CATHOLICISM and ISLAM

[nonsumd]

Hello hamba-hambahan,

thanks for making it clear that the Qur’an does not define the components of the Trinity.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about the rest of your post.

As I have explained in another post, I believe that, if we recognize that the essence of God is love, then it takes nothing away from Him, it is indeed His greatest glory, to have become incarnate in human form and accepted a human death for our salvation.

That God is One being and yet exists in Three Persons, one of which took on human form and accepted human death for humankind’s sake – these are indeed ideas that challenge the human mind more than the idea of a God whose nature and actions are easier for humans to comprehend.

For me, these more challenging ideas and their radical implications for how we are to treat each other are what powerfully suggest to me that they come from God and not man.

Peace!

 

[FCEGM]

Maybe I do not know somethings well, but I can say neither do you, for example using your own reference:

St Luke2:34 et benedixit illis Symeon et dixit ad Mariam matrem eius ecce positus est hic in ruinam et resurrectionem multorum in Israhel et in signum cui contradicetur 35 et tuam ipsius animam pertransiet gladius ut revelentur ex multis cordibus cogitationes (Latin Vulgate)

St Luke 2: 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

note:“For the fall”… Christ came for the salvation of all men; but here Simeon prophesies what would come to pass, that many through their own wilful blindness and obstinacy would not believe in Christ, nor receive his doctrine, which therefore would be ruin to them: but to others a resurrection, by their believing in him, and obeying his commandments. (Douay-Rheims)

You fail to interpret what is meant by contradiction, this is what is meant by it:

St. John 14 :6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

I see you are practicing what is known as “CYA”. You made the accusation that to say that Jesus is a sign of contradiction was heretical. You were corrected and now you come back saying that I should have explained what is meant by “contradiction”.

I can see that this is going to be a REAL fun thread.

 

[Booklover]

As far as I have ever heard, the Ha-Shem (G-d) of the Jews has yet to endorse the Trinity.

Why do we blame the Muslims for taking the Jews’ words for the nature of God (unitarianism) rather than our Christian word about the nature of God (trinitarianism)?

Why do we not condemn the Jews for rejecting the Trinity, only the Muslims?

Oh, yes, we Christians did condemn Jews for that, putting them in…

I don’t believe the Jews have accused us of being polytheists as Muslims do!

Vickie

 

[MMLJ]

I see you are practicing what is known as “CYA”. You made the accusation that to say that Jesus is a sign of contradiction was heretical. You were corrected and now you come back saying that I should have explained what is meant by “contradiction”.

I can see that this is going to be a REAL fun thread.

I can see you are still in la-la land.:whacky:
You have yet to correct me.
You are still lost in translation:hypno:
Stick to the thread and stop being a ‘Sign of Contradiction’
Word out G.

 

[MMLJ]

MMLJ,

it was you who rejected out of hand the idea of Jesus and by extension His church being a “sign of contradiction” without knowing what I meant by using that term.

It is better and advisable if you stick to what you know, not what you assume you know.
I hope that is clear if not let me know, so as I can send you a private message to elucidate for you.

You are a bit slow this has already been addressed in Post #11.
But tell me is: “sign of Contradiction” and “sign which shall be contradicted” the same thing?
Is it not His New Covenant that will bring Controversy?

So is this what you and your colleague FGHIJ are referring to:

Acts of Apostles 28:22
But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest; for as concerning this sect, we know that **it is every where contradicted. **((Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.))

Go on, tell us you are getting your info from JP2 book ‘Sign of Contradiction’ and Wikipedia, do not be shy.
If so, need I say more?

 

[Booklover]

Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.

While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.

e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.

f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.

g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.

h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

The Truth

The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the “Mother of God” and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.

And BTW, there are hardly any meaningful differences between Catholicism and Protestantism worth even thinking about as far as Muslims are concerned.

Why do you keep misrepresenting what we believe? So as to have a reason to wage a jihad against us??

BTW the Holy Spirit is often depicted as a dove or as tongues of fire, so that’s another lie from your Muslim apologetics site.

003.085

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

You don’t know that God said that, you only know that Muhammad said he did!

Vickie

 

[MMLJ]

Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is,

Rightfully so since you have proved in your post you, Mohammad nor Allah have not understood what the Trinity is. In any event Allah should at least know what Catholics Know since he is supposed to be God. Of course you have shown the opposite.

