Catholicism and Orthodoxy

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narrowpath

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I’m almost ready to swim the Tiber, and become catholic (Roman rite). But the last thing I need to do is investigate Eastern Orthodoxy. Can anyone recommend any good resources? I’d love a dialogue between an Eastern Catholic and an EO. But other resources would be good too.

Thank you all!😃

As I understand it, the main issues are, the Authority of the Pope, the Filioque, and original sin (and so the immaculate conception of the Theotokos). Do I have this right?

One other question.

How do EO respond to Matthew 16:18 where Christ clearly says “You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my Church.”
 
I can’t speak for the Orthodox view on the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. However, I am a revert to the Catholic faith after many years of wandering. When I came back, I found the Latin Rite had changed too much for me and I began investigating the Orthodox faith with its beautiful divine liturgy. However, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome was a major stumbling block for me leaving the Catholic faith & joining an Orthodox parish. I was very happy to find a Byzantine Catholic Church in my area that is Orthodox in liturgy & spirituality, yet remains in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
 
That is why, though I am a traditionalist concerning Roman Catholicism, and I like the Extraordinary form of the Mass, I would call for a purge of any Latinization of Eastern Catholicism.

Another note:

I have been reading about the EO theology concrning the crucifixion. In the west, the common view is that Christ died as a substitue for us, as we could not pay the price.

But i the east, it seems to be more that satan took humans justly, and then Christ came. The devil killed Him, however, unjustly. Jesus then was the only one who was able to demand compensation, exposing satan as a liar and a fraud, and death as a dictatorship, and He can then receive the souls of the saved, almost in compensation, as it were.

Do Eastern Catholics tend more toward the EO view?

Also, are both compatible with the Catholic Church’s teaching? It would seem that they would not be.

Under the Catholic view, christs death was unjust IN ITSELF, as He was innocent, but it was just as a sacrifice for the sinners redempton.

But under the EO view, it is BECAUSE the Crucifixion is unjust that Christ can demand the sous of the redeemed in compensation.

I also got this from an EO site:

**A. Deviations in the realm of worship

a. The celebration of Easter

The First Oecumenical Synod made it an eternal and inviolable condition that Christian Easter should be celebrated after the Passover of the Jews. The Western Church disregards this ruling. And this transgression begets another. It sometimes happens that they celebrate Christian Easter on the same day as the Jewish Passover is being celebrated. This is explicitly forbidden by Canon Seven of the Holy Apostles.

The Orthodox Church, however, remains loyal to tradition.
**

Is this true?
 
narrowpath,

John Meyendorff wrote two books that are very good. The first is called Christ in Eastern Christian Thought. It is a very good introduction to Christology as understood from a Byzantine perspective. It discusses briefly the concept of Original Sin as I have been trying to explain on the other thread. The second book is Byzantine Theology. This one explains the trends and developments in Byzantine theology. Both of these books are very detailed because they are discussing the history of doctrine and so they explain the contributions of various Byzantine writers but they are well worth reading if you don’t mind the detail. They give a very good understanding of Byzantine theology. The whole of Byzantine theology is based on the Chalcedonian definition and these books explain theology in that context.
 
I could be completely off-base, but after many conversations with an Orthodox lector, who is a great friend of mine, I’ve come to the conclusion that the idea of Original Sin is the same, just expressed in different ways.

Basically, Original Sin, is a state without grace. It’s not something that the holder has committed. Think of it as if you had this inheritance that would be yours if your grandfather didn’t spend it all on some foolish project. We, similarly could have inherited that state of grace we receive in baptism as inheritance had our ancestors not squandered it. Orthodox will say that don’t believe in original sin in the same way, but if you give that above definition both faiths will pretty much agree with that description as long as you don’t use any “buzz” words.
 
John Meyendorff also is the editor of The Primacy of Peter, a collection of essays written by Eastern Orthodox on the question of Peter. A very good book if one wants an Orthodox perspective on the matter.
 
Start with THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy Ware (now Metropolitan Kallistos).
 
davymax3 said:
I could be completely off-base, but after many conversations with an Orthodox lector, who is a great friend of mine, I’ve come to the conclusion that the idea of Original Sin is the same, just expressed in different ways.

Basically, Original Sin, is a state without grace. It’s not something that the holder has committed. Think of it as if you had this inheritance that would be yours if your grandfather didn’t spend it all on some foolish project. We, similarly could have inherited that state of grace we receive in baptism as inheritance had our ancestors not squandered it. Orthodox will say that don’t believe in original sin in the same way, but if you give that above definition both faiths will pretty much agree with that description as long as you don’t use any “buzz” words.
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I agree.
 
