I
Incomplete
Guest
In my earlier post I mentioned that early Christians saw the Real Presence in Scripture. Manualman’s post is what I actually meant to say.
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Hail_Linus
Guest
One the thing that kept me from being Protestant was Justification by Faith alone. As I stated on another post, I was watching Joel Osteen a lot and he really inspired me to read the bible. I started seriously study the Bible and I did not see Sola Fide.
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fred_conty
Guest
Hi,
It seems to me just thru observation here in these threads that whether or not a protestant denomination believes in the real presense depends on whether they have some sort of priesthood in their church. If they don’t, then they probably will only believe the Eucharist is a symbol and not the real presense. And it would make sense, since it takes a priest to bring about the change. So when they say it is only a symbol, for them it is right.
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ephesians2
Guest
Actually, I think you are confusing the Roman Catholics view of Sanctification and the Protestant view of Justification. Protestants are declared justified by God through God’s grace alone, through the merits of Christ alone and they are sanctified by the Holy Spirit the moment they are justified. Sanctification is a process in which the justified person is daily brought closer to the likeness of Christ by the Holy Spirit, through the obedience to Gods word. So a Prtoestant believes in justification by faith, through Gods grace, but if you are living a life of complete rejection of Gods word, you most likely havent been justified in the first place.
I
Incomplete
Guest
While you’re right that for them it is only a symbol, they believe that for us it is only a symbol as well. Note the poster who said the idea of the Real Presence leaves him scratching his head as he asks if there is any scriptural support.
J
Jedimonk
Guest
I just don’t like Protestants because they’re so tall.
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ESMDHokie77
Guest
speak for yourself, I’m a 6’7" soldier for Holy Mother Church!
J
Joshua_Shorter
Guest
As someone that was born and raised Protestant, I still go to a Protestant church, I think this is the biggest problem with Protestantism. They think they are the sole authority on discerning the meaning of Holy Scripture. They have, in essence, made themselves little popes. There is no agreement and that is why there are so many different Protestant churches that all teach different things. It is so frustrating when the truth is so close.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The most important “gap” being excercised these past 2000 years, between protestants and Catholics is the “binding and loosing” authority, and Who possesses the “Keys to the Kingdom of God” on earth in order to “bind and loose”.
I believe this biblical divine authority on earth to exercise the Keys of the kingdom of heaven in the binding and loosing, which Jesus gives to his Church on earth personally can only exist in the body of believers that has survived the first 400 years of persecution to today in the Catholic Church. Protestantism 1600 years later removed herself from the already existing Catholic Church, upon which Jesus began building upon our first Pope Peter (see Matthew 16:14-17, John 21:14-17).
Peace be with you
J
Joshua_Shorter
Guest
I would say the question of authority also goes back to the Protestant beliefs about divine revelation. Most Protestants believe in the Bible as the sole inspired work of God. This allows them to take things out of context, phrase Bible verses to meet their agendas and form their own beliefs. I think it is so important to acknowledge all of the ways God has revealed Himself to us.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
I think there’s a distinction that needs to be made between knocking on other people’s doors, and answering your own door when someone else knocks. Coming to a Catholic discussion forum and discussing Catholic teaching with Catholics is going to sound like evangelization, whether it is intended as such or not. On the other hand, coming to a Catholic discussion board to convince Catholics they are just “wrong” is the kind of sheep-stealing that I think the earlier posters were saying is misguided. That being said, I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this thread (Catholic or Protestant).This Protestant has an issue with that too. I don’t understand wasting missionary effort into making people who are already Christians into “our kind” of Christians, when there are still so many people out there in the world who’ve never heard the gospel at all. That applies whether it’s Protestants trying win converts from Catholics, or Orthodox, or whether it’s the other way 'round, i.e. Catholics trying to convince Protestants to join them, as happens so much here.