As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

Further attests to either your lack of research or ongoing propaganda to try and deceive others. Deception is a SATANIC Trait. SEE Below.

The FALSE

  The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.

As another member has already pointed out that the Holy Ghost portrayed as a Dove or Tongues of Fire (common knowledge to any Muslim- Trust me I know my Muslim relatives know).
Deception is a SATANIC Trait.

And BTW, there are hardly any meaningful differences between Catholicism and Protestantism worth even thinking about as far as Muslims are concerned.

Catholics Know that there are great differences in these Each of which claims to be the True Islam ALL of which USE the QUR’AN and the HADITH: Why are they so confused? I thought the Qur’an is perfect, if so why has it spawned so many sects?

Sunni, Shi’a, Sufism ,Ahmadiyya, Kharijite Sects, Zikri,Nation of Islam, Moorish Science, Submitters, Qur’an Alone,…,etc. etc.

Also there divisions within these divisions, oh and if that is not confusing enough there are movements within sects.
For Example:
Sunnism

* 1 Schools of Fiqh
      1.1 Hanafi
            - 1.1.1 Deobandi
            - 1.1.2 Barelwi
       2.1.2 Hanbali
       2.1.3 Maliki
       2.1.4 Shafi'i
* 2. Schools of Kalam
       2.2.1 Ash'ari
       2.2.2 Maturidi
       2.2.3 Murjite
       2.2.4 Mu'ta

It is not over yet in each of these sects there may be movements:
**Movements within sects noted above
**
1 Salafism
2 Wahhabism
3 Liberal
4 Islamism
5 Tablighi Jama’at

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Jesus the Christ, or the Incorrect term used by Islam Jesus the Prophet, said this:

** I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

**

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

hamba2han, Mary’s titles relating her to the Trinity demonstrate that she is not considered a deity by Catholics: Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit. They do reveal the mysteries of the inner life of the One God and motivate us to seek her intercession. She is God’s masterpiece, His perfect creation. She is above all angels, all prophets, all saints; the Queen of Heaven; the mother of all humanity by the salvation merited by her Son on the cross. God clothed Himself in her flesh, dwelt in her womb, and walked among men. That makes Mary pretty impressive, and the likes of Mohamed pretty unimpressive, to us. Apparently Mary impresses Muslims, too:

For 10 years, Zakir Hussain and his wife consulted gynecologists and even visited clairvoyants to see how they could have children.

Now the father of two sons, Hussain shared the secret of their success. “Not medicine, but Mary answered our prayers,” the 35-year-old Muslim told UCA News at the National Marian Shrine at Mariamabad, where he had beseeched the blessed mother’s help. His first boy was born in 2004, followed a year or so later by the second. He vowed to bring his family to pay homage to Mary at the shrine’s grotto for 12 consecutive years.

Hussain and his young family were among the 900,000 devotees who joined in the 58th annual pilgrimage to the shrine for the Sept. 8 feast of the Nativity of Mary. Groups of Muslims as well as Catholics started pouring into the village 260 kilometers (about 160 miles) south of Islamabad on Sept. 6. Lahore Aarchdiocese administers the shrine in Mariamabad, literally the city of Mary…

Pakistani Catholics, Muslims flock by thousands to Marian shrine

Welcome to the real world.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.

While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.

e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.

f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.

g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.

h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

The Truth

  The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.

And BTW, there are hardly any meaningful differences between Catholicism and Protestantism worth even thinking about as far as Muslims are concerned.

003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Then you all worship a hunk of Black Rock.

You place in a prominent place of prayer for the purpose of worshipping and venerating, in the corner of your Kaabah. You bow towards it 5 times a day. You go on piligrimage to it, and when you arrive you try to kiss it.

ALL Christians, btw, have and do worship the Holy Spirit.

Btw how do you explain the hadith, that all have been touched by Satan, except Jesus and His mother Mary (your prophet evidently not exempting himself)?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

hamba2han, Mary’s titles relating her to the Trinity demonstrate that she is not considered a deity by Catholics: Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit. They do reveal the mysteries of the inner life of the One God and motivate us to seek her intercession. She is God’s masterpiece, His perfect creation. She is above all angels, all prophets, all saints; the Queen of Heaven; the mother of all humanity by the salvation merited by her Son on the cross. God clothed Himself in her flesh, dwelt in her womb, and walked among men. That makes Mary pretty impressive, and the likes of Mohamed pretty unimpressive, to us. Apparently Mary impresses Muslims, too:

Pakistani Catholics, Muslims flock by thousands to Marian shrine

Welcome to the real world.

