Catholicism and many road to the top of the mountain?

[Xpiatio]

A question came up during RCIA class: If the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And knowing that the Church does not explicitly condemn any one to hell. How does the church view pagans, wiccans, new age religions.

The deacon proceeds to explain that we trust in the mercy of God. For all we know, Hitler may be in heaven. We don’t know.

My concern comes from a slippery slope. Wouldn’t it be possible for a person attending the RCIA classes think that one doesn’t have to believe in Jesus for salvation? That there are many roads to the top of the mountain?

 

[robertkchacon]

A question came up during RCIA class: If the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And knowing that the Church does not explicitly condemn any one to hell. How does the church view pagans, wiccans, new age religions.

The deacon proceeds to explain that we trust in the mercy of God. For all we know, Hitler may be in heaven. We don’t know.

My concern comes from a slippery slope. Wouldn’t it be possible for a person attending the RCIA classes think that one doesn’t have to believe in Jesus for salvation? That there are many roads to the top of the mountain?

Thats exactly what has happened to many people , including Catholics! Where they are wrong is that ALL salvation , even for the pagan or non believer, is through Christ, whether they believe OR not! BUT the road to salvation is NARROW, while the path to hell is WIDE!. Due to mans innate desire to know God, the evil of the world and original sin makes it very difficult for our souls to naturally follow Christ in our hearts when we dont know Him explicitly. While salvation for the non believer is possible, one could say that in todays world it may be very unlikely! Its like saying the poor kid who takes the SAT without any exam prep courses could get a 100% score, it virtually never happens!

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Thats exactly what has happened to many people , including Catholics! Where they are wrong is that ALL salvation , even for the pagan or non believer, is through Christ, whether they believe OR not! BUT the road to salvation is NARROW, while the path to hell is WIDE!. Due to mans innate desire to know God, the evil of the world and original sin makes it very difficult for our souls to naturally follow Christ in our hearts when we dont know Him explicitly. While salvation for the non believer is possible, one could say that in todays world it may be very unlikely! Its like saying the poor kid who takes the SAT without any exam prep courses could get a 100% score, it virtually never happens!

Political correctness can even creep into RCIA. Jesus was pretty clear about everything. He left us His commands, His church and the only way to salvation is through Him. We believe him, we follow Him and therefore must follow Him into His church.

 

[Jon_S_1]

A question came up during RCIA class: If the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And knowing that the Church does not explicitly condemn any one to hell. How does the church view pagans, wiccans, new age religions.

The deacon proceeds to explain that we trust in the mercy of God. For all we know, Hitler may be in heaven. We don’t know.

My concern comes from a slippery slope. Wouldn’t it be possible for a person attending the RCIA classes think that one doesn’t have to believe in Jesus for salvation? That there are many roads to the top of the mountain?

The only way to heaven is by believing in Christ and following him. Anything else is speculative at best.

 

[Neofight]

The only way to heaven is by believing in Christ and following him. Anything else is speculative at best.

So the Church teaching on invincible ignorance is wrong?

 

[Neofight]

Political correctness can even creep into RCIA. Jesus was pretty clear about everything. He left us His commands, His church and the only way to salvation is through Him. We believe him, we follow Him and therefore must follow Him into His church.

So, Church teaching on invincible ignorance is contrary to the teaching of Christ?

 

[theoda]

A question came up during RCIA class: If the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And knowing that the Church does not explicitly condemn any one to hell. How does the church view pagans, wiccans, new age religions.

The deacon proceeds to explain that we trust in the mercy of God. For all we know, Hitler may be in heaven. We don’t know.

My concern comes from a slippery slope. Wouldn’t it be possible for a person attending the RCIA classes think that one doesn’t have to believe in Jesus for salvation? That there are many roads to the top of the mountain?

If one deliberately rejects Jesus, then yes. If one is invincibly ignorant, then he can be saved.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

 

[theoda]

So the Church teaching on invincible ignorance is wrong?

Nowadays, however, invincible ignorance is twisted so much that it makes it look like a lot of non-Catholics can go to heaven.

Most people are going to hell unfortunately,

13Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!(Matthew 7:13)

 

[Michael_Mayo]

A question came up during RCIA class: If the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And knowing that the Church does not explicitly condemn any one to hell. How does the church view pagans, wiccans, new age religions.

The deacon proceeds to explain that we trust in the mercy of God. For all we know, Hitler may be in heaven. We don’t know.

My concern comes from a slippery slope. Wouldn’t it be possible for a person attending the RCIA classes think that one doesn’t have to believe in Jesus for salvation? That there are many roads to the top of the mountain?