Peace,
Robert
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
Hello DM;
I would echo some of the other posters by clarifying that I have no problem with “Protestants.” I also married a protestant, although she is no longer protestant now. I have charitable disagreements with Protestants over a number of doctrinal issues, but I think it’s important to start any discussion by first acknowledging that Catholics and Protestants have more points of unity than they have disagreements. That being said, my biggest “head scratchers” when it comes to understanding the protestant point of view include:
(1) Sola fide (faith alone). It seems to be an over-reaction to the fear of falling into a “works based” conception of salvation. The Catholic Church begins right alongside Protestantism that our faith justifies us, but also acknowledges the long Tradition and Bibilcal teaching that works also play a role in salvation. I don’t see how Protestants can have such a “blind spot” (my opinion) when it comes to discussing how works play a role in salvation.
(2) Sola scriptura (bible alone). In my opinion, it seems that once one divorces from the Tradition and Authority of the Catholic Church, if one wants to remain a christian all that is left is the bible alone, it seems to me that Protestants hyper-rationalize their decision when they reject the first 1500 years of Christianity and then cling to the bible alone, as if it fell to earth from heaven, complete and translated into the King’s English. If one looks at history to study where the protestant bible came from, it seems to me that is a strong argument in favor of the Authority of the Catholic Church.
There are other, lesser issues. But for me these are the two “biggies.”
Peace,
Robert
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Just to clairify the Church teaches we are SAVED by GRACE. The Church does not teach works SAVE (Protestant jargon). Works are necessary and of value only AFTER one is SAVED, otherwise it is DEAD FAITH (faith alone). James tells us FAITH ALONE is DEAD FAITH and does not save.
Jms2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jms2:17 Even so FAITH, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE spirit IS DEAD, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.
[Tutus3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou AFFIRM CONSTANTLY, that **they which have believed in God might BE CARFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and PROFITABLE UNTO MEN.]
2Pt1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue and to virtue knowledge 6 And to knowledge temperance and to temperance patience and to patience godliness 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that LACKETH THESE THINGS is BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath FORGOTTEN that HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to MAKE YOUR calling and ELECTION SURE for IF YE DO THESE THINGS, ye shall never fall. [Peter says we need to add to faith so we wont be barren, unfruitful, blind or fall, in other words dead faith=faith ALONE, as James tells us, faith without works is dead. We will be judged by our WORKS.]
CONTINUED:]
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jlhargus
Guest
CONTINUED:
JL: The Church teaches justification and sanctification are an on going process, starting with the initial free unmerited gift of God’s GRACE. Scripture tells us we will be judged by our WORKS.
[1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:]
Hb5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto **all them that obey him **
Rev 22:12 And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according **as his work shall be **[If faith alone should read, “according as his faith alone”, but scripture says, every man, according as his work=deeds.
2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be **GOOD OR BAD [If faith alone should read, before the judgement seat that everyone may receive according to faith alone, but scripture says “everyone may receive according to that he has done=deeds”.]
1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear [If faith alone, should read, “judgeth according to every man’s faith alone”. But scripture says, judgeth according to every man’s man’s work=deeds.]
Mt7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them [If faith alone, should read, “by their faith alone”, but scripture says by their fruits=deeds.]
Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but **he that doeth the will of my Father **which is in heaven [If faith alone, should read, “but he that has faith alone”, but scripture says he that doeth=deeds.]
Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and **doeth them **I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock [If faith alone, should read, “has faith alone”, but scripture says whosoever doeth=deeds.]
Mt16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay every man **for what he has done **[If faith alone, should read, “for his faith alone”, but scripture says for what he has done=deeds.]
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them. [If faith alone, should read, “their faith alone follows them. Scriptures says their works follow them.]
[Jn5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man. 28 Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, 29 and they shall come forth; THOSE WHO **DID THE GOOD THINGS to A RISING again OF LIFE, and THOSE WHO PRACTISED the EVIL THINGS to A RISING again OF JUDGMENT.]
I have found no scripture that says we will be judged by Jesus’ deeds or perfect righteousness or faith alone=dead faith, nor none where faith alone, is even mentioned in the judgement.
JL: The Church teaches justification and sanctification are an on going process, starting with the initial free unmerited gift of God’s GRACE. Scripture tells us we will be judged by our WORKS.
