L
Link0126
Guest
Once Saved Always Saved. Or, perseverance of the saints.
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E
ephesians2
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Ah, got it. So many abbreviations, so little timeOnce Saved Always Saved. Or, perseverance of the saints.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
I think it is fair that they believe as such since that is how they came to be. They used hte Bible alone to start their own faith system and that is why they can claim Bible alone. The CC being built by Christ has only to claim that the Master is the starter of the Church and not the Bible bcause the Church put forfh hte Scriptures later on.Generalizing about Protestants generally makes for a heap of trouble and hard feelings.
But one universal criticism I have of them is their seeming idea that the Bible is the sole foundation of the faith. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that christianity was hundreds of years old before the successors of the apostles authoritatively divided the inspired books and letters from the uninspired ones.
When people ask “Where is the Scriptural basis for the Real Presence in the Eucharist?” they betray their ignorance that christians already believed that (well documented historically) for a couple hundred years before the canon of Scripture was defined.
=Incomplete;7876117]
As another poster stated, I also have no problems with Protestants, but there are things about Protestanism that I don’t understand.
For example, Protestants think they can interpret Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit, that all individuals can do this. That is a big problem for me, because it seems so obvious that if this were true, all who pray and believe would come to the same conclusions.
Hi Incomplete,I quote the above statement because that is just one place where thinking you can interpret Scripture with no help makes no sense. You scratch your head over the Real Presence in the Eucharist; Catholics see it in many places in Scripture. Catholics see it very clearly. Early Christians saw it clearly. Some Protestants do as well.
Maybe I can help here, from a Lutheran perspective, which surely will vary from most protestant views.
Concerning individual interpretation, second generation Lutheran reformer Martin Chemnitz said this: "This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages"
As a Lutheran, I am bound to scripture and the Lutheran confessions when it comes to doctrine, and personal interpretation plays no part.
While the Holy Spirit’s guidance is perfect, reception of it by sinners is not.That’s a pretty important issue. If the Holy Spirit was truly leading us as individuals, it seems that all who love God, who pray and do their best to serve God, would come to the same conclusion on this.
Jon
I’m certain, as a Lutheran, I don’t agree with your perception of faith alone. Sola fide says that it is by grace alone through faith alone that we access justification, but that does not mean that works are meaningless. Good works are the command of God, that we love our neighbors as ourselves. So, while good works are necessary (because obedience to His commands is necessary), they do not merit us salvation. Failure to obey His commands is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin can lead to loss of faith and justification. Works are in no way meaningless.Yes, I know we are saved by Grace. My point was Catholics do not believe in Faith Alone but believe that good works are necessary. Whereas Protestants believe in Faith Alone and that good works are meaningless to one’s salvation. And yes, works are part of our justification “was not Abraham justified after offering up his Son Isaac on the Altar?”… James specifically says Abraham was justified by works.
Luther says this in his commentary on Galatians 5:6
“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.”
JonFaith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
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Incomplete
Guest
Thank you, Jon. So often Lutheran perspectives are close enough to Catholic that I don’t get all the animosity. By that I’m talking about the synods that teach that Catholics are not saved.Hi Incomplete,
Maybe I can help here, from a Lutheran perspective, which surely will vary from most protestant views.
Concerning individual interpretation, second generation Lutheran reformer Martin Chemnitz said this: "This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages"
As a Lutheran, I am bound to scripture and the Lutheran confessions when it comes to doctrine, and personal interpretation plays no part.
While the Holy Spirit’s guidance is perfect, reception of it by sinners is not.
Jon
Your last line is so true. Which is why sending the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth must have meant through the Church, not through individuals. If we’re relying on our imperfect reception, we cannot know truth.
R
Ruth_Catherine
Guest
One big thing: authority. I was protestant for 12 years. It was like being lost in a forest. I searched denomonination after denomination trying to figure who was right about so many issues. I finally realized Christianity needs a final authority. It can’t be the Bible because that is left up to every man’s own interpretation.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church Matthew 18:17.
How do you obey this command, if you have elders of a denomination fighting? There is nowhere to go.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church Matthew 18:17.
How do you obey this command, if you have elders of a denomination fighting? There is nowhere to go.
You shouldn’t find that in Lutheranism, as that’s not what the reformers taught. Who is and isn’t saved is in God’s hands, and our speculations regarding it worthless, and perhaps sinful. It seems to me this kind of speculation distracts one from from the task of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling.”=Incomplete;7891113]Thank you, Jon. So often Lutheran perspectives are close enough to Catholic that I don’t get all the animosity. By that I’m talking about the synods that teach that Catholics are not saved.
Luther also made clear that in the Catholic Church are the word and sacraments.
I would agree, though this doesn’t contradict the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the individual. The Holy Spirit uses His Church - word and sacrament - to guide us, and Lutherans recognize how He uses the ECF’s in this way, too. Again, Chemnitz:Your last line is so true. Which is why sending the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth must have meant through the Church, not through individuals. If we’re relying on our imperfect reception, we cannot know truth.
JonWe also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.
