All.

I am interested in views, comparisons, differences, references, comments, and anything that is productive in information exchange regarding these two Monotheistic Religions.

One topic I would like to be shown here with references (where possible), as to how Catholics see that How Jesus the Christ is thought of as the last giver of the word of GOD and The only way To Salvation, and To how Islam claims that Muhammad gave the last word of GOD. Obviously both cannot be the last Word (revelation) of GOD.

Another topic of interest is the Qur’an (KORAN). The manner it was received, the time frame received, how it was written and length of time of pen to paper, Does the Original exist?, …,etc.
What does the Koran say of the Torah and the Holy Bible?

What is the Hadith and why is it required?

The Holy Trinity is also a good topic to discuss as this is the basis of Catholicism and what The Qur’an (Koran) says about the Most Holy Trinity.

Why in Catholicism GOD is the Father and in Islam of 99 names of God, Father is not one of them?

So as you can see it is fairly open to many topics but it would be more beneficial if we proceed in an organized manner, such as one topic at a time, in order to allow less confusion and time to assimilate information.

**Please make this a polite and intelligent discussion and refrain from insults and making inappropriate comments. ** I hope that this can be an ongoing thread and an opportunity for many of you to explain these religions in detail.

 

[buffalo]

Start here:

Muslims Worship the One True God
Only Their ‘Receiving Apparatus’ Is Defective

 

[MMLJ]

Start here:

Muslims Worship the One True God
Only Their ‘Receiving Apparatus’ Is Defective

That is a interesting article, but I was looking to start something such as this:

Did the Angel Gabriel give the text to Mohammad as Islam claims?

Should not a great book of this importance be given by GOD and not an angel?
Since we know GOD spoke directly to Moses(FACT) and gave him the 10 COMMANDMENTS (FACT).

 

[nonsumd]

Start here:

Muslims Worship the One True God
Only Their ‘Receiving Apparatus’ Is Defective

buffalo, thanks for posting this link. The article does a great job of explaining and defending Church teaching on this matter.

Fundamentist Protestants and, as the article points out, hyper-traditionalist (e.g. sedevacantist) Catholics use the Popes’ eirenic declarations about Muslims as fellow believers in the One God of Abraham as evidence of papal apostasy.

I would argue rather that, in balancing the two goods of (1) proclaiming that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of revelation and is God’s specifically ordained means by which humankind comes to salvation and (2) giving respect to other religions as (by the grace of God) teachers of truths that the Catholic Church also teaches, the Popes have just been **continuing the Church’s role as “a sign of contradiction” in the world as its founder, Jesus Christ, was and is a “sign of contradiction.” **

In this case, the Church is challenging ***both those who say that there is no such thing as the truth so all religions have an equal portion of what does not exist (the relativists and indifferentists) and ***those who insist on an absolute monopoly on truth and access to God’s grace that not even God Himself can circumvent.

 

[nonsumd]

That is a interesting article, but I was looking to start something such as this:

Did the Angel Gabriel give the text to Mohammad as Islam claims?

Should not a great book of this importance be given by GOD and not an angel?
Since we know GOD spoke directly to Moses(FACT) and gave him the 10 COMMANDMENTS (FACT).

As Christians, we cannot believe that a book that denies the Incarnation or the Trinity could be given by an angel of God.

Having said that, I am not ready to say that I absolutely know the book was given by an angel of another kind, of darkness.

For Muslims, the Qur’an is the Word of God. The only proper equivalent in Christianity is the Person of Jesus Himself, not the Bible, that library of books showing clearly the work of human minds and not simply that of the divine mind.

One potential argument against Islam is that it does not generally acknowledge the role of human minds in the creation of texts recognized as Scripture, something the majority of Christians accept. Christianity does not begin with the revelation of a book as Islam and Mormonism do, but rather with God revealing Himself through a person, through the Incarnation.

Coincidentally, the angel Gabriel did have a role – as messenger to the Virgin Mary – in bringing God’s Word to earth. Gabriel’s role is no different in Islam – he announced to Muhammad that Muhammad would be the one to receive the Word of God from God.

 

[Verisimilitude]

That is a interesting article, but I was looking to start something such as this:

Did the Angel Gabriel give the text to Mohammad as Islam claims?

No. The first visitation the spirit never identified itself but only threw Mohamed to the ground 3 times. The spirit never identified itself- other people did (his first wifes Christian uncle), who never saw or heard the revelations. No one but Mohamed ever heard or saw anything and Mohamed is the only witness.
Read this Hadith. (Book #1, Hadith #3)
It is clear Moahmed did not know who/what tossed him about, and the spirit did not greet Mohamed in the same manner as almost every other biblical account such as a greeting of peace and do not fear.

Should not a great book of this importance be given by GOD and not an angel?

It is not a great book. It lacks both truth and wisdom.

Since we know GOD spoke directly to Moses(FACT) and gave him the 10 COMMANDMENTS (FACT).

It actually says an angel of the Lord.

Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

Abraham also met an Angel seemingly.

Genesis 22:11
But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied.