[1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:]
Hb5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto **all them that obey him **
Rev 22:12 And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according **as his work shall be **[If faith alone should read, “according as his faith alone”, but scripture says, every man, according as his work=deeds.
2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be **GOOD OR BAD [If faith alone should read, before the judgement seat that everyone may receive according to faith alone, but scripture says “everyone may receive according to that he has done=deeds”.]
1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear [If faith alone, should read, “judgeth according to every man’s faith alone”. But scripture says, judgeth according to every man’s man’s work=deeds.]
Mt7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them [If faith alone, should read, “by their faith alone”, but scripture says by their fruits=deeds.]
Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but **he that doeth the will of my Father **which is in heaven [If faith alone, should read, “but he that has faith alone”, but scripture says he that doeth=deeds.]
Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and **doeth them **I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock [If faith alone, should read, “has faith alone”, but scripture says whosoever doeth=deeds.]
Mt16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay every man **for what he has done **[If faith alone, should read, “for his faith alone”, but scripture says for what he has done=deeds.]
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them. [If faith alone, should read, “their faith alone follows them. Scriptures says their works follow them.]
[Jn5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man. 28 Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, 29 and they shall come forth; THOSE WHO **DID THE GOOD THINGS to A RISING again OF LIFE, and THOSE WHO PRACTISED the EVIL THINGS to A RISING again OF JUDGMENT.]
I have found no scripture that says we will be judged by Jesus’ deeds or perfect righteousness or faith alone=dead faith, nor none where faith alone, is even mentioned in the judgement.
J
jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by Link0126
Also sanctification, catholics believe we are made righteous by God, protestants think we are simply declared righteous by God.
Intrinsic justification, opposed to extrinsic justification.
Infused intrinsic justification, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, renews one from within and we share in the life of God. Intrinsic justificaton, causes an actual internal change in a persons heart and regenerates (brings to life thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) man’s spiritually dead soul (spirit, intellect or whatever you want to call it), so now the soul is set free from being a slave of the flesh and rules over the flesh. Whereas in Adam (sin) man is a slave of the flesh and the flesh rules, over a spiritually dead soul. With God’s grace, the life of Christ is now in us.
When born again by water AND of the Spirit in baptism we come out of Adam and are born again into Christ, sharers of divine life, 1Cor15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST shall all be MADE ALIVE. 1Jn1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. Rv1:5…Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (we are washed, cleansed of sin, made righteous. We are not just a covered over dunghill, or just declared innocent, but actually made innocent, righteous, washed and cleansed in baptism thru the blood of Christ. Rm6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcised, but a new creature. (God the Father is not just seeing Christ thru rose colored glasses, but seeing a clean heart were Christ can and does abide, he cannot abide in an unclean heart).
Imputed does not mean we only appear externally (extrinsic) righteous to God, but are also internally (intrinsic) made righteous. We are not just declared (extrinsic) righteous as a judge declares us innocent, when we are really guilty, and become a covered over dunghill, the same old unchanged heart and sinner inside, still having the same old sinful nature and dead soul.
We are made righteous, (intrinsic justification). [Rm5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be MADE RIGHTEOUS.] So just as mankind inherits the sin of Adam and the soul is dead in sin, we also inherit righteousness, and the soul comes alive in Christ. We become an actual child of God, we share his life and nature, by union with Christ, the Trinity living in us. We do not produce or earn righteousness, of ourself, but we can grow in co-operation with grace, in well doing, in righteousness=justification and holiness=sanctification. When we sin (mortal sin) God’s presents cannot remain in us, because, we are no longer righteous (clean of heart) but sinners, the soul dies, because Christ our life has been rejected and must depart, by our deliberate intention and action to choose sin over God.
[Col2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcised of your sinful nature, God MADE YOU ALIVE with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.] In baptism Christ circumcises our hearts, cutting away, spiritually, the carnal flesh that collects filth around the heart just as natural circumcision cuts away the flesh where filth collects, thereby making it clean.