Salvation is in God’s hands. All we need to be concerned about is sharing the joy of the way we found in christ. All ther rest is beteween an individual and God.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So, Church teaching on invincible ignorance is contrary to the teaching of Christ?

Church teaching on invincible ignorance should not replace the Gospel of Christ. The whole go and make disciples of all nations thing. The whole broad is the road that leads to destruction, the whole salvation is through Christ thing.

Sadly, many erroneously negate the need for Jesus and the Church. Such belief is contrary to church teaching.

Perhaps you are willing to define invincible ignorance?

Invincible ignorance is an ignorance that people have through no fault of their own. A prime example might be someone in North Korea that has never even heard the word Christian.

Even then, the church says they have to be in a state of perfect charity and live for seeking God. How many people are like that?

I highly doubt that anyone in America or the western world can be said to be invincibly ignorant. Ignorant sure, but not invincibly ignorant.

The point ultimately is, it is a mistake to presume many are invincibly ignorant. The sure thing is for people to be Catholic and in a living relationship with Christ.

 

[Neofight]

Nowadays, however, invincible ignorance is twisted so much that it makes it look like a lot of non-Catholics can go to heaven.

Most people are going to hell unfortunately,

13Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!(Matthew 7:13)

I guess its how you look at things.

To your first point:

I think you might have it backwards…not understanding the doctrine is prevalent among Catholics, who feel that if they merely “hearing about” Christ negates the any claim of invincible ignorance…it involves acceptance of the truth also…

To your second point:

“Most people are going to hell unfortunately”? Isn’t that a judgment left to be made only by God?

To your third point:

9He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ 13But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ 14I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Revise(Lk 18:9–14)

Peace and all good!

 

[Jon_S_1]

I guess its how you look at things.

To your first point:

I think you might have it backwards…not understanding the doctrine is prevalent among Catholics, who feel that if they merely “hearing about” Christ negates the any claim of invincible ignorance…it involves acceptance of the truth also…

To your second point:

“Most people are going to hell unfortunately”? Isn’t that a judgment left to be made only by God?

To your third point:

9He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ 13But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ 14I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Revise(Lk 18:9–14)

Peace and all good!

I hope you note that the tax collector, a Jew, prayed to the one God with perfect contrition, and asked forgiveness. Why wouldn’t it be granted him? How does that compare to a secularist saying “I have no need for God”

I’m not sure how you compare that to “everyone goes to heaven” or “many roads lead to the top of the mountain”

 

[Neofight]

Invincible ignorance is an ignorance that people have through no fault of their own. A prime example might be someone in North Korea that has never even heard the word Christian.

Even then, the church says they have to be in a state of perfect charity and live for seeking God. How many people are like that?

I highly doubt that anyone in America or the western world can be said to be invincibly ignorant. Ignorant sure, but not invincibly ignorant.

The point ultimately is, it is a mistake to presume many are invincibly ignorant. The sure thing is for people to be Catholic and in a living relationship with Christ.

It is equally a mistake to presume that many are not invincibly ignorant with the argument that the majority of the world has received the Good News. This argument gives Catholics a false sense of superiority (or salvation), in that they can make erroneous claims such as, “I told that fundamentalist evangelical what the Gospel means based on the Catechism, but he’s not changing his mind, so he’s going to hell!” If the evangelization has not been sufficient to give that person the information needed to come to the truth, they are still protected by invincible ignorance, citing your correct claim about it being “no-fault of their own”…this is more prevalent than in places like N. Korea than you would think, as the same thing can result from ineffective evangelization and catechesis …Catholics who profess their faith, and then leave the Church for other faiths are the ones who are at greater risk.

Peace and all good!

 

[Neofight]

How does that compare to a secularist saying “I have no need for God”

Very Holy men have been known to make the same claim, so its not a matter of a secularist saying it.

Peter a Judas both said it; Peter by believing he could handle things himself without the need of God in his denial of Christ, and Judas in believing his sin was so great he could not be forgiven by God, so he took his own life.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Very Holy men have been known to make the same claim, so its not a matter of a secularist saying it.

Peter a Judas both said it; Peter by believing he could handle things himself without the need of God in his denial of Christ, and Judas in believing his sin was so great he could not be forgiven by God, so he took his own life.

Ok, but that doesn’t mean that in commitment to their error they are saved. If Peter had permanently walked away it would have been very wrong to say “it’s ok he’s probsbly saved”.