Dear brother narrowpath,
narrowpath said:
In the west, the common view is that Christ died as a substitue for us, as we could not pay the price.
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This is also exactly what I was taught as a Coptic Orthodox. It is the general view of Oriental Orthodoxy. I gave hierarchical statements on the matter (from OO hierarchs) in another thread many months back, but as this thread is not about the OO, then I will refrain from posting it, unless you are interested.
Do Eastern Catholics tend more toward the EO view?
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That would be a sensible conclusion.
Also, are both compatible with the Catholic Church’s teaching? It would seem that they would not be.
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Can you please exactly explain what you mean? There does not seem to be anything inherently contradictory in your forthcoming explanation.
Under the Catholic view, christs death was unjust IN ITSELF, as He was innocent, but it was just as a sacrifice for the sinners redempton.

But under the EO view, it is BECAUSE the Crucifixion is unjust that Christ can demand the sous of the redeemed in compensation.
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Christ’s Sacrifice is seen in both paradigms as the redemption of humanity. What more is there to understand about the Mystery? I think anyone who wants to make any other distinction on the matter is free to do so, but it would not thereby give them the authority to divide the Church on the issue.

**A. Deviations in the realm of worship

a. The celebration of Easter

The First Oecumenical Synod made it an eternal and inviolable condition that Christian Easter should be celebrated after the Passover of the Jews. The Western Church disregards this ruling. And this transgression begets another. It sometimes happens that they celebrate Christian Easter on the same day as the Jewish Passover is being celebrated. This is explicitly forbidden by Canon Seven of the Holy Apostles.

The Orthodox Church, however, remains loyal to tradition.
**
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I have not investigated the matter fully, but it seems to me that the real deviation would be to use the matter as a point of division. St. Paul specifically taught us not to use the observance Feast days as a basis for discord and disunity. Who should we follow, St. Paul or …? I believe it was in the spirit of St. Paul when Pope St. Victor was exhorted to not excommunicate the Eastern Churches for not celebrating Easter on exactly the same day as the Latins. What authority would such EO have to place further burderns and stumbling blocks to unity? And then THEY (at least those particular EO) accuse the Catholics of legalism???

In any case, I do believe the Jews celebrate passover on Saturday. The Church’s Feast day is on Sunday. So technically there is no violation.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I think the problem is more that the Western Church (apparently) fell into heresy after departing from a defined dogma that the Church would celebrate on this date.

But does this really meet all the standards for a dogma?

On wikipeiait says that the council decided that Easter must fall on a sunday, to be determined by the Church, but not on the exact date on the Julian Calendar.

The issue seemed more to be independence from the Jewish Calendar.
 
Madaglan said:
John Meyendorff also is the editor of The Primacy of Peter, a collection of essays written by Eastern Orthodox on the question of Peter. A very good book if one wants an Orthodox perspective on the matter.
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I would also suggest Olivier Celement, You Are Peter. It is short and readable.

For Church history from an Orthodox perspective, I would suggest Alexander Schmemann, The Historical Road of Eastern Orthodoxy. Joe
 
This really is not the forum for this… Eastern Catholics are Catholics, and as such aren’t really your “go to” or catch all forum for other Easterners who are not Catholic.

Can we get this moved?
 
I also highly recommend the book “Church, Papacy and Schism. A theological perspective” by Philip Sherrard.

John
 
As another poster stated, the proper forum for questions about Orthodoxy is the Non-Catholic Religions board.

That being said, I am a revert to to the Catholic Church, having converted to Orthodoxy two years ago. I have come to realize that what I found attractive about the Orthodox faith was the Divine Liturgy–which the Catholic Church, in her wisdom, provides us through the Eastern Rites of the Church. We attend a Byzantine-Ruthenian church and I have yet to attend a Latin-Rite Mass which touches me as deeply as the Divine Liturgy. But that is my experience of the faith. Others are drawn to the Novus Ordo or the Extraordinary Form.

Most of the converts we met in the Orthodox church had converted from other churches because they were seeking more dignified, respectful forms of worship.

I don’t feel my time in the Orthodox church was wasted; without it, I would not have found the Eastern Catholic Church, which in my opinion is the best of both worlds. 😃
 
samcarter14 said:
As another poster stated, the proper forum for questions about Orthodoxy is the Non-Catholic Religions board.
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The OP’s question is about him choosing between the two churches, so this is the perfect spot I think. Also, I would find it insulting for an Orthodox question to be put in a Non-Catholic board. Orthodoxy is a Catholic religion. A Non-Roman Catholic board, sure…
 
I have expressed objections to seeing the Orthodox Church lumped in with Mormons, Protestants, and even non-Christian religions such as Islam on the “Non-Catholic Religions” board to no avail.l
 
prodromos said:
The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware
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As an newly-chrismated Orthodox Christian, I would also recommend this book. It shows the history of the first 1000 years of the church from an Orthodox perspective. And it doesn’t stay just one sided when it talks about the east-west schism, admitting the faults from both sides of the matter. But since it is written from an Orthodox writer (now bishop), it obviously sides with Orthodoxy. The book also explains the last 1000 years of the Orthodox church, Orthodox beliefs, and analyzes the dialogues between the Orthodox and other churches (including the Catholic church). It’s not a long read and I would definitely recommend it. And by the way, it was written before Bishop KALLISTOS was a bishop so look for it under the name Timothy Ware.
 
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