Sources: This Rock Magazine
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9412vrs.asp Infused grace
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108chap.asp Righteousness done right, imputed or imparted
catholic.com/library/grace_what_it_is.asp What does grace do
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9501vbv.asp Intrinsic justification
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109chap.asp Is Justification ongoing
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9402vbv.asp What part do good works play in salvation
Also sanctification, catholics believe we are made righteous by God, protestants think we are simply declared righteous by God.
Intrinsic justification, opposed to extrinsic justification.
Infused intrinsic justification, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, renews one from within and we share in the life of God. Intrinsic justificaton, causes an actual internal change in a persons heart and regenerates (brings to life thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) man’s spiritually dead soul (spirit, intellect or whatever you want to call it), so now the soul is set free from being a slave of the flesh and rules over the flesh. Whereas in Adam (sin) man is a slave of the flesh and the flesh rules, over a spiritually dead soul. With God’s grace, the life of Christ is now in us.
When born again by water AND of the Spirit in baptism we come out of Adam and are born again into Christ, sharers of divine life, 1Cor15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST shall all be MADE ALIVE. 1Jn1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. Rv1:5…Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (we are washed, cleansed of sin, made righteous. We are not just a covered over dunghill, or just declared innocent, but actually made innocent, righteous, washed and cleansed in baptism thru the blood of Christ. Rm6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcised, but a new creature. (God the Father is not just seeing Christ thru rose colored glasses, but seeing a clean heart were Christ can and does abide, he cannot abide in an unclean heart).
Imputed does not mean we only appear externally (extrinsic) righteous to God, but are also internally (intrinsic) made righteous. We are not just declared (extrinsic) righteous as a judge declares us innocent, when we are really guilty, and become a covered over dunghill, the same old unchanged heart and sinner inside, still having the same old sinful nature and dead soul.
We are made righteous, (intrinsic justification). [Rm5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be MADE RIGHTEOUS.] So just as mankind inherits the sin of Adam and the soul is dead in sin, we also inherit righteousness, and the soul comes alive in Christ. We become an actual child of God, we share his life and nature, by union with Christ, the Trinity living in us. We do not produce or earn righteousness, of ourself, but we can grow in co-operation with grace, in well doing, in righteousness=justification and holiness=sanctification. When we sin (mortal sin) God’s presents cannot remain in us, because, we are no longer righteous (clean of heart) but sinners, the soul dies, because Christ our life has been rejected and must depart, by our deliberate intention and action to choose sin over God.
[Col2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcised of your sinful nature, God MADE YOU ALIVE with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.] In baptism Christ circumcises our hearts, cutting away, spiritually, the carnal flesh that collects filth around the heart just as natural circumcision cuts away the flesh where filth collects, thereby making it clean.
Sources: This Rock Magazine
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9412vrs.asp Infused grace
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108chap.asp Righteousness done right, imputed or imparted
catholic.com/library/grace_what_it_is.asp What does grace do
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9501vbv.asp Intrinsic justification
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109chap.asp Is Justification ongoing
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9402vbv.asp What part do good works play in salvation
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
[If faith alone should read, before the judgement seat that everyone may receive according to faith alone, but scripture says “everyone may receive according to that he has done=deeds”.]
1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear [If faith alone, should read, “judgeth according to every man’s faith alone”. But scripture says, judgeth according to every man’s man’s work=deeds.]
Mt7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them [If faith alone, should read, “by their faith alone”, but scripture says by their fruits=deeds.]
Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but **he that doeth the will of my Father **which is in heaven [If faith alone, should read, “but he that has faith alone”, but scripture says he that doeth=deeds.]
Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and **doeth them **I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock [If faith alone, should read, “has faith alone”, but scripture says whosoever doeth=deeds.]
Mt16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay every man **for what he has done **[If faith alone, should read, “for his faith alone”, but scripture says for what he has done=deeds.]
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them. [If faith alone, should read, “their faith alone follows them. Scriptures says their works follow them.]