If I commit a mortal sin and say “I’m over it, I don’t care any more” it would be very wrong to say “that’s ok, it doesn’t affect your salvation”

We should always tell the truth. The truth is the revealed doctrine of the church. If people don’t listen, then it’s between them and God, but we shouldn’t throw are hands up and be lazy and politically correct and act like their rejection of truth is acceptable. No one knows their level of ignorance, not even the individual. As such why should we not presume that they are not ignorant and try and bring them into the fold?

It’s like a doctor looks at a CT scan and sees something wrong. Should he pretend like it’s nothing because it may not really be cancer and the person may be ok.

Or should he presume it’s csncer and do all he can to cure it or rule out that it is or isn’t cancer.

 

[theoda]

I guess its how you look at things.

To your first point:

I think you might have it backwards…not understanding the doctrine is prevalent among Catholics, who feel that if they merely “hearing about” Christ negates the any claim of invincible ignorance…it involves acceptance of the truth also…

To your second point:

“Most people are going to hell unfortunately”? Isn’t that a judgment left to be made only by God?

To your third point:

9He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ 13But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ 14I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Revise(Lk 18:9–14)

Peace and all good!

The reason why I believe melt people twist invincible ignorance is that most people will try to say that some famous person could enter heaven even though they were exposed to the Catholic faith. I’ve seen it a lot. This leads to my second point.

I believe most people are going to hell than heaven because the saints believe it.

Saint Gregory saying clearly, "Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom."
Saint Anselm declares There are few who are saved."
Saint Augustine states even more clearly, “**Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.” **

The most terrifying, however, is Saint Jerome. At the end of his life, in the presence of his disciples, he spoke these dreadful words: “**Out of one hundred thousand people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely one who is worthy of indulgence.”
**

 

[theoda]

‘Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.’
Luke 13:23-24

‘For many are called, but few chosen.’
Mark 20:16

‘Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.’
St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church

‘The saved are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are: yet amongst those few I wish to be!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘If you would be quite sure of your salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few. Do not follow the majority of mankind, but follow those who renounce the world and never relax their efforts day or night so that they may attain everlasting blessedness.’
St. Anselm, Doctor of the Church

‘A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever. According to statistics, approximately 80,000 persons die every day. How many of these will die in mortal sin, and how many will be condemned! For, as their lives have been, so also will be their end.’
St. Anthony Mary Claret

‘For thus it shall be in the midst of the earth, in the midst of the people, as though a few olives that remain should be shaken out of the olive tree, or grapes when the vintage is ended.’
Isaias 24:13

‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’
St. Augustine, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘All would wish to be saved and to enjoy the glory of paradise; but to gain heaven, it is necessary to walk in the straight road that leads to eternal bliss. This road is the observance of the divine commandments. Hence, in his preaching, the Baptist exclaimed: Make straight the way of the Lord.’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

‘Our chronicles relate an even more dreadful happening. One of our brothers, well-known for his doctrine and holiness, was preaching in Germany. He represented the ugliness of the sin of impurity so forceful that a woman fell dead of sorrow in front of everyone. Then, coming back to life, she said, "When I was presented before the Tribunal of God, sixty thousand people arrived at the same time from all parts of the world; out of that number, three were saved by going to Purgatory, and all the rest were damned.’
St. Leonard of Port Maurice

‘That those who walk in the way of salvation are the smaller number is due to the vice and depraved habits imbibed in youth and nourished in childhood. By these means Lucifer has hurled into Hell so great a number of souls, and continues thus to hurl them into Hell every day, casting so many nations from abyss to abyss of darkness and errors, such as are contained in the heresies and false sects of the infidels.’
Ven. Mary of Agreda

‘We owe God a deep regret of gratitude for the purely gratuitous gift of the true faith with which he has favored us. How many are the infidels, heretics and schismatic who do not enjoy comparable happiness? The earth is full of them and they are all lost!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘I exhort you, therefore, not to faint in your afflictions, but to be revived by God’s love, and to add daily to your zeal, knowing that in you ought to be preserved that remnant of true religion which the Lord will find when He comes on the earth. Even if bishops are driven from their Churches, be not dismayed. If traitors have arisen from among the very clergy themselves, let not this undermine your confidence in God. We are saved not by names, but by mind and purpose, and genuine love toward our Creator. Bethink you how in the attack against our Lord, high priests and scribes and elders devised the plot, and how few of the people were found really receiving the word. Remember that it is not the multitude who are being saved, but the elect of God. Be not then affrighted at the great multitude of the people who are carried hither and thither by winds like the waters of the sea. If but one be saved, like Lot at Sodom, he ought to abide in right judgment, keeping his hope in Christ unshaken, for the Lord will not forsake His holy ones. Salute all the brethren in Christ from me. Pray earnestly for my miserable soul.’
St. Basil the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