 

[MMLJ]

I would argue rather that, in balancing the two goods of (1) proclaiming that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of revelation and is God’s specifically ordained means by which humankind comes to salvation and (2) giving respect to other religions as (by the grace of God) teachers of truths that the Catholic Church also teaches, the Popes have just been **continuing the Church’s role as “a sign of contradiction” in the world as its founder, Jesus Christ, was and is a “sign of contradiction.” **

You may argue that but I Know that part of your comment 'Jesus Christ, was and is a “sign of contradiction”, is ridiculous and heretical. You should know, from pure logic at least,** that Jesus is not a sign of contradiction. Even Islam concurs on this**.

In this case, the Church is challenging ***both those who say that there is no such thing as the truth so all religions have an equal portion of what does not exist (the relativists and indifferentists) and ***those who insist on an absolute monopoly on truth and access to God’s grace that not even God Himself can circumvent.

Again, it obvious GOD can circumvent anything since he is GOD.
Your statement requires a reference, i.e. where is it stated that there is an absolute monopoly on truth? Everybody has access to the truth, but whether it is they want to believe it is another matter.

 

[MMLJ]

No. The first visitation the spirit never identified itself but only threw Mohamed to the ground 3 times. The spirit never identified itself- other people did (his first wifes Christian uncle), who never saw or heard the revelations. No one but Mohamed ever heard or saw anything and Mohamed is the only witness.
Read this Hadith. (Book #1, Hadith #3)
It is clear Moahmed did not know who/what tossed him about, and the spirit did not greet Mohamed in the same manner as almost every other biblical account such as a greeting of peace and do not fear.

It is not a great book. It lacks both truth and wisdom.

It actually says an angel of the Lord.

Abraham also met an Angel seemingly.

I AM NOT SURE WHAT BIBLE YOU ARE USING COMRADE BUT THIS IS FROM THE LATIN VULGATE:

EXODUS 19:19
And the sound of the trumpet grew by degrees louder and louder, and was drawn out to a greater length: Moses spoke, and God answered him.

EXODUS 33:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, …

LEVITICUS 1:1 And the Lord called Moses, and spoke to him from the tabernacle of the testimony, saying…

EXODUS 6:2 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: I am the Lord,

EXODUS 6:13 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, and he gave them a charge unto the children of Israel, and unto Pharao the king of Egypt, that they should bring forth the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

**EXODUS 24:12 And the Lord said to Moses: Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them.
**

There are many more.

CONCLUSION: GOD SPOKE TO MOSES.

Please be honest when posting DO NOT PUT FALSE or MISLEADING INFO. Thank you.

(NOTE: he even spoke to Aaron, Moses brother who made the idol of Gold, so why did GOD speak not to MUHAMMAD? )

 

[nonsumd]

You may argue that but I Know that part of your comment 'Jesus Christ, was and is a “sign of contradiction”, is ridiculous and heretical. You should know, from pure logic at least,** that Jesus is not a sign of contradiction. Even Islam concurs on this**.

How can it be heretical when it is biblical?

Luke 2:34: “This child [Jesus]… is to be a sign that will be opposed…” [RSV, this corresponds to the older translation, “sign of contradiction”].

 

[FCEGM]

You may argue that but I Know that part of your comment 'Jesus Christ, was and is a “sign of contradiction”, is ridiculous and heretical. You should know, from pure logic at least,** that Jesus is not a sign of contradiction… . .**

Neither ridiculous nor heretical; you don’t know Scripture very well.

Luke 2:34. And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother: ‘Behold this child is set for the fall and for the resurrection of many in Israel and for a sign which shall be contradicted.’

Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household.

12:51-53 Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation. For there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided: three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son and the son against his father: the mother against the daughter and the daughter against her mother: the mother-in-law against the daughter-in-law and the daughter-in-law law against her mother-in-law.

 

[MMLJ]

Neither ridiculous nor heretical; you don’t know Scripture very well.

Luke 2:34. And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother: ‘Behold this child is set for the fall and for the resurrection of many in Israel and for a sign which shall be contradicted.’

Maybe I do not know somethings well, but I can say neither do you, for example using your own reference:

St Luke2:34 et benedixit illis Symeon et dixit ad Mariam matrem eius ecce positus est hic in ruinam et resurrectionem multorum in Israhel et in signum cui contradicetur 35 et tuam ipsius animam pertransiet gladius ut revelentur ex multis cordibus cogitationes (Latin Vulgate)

St Luke 2: 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

note:“For the fall”… Christ came for the salvation of all men; but here Simeon prophesies what would come to pass, that many through their own wilful blindness and obstinacy would not believe in Christ, nor receive his doctrine, which therefore would be ruin to them: but to others a resurrection, by their believing in him, and obeying his commandments. (Douay-Rheims)

You fail to interpret what is meant by contradiction, this is what is meant by it:

St. John 14 :6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

 

[Genesis315]

MMLJ,

I highly recommend giving this chapter a read from Hillair Belloc’s “Great Heresies.”

The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed

It is a very informative look at Islam from a Catholic perspective.