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Incomplete
Guest
You shouldn’t, but you do. In addition, I’ve known several Lutherans who claim to know Catholic teachings, teachings like our “worship” of Mary. Some of my friends learned these things at their Lutheran school, others learned in their pastor’s sermons. In fact, it’s not uncommon (at least where I live) for pastors in both Lutheran and other denominations to preach against the supposed errors in Catholicism, generally focussing on things we don’t even teach. I find it amazing that they spread this misinformation at all, especially in sermons. Why even talk about us in sermons?You shouldn’t find that in Lutheranism, as that’s not what the reformers taught. Who is and isn’t saved is in God’s hands, and our speculations regarding it worthless, and perhaps sinful. It seems to me this kind of speculation distracts one from from the task of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling.”
Luther also made clear that in the Catholic Church are the word and sacraments.
Jon
One friend has brought me copies of her pastor’s sermons because she thought they were pretty great, so I’ve actually seen it in writing and know it’s not just her interpretation of what he said.
Certainly. We’re on the same sheet of music here.I would agree, though this doesn’t contradict the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the individual.
Jon
I guess I should ask, when you’re talking about Lutheran teachings, which Lutheran teachings are we discussing? There are several synods, and I’ve learned that they can be quite different from one another. I’m asking not to debate, but just to know for the sake of discussion. Obviously you belong to one of the synods that does not consider Catholics as heathens.
=Incomplete;7893081]You shouldn’t, but you do. In addition, I’ve known several Lutherans who claim to know Catholic teachings, teachings like our “worship” of Mary. Some of my friends learned these things at their Lutheran school, others learned in their pastor’s sermons. In fact, it’s not uncommon (at least where I live) for pastors in both Lutheran and other denominations to preach against the supposed errors in Catholicism, generally focussing on things we don’t even teach. I find it amazing that they spread this misinformation at all, especially in sermons. Why even talk about us in sermons?
I’m sorry that this has been your experience. While it hasn’t been uncommon for me to hear pastors compare Lutheran teaching to Catholic teachings and that of other denominations, I’ve *never *heard a pastor claim that Catholics (or other groups) are not Christian. But were I, as an elder in my parish, to hear my pastor condemn any Christian group as heathen, regardless of how heterodox I may view them to be, I would be in his office to discuss the matter. Lutheran pastors have no authority to teach outside the confessions.One friend has brought me copies of her pastor’s sermons because she thought they were pretty great, so I’ve actually seen it in writing and know it’s not just her interpretation of what he said.
There is only one basis for Lutheran doctrine (outside of scripture), and that is the Lutheran Confessions. Most of the differences between Lutheran synods revolves around fellowship, and in some instances, polity. ( Of course, I am excluding those who have drifted from the confessions, such as some of the leadership in the ELCA on the liberal side, and the ALCC which has decided on communion with Rome, and has eliminated those things in the Lutheran Confessions that contradict Catholic teaching. )I guess I should ask, when you’re talking about Lutheran teachings, which Lutheran teachings are we discussing? There are several synods, and I’ve learned that they can be quite different from one another. I’m asking not to debate, but just to know for the sake of discussion. Obviously you belong to one of the synods that does not consider Catholics as heathens.
In closing, here is a statement regarding Catholics from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Jon**Q: A non-Lutheran Christian friend of mine recently stated that he believes that Catholics are not saved and should not be considered Christians. What is the Synod’s belief regarding the salvation of Catholics who adhere to Roman dogma?**A: The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches (in contrast to “cults,” which typically reject the doctrine of the Trinity and thus cannot be recognized as Christian). In fact, a primary “objective” listed in the Synod’s Constitution (Article III) is to “work through its official structure toward fellowship with other Christian church bodies”—which explicitly assumes that these “other church bodies” are “Christian” in nature. That does not lessen the Synod’s concern for the false doctrine taught and confessed by these churches, but it does highlight the Synod’s recognition that wherever the “marks of the church” (the Gospel and Sacraments) are present—even where “mixed” with error—there the Christian church is present. Such a church is a heterodox church, that is, a church that teaches false doctrine.
B
Black_Moses
Guest
Confused. I understand faith by works and see where it is. But is this where Sola Fide comes from?
Eph. 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph. 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
S
Stepson
Guest
I would like to join in here and point out how unfortunate it is when some Lutherans misspeak for the rest of us. By this I mean when people (who call themselves Lutheran) tell Catholics that they are not saved, are heretics etc.…
And it is not uncommon at all to run across them. My father, whom has been a Lutheran for over 40 years has never read the Augsburg Confession and had no idea that Martin Luther meditated on the Rosary and wrote the Explanation of the Magnificat. Where in it he explains Mary’s Immaculate Conception, her perpetual virginity and how because God filled her with his grace, she was born without original sin.
My dad had always said about the Immaculate Conception and perpetual virginity, and I quote him, “That’s a Catholic thing.” So I read him these portions of the Magnificat that explained this “Catholic thing” and he was speechless. Seriously, he was speechless.
Then to make my point more clearly, my brother whom was born and raised in the Lutheran Church, quit being a police officer and is going off to attend the Seminary. The AFLC not the ELCA mind you. So we were having a discussion about Lutheranism. I commented on how Martin Luther sometimes showed his human emotional side and on occasion threw the baby out with the bathwater when speaking on the Sacraments of the Church.