 

[Neofight]

‘Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.’
Luke 13:23-24

‘For many are called, but few chosen.’
Mark 20:16

‘Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.’
St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church

‘The saved are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are: yet amongst those few I wish to be!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘If you would be quite sure of your salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few. Do not follow the majority of mankind, but follow those who renounce the world and never relax their efforts day or night so that they may attain everlasting blessedness.’
St. Anselm, Doctor of the Church

‘A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever. According to statistics, approximately 80,000 persons die every day. How many of these will die in mortal sin, and how many will be condemned! For, as their lives have been, so also will be their end.’
St. Anthony Mary Claret

‘For thus it shall be in the midst of the earth, in the midst of the people, as though a few olives that remain should be shaken out of the olive tree, or grapes when the vintage is ended.’
Isaias 24:13

‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’
St. Augustine, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘All would wish to be saved and to enjoy the glory of paradise; but to gain heaven, it is necessary to walk in the straight road that leads to eternal bliss. This road is the observance of the divine commandments. Hence, in his preaching, the Baptist exclaimed: Make straight the way of the Lord.’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

‘Our chronicles relate an even more dreadful happening. One of our brothers, well-known for his doctrine and holiness, was preaching in Germany. He represented the ugliness of the sin of impurity so forceful that a woman fell dead of sorrow in front of everyone. Then, coming back to life, she said, "When I was presented before the Tribunal of God, sixty thousand people arrived at the same time from all parts of the world; out of that number, three were saved by going to Purgatory, and all the rest were damned.’
St. Leonard of Port Maurice

‘That those who walk in the way of salvation are the smaller number is due to the vice and depraved habits imbibed in youth and nourished in childhood. By these means Lucifer has hurled into Hell so great a number of souls, and continues thus to hurl them into Hell every day, casting so many nations from abyss to abyss of darkness and errors, such as are contained in the heresies and false sects of the infidels.’
Ven. Mary of Agreda

‘We owe God a deep regret of gratitude for the purely gratuitous gift of the true faith with which he has favored us. How many are the infidels, heretics and schismatic who do not enjoy comparable happiness? The earth is full of them and they are all lost!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘I exhort you, therefore, not to faint in your afflictions, but to be revived by God’s love, and to add daily to your zeal, knowing that in you ought to be preserved that remnant of true religion which the Lord will find when He comes on the earth. Even if bishops are driven from their Churches, be not dismayed. If traitors have arisen from among the very clergy themselves, let not this undermine your confidence in God. We are saved not by names, but by mind and purpose, and genuine love toward our Creator. Bethink you how in the attack against our Lord, high priests and scribes and elders devised the plot, and how few of the people were found really receiving the word. Remember that it is not the multitude who are being saved, but the elect of God. Be not then affrighted at the great multitude of the people who are carried hither and thither by winds like the waters of the sea. If but one be saved, like Lot at Sodom, he ought to abide in right judgment, keeping his hope in Christ unshaken, for the Lord will not forsake His holy ones. Salute all the brethren in Christ from me. Pray earnestly for my miserable soul.’
St. Basil the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

However, if all those scriptures cited are read in the spiritual sense (anagogical, specifically…see CCC 117), and not just as literal statements, we find they are teachings directed to guide us as individuals to ensure our personal salvation, rather than to judge the “many” or “majority” of souls we personally think are hell bound.

Peace and all good!

 

[Jon_S_1]

However, if all those scriptures cited are read in the spiritual sense (anagogical, specifically…see CCC 117), and not just as literal statements, we find they are teachings directed to guide us as individuals to ensure our personal salvation, rather than to judge the “many” or “majority” of souls we personally think are hell bound.

Peace and all good!

Do if they are meant to direct our personal salvation, what does that say about those who don’t use them to direct their salvation?

In other words, why bother having a direction to salvation?

 

[theoda]

However, if all those scriptures cited are read in the spiritual sense (anagogical, specifically…see CCC 117), and not just as literal statements, we find they are teachings directed to guide us as individuals to ensure our personal salvation, rather than to judge the “many” or “majority” of souls we personally think are hell bound.

Peace and all good!

True, however there weren’t just scripture quotes. There were quotes by saints that were very clear.

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

This a sermon given by a saint that talks about the few that are saved. The numbers are very scary.