GREAT post. Such sites can be multiplied.

As to your first paragraph, I would say that muslims in general, aside from statues (they write his name instead) venerate Muhammad far more than the Latins venerate the Virgin.

 

[MMLJ]

GREAT post. Such sites can be multiplied.

As to your first paragraph, I would say that muslims in general, aside from statues (they write his name instead) venerate Muhammad far more than the Latins venerate the Virgin.

Congrats on your 2000th post.:dancing:

 

[MMLJ]

ERRORS IN QUR’AN(and there are many):

example:

The Qur’an in sura 9:30 makes the mistake of claiming that the Jews believed that Ezra was the Son of God, the Messiah, similar to what Christians assert of Jesus the Christ
.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Can a follower of Islam Please explain this HUGE ERROR?

 

[St_Isidore]

I also found ERRORS IN THE KORAN

Concerning the GOSPEL:

Sura 5:46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

The Koran praises the GOSPEL.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I also found ERRORS IN THE KORAN

Concerning the GOSPEL:

Sura 5:46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

The Koran praises the GOSPEL.

I think it is impossible (as in against their nature) for any and all Angels and/or spirits to include jinn et al. (Moslems hold Satan is a jinn, not a fallen Angel) to deny the Truth of God.

I believe Satan actually spoke that verse to Mohamed knowing it was to be recorded in the Quran. Satan mocks God in allowing Mohamed to be deceived by what he is telling Mohamed as having the authority of God. Since Satan does not have legitimate authority from God, but Knows of God, in his Pride and malice he allows Mohamed to give reverence to what Satan himself refused to give Man.

And (remember) when We said to the angels: “Prostrate unto Adam.” They prostrated except Iblees (Satan). He said: “Shall I prostrate to one whom You created from clay?”
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #61)

What Satan doesn’t say in the Quran, Mohamed made up but here he (Satan)is speaking with contempt for that Truth he reveals to Mohamed. The tenor of the Quran is one of angst and in some cases ignorance. Satan is the angst, Mohamed is the ignorance and together- the noble koran- is really bad.

Just as Satan (and other demons-jinns) could not deny who Jesus is when He was tempted 600 years earlier and began His public ministry, Satan cannot by Nature deny that Truth to Mohamed…but he can twist what he has already shown contempt for- humanity. Satan thinks Mary and Moses and others are fair game as it were. He changes their words easily with that false conviction because Mohamed is unlearned and a normal 7th century suerstitious man. Easy pickings.

A Gold Coin in a cesepool is that verse, only to confuse is its purpose. There is no new Truth, no new enlightenment, no new Wisdom in the Quran. By dismissing the entire Koran without exception is no slight or danger to my faith because any Truth it did mimic is not lost or diminished as it is found in a more trustworthy source - the NT- in full.

 

[Valke2]

Along the lines of keeping things respectful, we should each of us remember that when we are discussing our neighbor’s religion, we are touching on something – whether Allah, Muhammed, Jesus, Moses… That is so sacred to millions or hundreds of millions of people that they have changed their lives because of these people (or God(s) ). Any comments should therefore be primarily respectful of that fact.

 

[nonsumd]

As to your first paragraph, I would say that muslims in general, aside from statues (they write his name instead) venerate Muhammad far more than the Latins venerate the Virgin.

I think you are right on this.

Although, strictly speaking, Islam considers Muhammad a mere mortal, and as such he is not comparable to Jesus for Christians since Chirstianity views Jesus as not just human but also divine, Muslims do exalt in terms very similar to the ways Christians exalt Jesus (which is to say they go well beyond how Catholics-Orthodox exalt Mary, whom they never consider anything but a human).

Some Sufi teachings even regard Muhammad as an emanation of God – a description most Islamic teaching would reserve for the Qur’an.

Sufis also identify the inner reality of the Prophet, or the Muhammadan Reality (al-haqiqat al-muhammadiyyah), with God’s first creation, which became finally manifested on earth in his last prophet, who once said, “I was a prophet when Adam was between water and clay.” The love of the Prophet plays an especially central role in Sufism, and litanies consisting of his names and qualities form an integral part of Sufi practice.