[Jn5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man. 28 Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, 29 and they shall come forth; THOSE WHO **DID THE GOOD THINGS to A RISING again OF LIFE, and THOSE WHO PRACTISED the EVIL THINGS to A RISING again OF JUDGMENT.]
I have found no scripture that says we will be judged by Jesus’ deeds or perfect righteousness or faith alone=dead faith, nor none where faith alone, is even mentioned in the judgement.
Sounds good to me.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The difference in authority derives from its inception. The Catholic Church can trace her God given authority back to the apostles and Jesus from whom the Keys were given. Protestantism protests this divine authority in the Catholic Church and claims its own authority from mans freedom, thus protestantism derives its authority from mans freedom to interpret Sola Scriptura, not from what was revealed by Jesus.
Its interesting that Christianity which followed Apostles and their successors in the Catholic Church, since the resurrection derived her authority from the Church since scripture teaches the Church is the “pillar and foundation of Truth” (see 1 Timothy 3:15).
When there was no canonized bible yet for the first 400 years after the resurrection. So a Sola Scriptura theology never existed for the first 1600 years after the resurrection,until the reformation, which becomes a man made “Sola Scriptura” teaching, never a divine teaching revealed by Jesus, nor ever taught by the apostles.
When protestants placed Sola Scriptura as there governing authority, it appears that they removed or protested against the authority Jesus established in His Church. So that man now in the freedom of Sola Scriptura can interpret the memoirs of the revelations, recorded from Sacred Scripture, subjecting God’s Word to mans own wind of doctrines, not from God already revealed.
For the Church came before the bible (new testament), the bible records what was given to the Church so as to reveal the revelations of God to humanity in every age. The bible cannot do this alone without bringing about “Chaos”.
For the Word of God is living and good for teaching and reproof. Jesus commanded Peter and the apostles to teach and that the Holy Spirit will come to them to remind and reveal the mysteries of God.
Thus we have the divine revelations or “Infallibility” which is the protection the Holy Spirit gives to the Church from teaching error. Protestantism does not have this revelation from God in its biblical interpretations, other than the ones protestants held to from its break away from Catholicism.
If man depended on the bible “which the Catholic Church canonized” only to reveal Truth, then this man made theology contrdicts the bible which records always, God revealing a patriarch, king, prophet, messiahs, angels, apostles, episcopates = bishops teaching the message of God to His people, never the bible alone.
Sola Scriptura lacks a body, for the Word of God took on a body and this body is the Catholic Church which is the body of Christ, who is our head. Sola Scriptura by itself is dead, because it is left to man to interpret Sola Scriptura who returns to dust.
Sola Scriptura makes a false impression that man alone can hear and interpet God by mans own inclination, inspiration or enlightenment. These are gifts of the spirit not the revelations of God to be interpreted, because even the devil can come disguised as an angel of light.
Peace be with you
L
Link0126
Guest
.]
2Pt1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue and to virtue knowledge 6 And to knowledge temperance and to temperance patience and to patience godliness 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that LACKETH THESE THINGS is BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath FORGOTTEN that HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to MAKE YOUR calling and ELECTION SURE for IF YE DO THESE THINGS, ye shall never fall. [Peter says we need to add to faith so we wont be barren, unfruitful, blind or fall, in other words dead faith=faith ALONE, as James tells us, faith without works is dead. We will be judged by our WORKS.]
CONTINUED:]
Yes, I know we are saved by Grace. My point was Catholics do not believe in Faith Alone but believe that good works are necessary. Whereas Protestants believe in Faith Alone and that good works are meaningless to one’s salvation. And yes, works are part of our justification “was not Abraham justified after offering up his Son Isaac on the Altar?”… James specifically says Abraham was justified by works.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Sorry Link, I miss read your post.
E
ephesians2
Guest
Yes, I do not recall any of my Protestant friends talking about “1%”, Christ did it all according to them, but if their lives do not show anything for it, if they are not living out their faith in their daily lives, then that’s when it becomes a problem.
I know what they believe on “total depravity” but what is OSAS?
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