My brother then commented on how the Lutheran Church does not believe in confession and absolution. Mind you, that this is a 45 year old whom has spent his entire life in the Lutheran Church and furthermore is going to spend the rest of his life dedicating himself to the doctrine of Lutheran Church, saying this.
So I took out my handy book of Concordia and read to him Article 25 entitled Confession. Where in it, it says (and I’ll condense some of it), “Confession in the churches is not abolished among us. The body of the Lord is not usually given to those who have not been examined and absolved. The people are very carefully taught about faith in the Absolution…Our people are taught that they should highly prize the Absolution as being God’s voice and pronounced by God’s command. The Power of the Keys is set forth in its beauty. They are reminded what great consolation it brings to anxious conscience and that God requires faith to believe such Absolution as a voice sounding from heaven.”
When I was finished, I was met with that same defining silence. He too had no idea that this is a teaching of the Lutheran Church.
Here are two people in my family that have been Lutherans all or nearly all their life and do not know its teachings. So it does not surprise me when I hear stories about how Lutherans tell their Catholic brethren false beliefs and say it is from the Lutheran Church.
Forgive me if I am out of line but this weighs on my heart.
Dan
And it is not uncommon at all to run across them. My father, whom has been a Lutheran for over 40 years has never read the Augsburg Confession and had no idea that Martin Luther meditated on the Rosary and wrote the Explanation of the Magnificat. Where in it he explains Mary’s Immaculate Conception, her perpetual virginity and how because God filled her with his grace, she was born without original sin.
My dad had always said about the Immaculate Conception and perpetual virginity, and I quote him, “That’s a Catholic thing.” So I read him these portions of the Magnificat that explained this “Catholic thing” and he was speechless. Seriously, he was speechless.
Then to make my point more clearly, my brother whom was born and raised in the Lutheran Church, quit being a police officer and is going off to attend the Seminary. The AFLC not the ELCA mind you. So we were having a discussion about Lutheranism. I commented on how Martin Luther sometimes showed his human emotional side and on occasion threw the baby out with the bathwater when speaking on the Sacraments of the Church.
My brother then commented on how the Lutheran Church does not believe in confession and absolution. Mind you, that this is a 45 year old whom has spent his entire life in the Lutheran Church and furthermore is going to spend the rest of his life dedicating himself to the doctrine of Lutheran Church, saying this.
So I took out my handy book of Concordia and read to him Article 25 entitled Confession. Where in it, it says (and I’ll condense some of it), “Confession in the churches is not abolished among us. The body of the Lord is not usually given to those who have not been examined and absolved. The people are very carefully taught about faith in the Absolution…Our people are taught that they should highly prize the Absolution as being God’s voice and pronounced by God’s command. The Power of the Keys is set forth in its beauty. They are reminded what great consolation it brings to anxious conscience and that God requires faith to believe such Absolution as a voice sounding from heaven.”
When I was finished, I was met with that same defining silence. He too had no idea that this is a teaching of the Lutheran Church.
Here are two people in my family that have been Lutherans all or nearly all their life and do not know its teachings. So it does not surprise me when I hear stories about how Lutherans tell their Catholic brethren false beliefs and say it is from the Lutheran Church.
Forgive me if I am out of line but this weighs on my heart.
Dan
I
Incomplete
Guest
Jon and Dan,
Your posts have been so full of goodness.
I do realize that Catholics also misspeak about Catholicism. Even some priests do. The times I have had the opportunity to speak to those like you is when I realize how close we are in many ways.
My biggest issue, of course, is when pastors actively preach against Catholicism and also misstate teachings. I never understood the place for preaching against another in a sermon. I do understand teaching the differences in the right setting, but then it helps if the teachings are accurate.
I would really like to see good discussion…not even debate, just discussion… with people like you and Catholics and those like you of other faith traditions … just so people could truly understand each other AND understand how possible it is to live for God and love God with everything in you even with differences.
Having said that, I do of course believe that the Catholic church has the fullness of truth. But I think that understanding is a good step towards some kind of unity, and a deeper love of each other that God would ask of us, and a deeper love of God as well.
Again, thank you so much for participating in this thread.
Your posts have been so full of goodness.
I do realize that Catholics also misspeak about Catholicism. Even some priests do. The times I have had the opportunity to speak to those like you is when I realize how close we are in many ways.
My biggest issue, of course, is when pastors actively preach against Catholicism and also misstate teachings. I never understood the place for preaching against another in a sermon. I do understand teaching the differences in the right setting, but then it helps if the teachings are accurate.
I would really like to see good discussion…not even debate, just discussion… with people like you and Catholics and those like you of other faith traditions … just so people could truly understand each other AND understand how possible it is to live for God and love God with everything in you even with differences.
Having said that, I do of course believe that the Catholic church has the fullness of truth. But I think that understanding is a good step towards some kind of unity, and a deeper love of each other that God would ask of us, and a deeper love of God as well.
Again, thank you so much for participating in this thread.
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