The Mi’raj, or Nocturnal Ascent, of the Prophet is the prototype of all spiritual wayfaring in Islam, and no group in Islamic society has been as conscientious as the Sufis in emulating the Prophet as the perfect saint and what later Sufis were to call the Perfect or Universal Man (al-insan al-kamil).

britannica.com/eb/article-251803/Muhammad

It is interesting that while Islam rejects the Christian belief in Jesus’ divinity, it exalts Muhammad in ways similar to the way Christianity exalts Jesus.

 

[nonsumd]

It is better and advisable if you stick to what you know, not what you assume you know.
I hope that is clear if not let me know, so as I can send you a private message to elucidate for you.

You are a bit slow this has already been addressed in Post #11.
But tell me is: “sign of Contradiction” and “sign which shall be contradicted” the same thing?
Is it not His New Covenant that will bring Controversy?

So is this what you and your colleague FGHIJ are referring to:

Acts of Apostles 28:22
But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest; for as concerning this sect, we know that **it is every where contradicted. **((Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.))

Go on, tell us you are getting your info from JP2 book ‘Sign of Contradiction’ and Wikipedia, do not be shy.
If so, need I say more?

Is this belligerent, hectoring, arrogant tone necessary? Does it make you sound more “Christian”?

What is this meaningless attempt to distinguish “sign of contradiction” from “sign to be contradicted” and how does the quote from Acts contradict what I said?

Do you have a problem with John Paul II? Are you one of those misguided Catholics who are “more Catholic than the Popes” simply because the Popes are more open-minded and peace-loving than you personally would prefer to be? If you lived in the Middle Ages, would you have condemned the Popes for condemning violent persecution of Jews?

 

[nonsumd]

Along the lines of keeping things respectful, we should each of us remember that when we are discussing our neighbor’s religion, we are touching on something – whether Allah, Muhammed, Jesus, Moses… That is so sacred to millions or hundreds of millions of people that they have changed their lives because of these people (or God(s) ). Any comments should therefore be primarily respectful of that fact.

Valke2, thank you for stating what should be obvious to people who claim to be of goodwill.

I was once struck by an atheist colleague who said she got a very bad impression of Jesus from the Gospels - I surmise she was referring to things like the harshness of Jesus’ language about hell. My first reaction was to be appalled that anyone could come up with such an idea of Jesus, but, upon reflection, I realized that there were passages in the Gospels that a non-believer would cringe at.

I, as a Christian, see Jesus with the eyes of my faith, while Muslims see Muslims with the eyes of their faith. I would not accept from a non-Christian an accusation that I do not know the “real Jesus” because I see Jesus’ example guiding when I strive to be a better neighbor to my neighbor. I would never tell a Muslim who asserts that it is Muhammad’s example that guides him in how to be a good person, in how to deal justly and compassionately with others, that he “does not know the real Muhammad.”

 

[nonsumd]

I don’t believe the Jews have accused us of being polytheists as Muslims do!

Is`that perhaps because they hardly ever had the power to punish Christians for blaspheming against the One God as Muslims with their powerful empires did?

The Jewish leadership could not even dispose of the “blasphemer” Jesus themselves and had to hand him over to the Romans to crucify, could they?

We know that when Jews have had the power they have treated polytheists in the same way that Muslims and indeed Christians have – persecuted and exterminated them (though, of course, tolerance of polytheists has also been practiced by Jews, Christians, and Muslims – even when thy did have the power to do otherwise).

When Catholic authorities (likely often converts from Judaism themselves) ordered the Talmud burned for references to Jesus as a blasphemer who deserved to be killed, the Jews made sure to edit out those passages from future copies of the Talmud (this does not change the fact that many Jews consider Jesus to be “their own,” a brilliant rabbi whom Christians have misappropriated as a god).

Jews and Muslims do not differ in what they object to in the core beliefs of Christianity. What is the point of asserting that Jews somehow on a theological level Jews object less to the Trinity and the Incarnation? To justify treating Jews better than Muslims (and that because we --,currently – fear Jews less)?

 

[Montalban]

Is`that perhaps because they hardly ever had the power to punish Christians for blaspheming against the One God as Muslims with their powerful empires did?

They still could accuse us of such.

The Jewish leadership could not even dispose of the “blasphemer” Jesus themselves and had to hand him over to the Romans to crucify, could they?

Well there you go - and the charge wasn’t for polytheism!