 

[Genesis315]

Concerning the Trinity, the Koran, when condemning the it, messes up who makes up the Trinity:

When criticizing Christianity, “Allah” claims that the Christian Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and Mary and nowhere is the Holy Spirit even mentioned at all as being worshipped as God. You’d think if he was going to condemn the Trinity he should probably have chosen to condemn the persons who actually make up the Trinity :yawn:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): “O Jesus son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ (5:116)

 

[MMLJ]

MMLJ,

I highly recommend giving this chapter a read from Hillair Belloc’s “Great Heresies.”

The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed

It is a very informative look at Islam from a Catholic perspective.

Thank you for this great link. I have read some and it is excellent.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I AM NOT SURE WHAT BIBLE YOU ARE USING COMRADE BUT THIS IS FROM THE LATIN VULGATE:

Since I do not have the Latin Vulgate in front of me can you quote the passsges I cited:
Exodus 3:2
Genesis 22:11

How do you account for the three visitors to Abraham in Genesis 18?

CONCLUSION: GOD SPOKE TO MOSES.

Please be honest when posting DO NOT PUT FALSE or MISLEADING INFO. Thank you.

I always have the intention to be honest when I post information. Nothing I have said is false or misleading. You have drawn a conclusion that is not fully supported; regardless it does not detract from the authority of Moses or Abraham, or Mary.

(NOTE: he even spoke to Aaron, Moses brother who made the idol of Gold, so why did GOD speak not to MUHAMMAD? )

God remains a mystery in how He speaks to humanity, but it can reasonably be determined if it is God speaking either from Himself or through an Angel, or if it not from God or and Angel.

Moses performed great signs through God, Mohamed didn’t. Abraham’s experiences were witnessed by his wife and people, no one was witness to Mohameds revelations.

Why should Mohamed be believed at all? Was he from the race of prophets- Jewish? No. Does he abide by Mosaic Law? No. Was he fortold to be a prophet? No. Did Mohamed understand the faith of Jews and Christians? No.

Did Abraham steal from others? No. Did Mohamed? Yes.
Did Moses, Abraham, or Jesus marry a child, their sons wife after forcing them to divorce, send out assassins, or alter the Word? No. Did Mohamed? Yes.

God is faithfull. Mohamed and allah are not.

 

[MMLJ]

Concerning the Trinity, the Koran, when condemning the it, messes up who makes up the Trinity:

When criticizing Christianity, “Allah” claims that the Christian Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and Mary and nowhere is the Holy Spirit even mentioned at all as being worshipped as God. You’d think if he was going to condemn the Trinity he should probably have chosen to condemn the persons who actually make up the Trinity :yawn:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): “O Jesus son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ (5:116)

Good Points. One would think since Allah is all knowing, he should have not have made such a simple mistake as not realizing what others believe the Trinity is.

It would be great to hear a Muslim address this here.

 

[MMLJ]

I always have the intention to be honest when I post information. Nothing I have said is false or misleading. You have drawn a conclusion that is not fully supported; regardless it does not detract from the authority of Moses or Abraham, or Mary.

I retract my wrong conclusion. I apologize, it is good you have honest intentions.

Moses performed great signs through God, Mohamed didn’t. Abraham’s experiences were witnessed by his wife and people, no one was witness to Mohameds revelations.

I agree.

Did Abraham steal from others? No. Did Mohamed? Yes.
Did Moses, Abraham, or Jesus marry a child, their sons wife after forcing them to divorce, send out assassins, or alter the Word? No. Did Mohamed? Yes.

I agree

The Holy Trinity and Allah are not the same GOD.

 

[hamba2han]

Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.

While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.

e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.

f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.

g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.

h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

The Truth

  The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.

And BTW, there are hardly any meaningful differences between Catholicism and Protestantism worth even thinking about as far as Muslims are concerned.

003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

 

[nonsumd]

MMLJ,

it was you who rejected out of hand the idea of Jesus and by extension His church being a “sign of contradiction” without knowing what I meant by using that term.

This phrase has always been understood by the Church and, putting it in the context of Christ’s message and life and death example and the world’s reception of these things, is easily understood from Scripture to mean that Christ will confound the expectations and inclinations of the world and of human nature.

For instance, Jesus says those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword to those who believe God sanctions violence even in His name, while also saying, “I have not come into the world to bring peace, but the sword,” to those who think that giving in to society’s desire for harmony overrides the imperative to follow Christ and His truth.

That Jesus is recorded as saying things that on the surface contradict each other is itself a sign of contradiction that reveals what is in the hearts of men who selectively read scripture for their own, rather than God’s, purposes.

 

[nonsumd]

When criticizing Christianity, “Allah” claims that the Christian Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and Mary and nowhere is the Holy Spirit even mentioned at all as being worshipped as God. You’d think if he was going to condemn the Trinity he should probably have chosen to condemn the persons who actually make up the Trinity :yawn:

As far as I have ever heard, the Ha-Shem (G-d) of the Jews has yet to endorse the Trinity.

Why do we blame the Muslims for taking the Jews’ words for the nature of God (unitarianism) rather than our Christian word about the nature of God (trinitarianism)?

Why do we not condemn the Jews for rejecting the Trinity, only the Muslims?

Oh, yes, we Christians did condemn Jews for that, putting them in…