Catholicism and Science

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Ive sometimes wondered why in our modern times, the church seems to agree with the scientific world on just about everything, where as in the past, the 2 entities were almost at each others throats over a variety of topics.

I tend to think if the scientific world was proven wrong or at least inaccurate in the past, its highly likely, in the future, many things considered to be science fact today, will eventually be proven to be wrong/ inaccurate.
Hi, Mike!

…I think that it deals with perspectives… in the past much of what is known was limited… it has been proven that the Church not only did not battle knowledge but she actually fostered it (check out the number of Priests and religious involved in the various branches of science)… the issues that seem salient are those that present controversy–such as the Galileo incident… what anti-Catholics fail to accept is that the Church did not question the science of Galileo but his claim to teach theology (actually to change theology) on the basis of his unproven theory; when the solar model was proven the Church could not but agree with the findings–which she has done from the beginning… though the new findings did not mandate that theology be removed–only the understanding of how our planets function around the sun.

Today, as in the past, science makes as many wrong claims as those that can be proven… yet, only when bent on excluding God from existence, the Church does not challenge even those unproven claims… so the Church has in deed not changed.

Take evolution… while there are many that subscribe to it as fact… it remains a theory. So the Church agrees that God could have used evolution as the means of Creation.

Science set out, a few years ago, to prove “the emergence of life.” It built a massive collider (between the area of three nations) that would eventually cost over 10 billion dollars… so far their “emergence” remains void… though they quickly came up with “reality” is not “reality” theories… so you see 10 billion dollars did not go to waste!

…yep, the Church is silent on the “reality” thing!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein

As someone who watches science on an almost daily basis, I realize that imagination or “what if” plays a role in new scientific achievements. That a fragment of God’s creativity exists in all of us and while some use it to a lesser degree than others, it is part of the scientific process.

However, even though mentioning or thanking God for their work and discoveries was common among scientists until the late 1800s, a new trend has emerged.

nature.com/nature/journal/v394/n6691/full/394313a0.html

Ed
 
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein

As someone who watches science on an almost daily basis, I realize that imagination or “what if” plays a role in new scientific achievements. That a fragment of God’s creativity exists in all of us and while some use it to a lesser degree than others, it is part of the scientific process.

However, even though mentioning or thanking God for their work and discoveries was common among scientists until the late 1800s, a new trend has emerged.

nature.com/nature/journal/v394/n6691/full/394313a0.html

Ed
Hi Ed,

I read the article you linked. I googled why many scientists may feel this way, and found, from a number of links, that the top reasons of why atheist scientists choose to not believe in God because:

1.) God cannot be scientifically tested
2.) A lack of evidence for God (we cannot “see” or “hear” Him)

I can tell you right now that 1.) makes no real sense. The Big Bang theory cannot be scientifically tested either, and yet it is a widely accepted theory in the scientific world. Number 2.) is easily refuted as well because we cannot see nor hear gravity either, and yet it makes its presence known through other outlets. Also, there is the fact that God could simply choose to remain hidden, which seems to surprise non-believers even more for some reason.
 
Hi Ed,

I read the article you linked. I googled why many scientists may feel this way, and found, from a number of links, that the top reasons of why atheist scientists choose to not believe in God because:

1.) God cannot be scientifically tested
2.) A lack of evidence for God (we cannot “see” or “hear” Him)

I can tell you right now that 1.) makes no real sense. The Big Bang theory cannot be scientifically tested either, and yet it is a widely accepted theory in the scientific world. Number 2.) is easily refuted as well because we cannot see nor hear gravity either, and yet it makes its presence known through other outlets. Also, there is the fact that God could simply choose to remain hidden, which seems to surprise non-believers even more for some reason.
Thanks Imma.
Good analysis.

As for your last point, it is hard for some to accept,
“There is a God, and it’s not me.”

.
 
Ive sometimes wondered why in our modern times, the church seems to agree with the scientific world on just about everything, where as in the past, the 2 entities were almost at each others throats over a variety of topics.
Maybe the Church learned from her mistakes.

And maybe because science was so wrong about so many things.
I tend to think if the scientific world was proven wrong or at least inaccurate in the past, its highly likely, in the future, many things considered to be science fact today, will eventually be proven to be wrong/ inaccurate.
You do realize that this is indeed how science works. The facts declared by science today are conditional. Always ready to be changed when new data is discovered.
 
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein

As someone who watches science on an almost daily basis, I realize that imagination or “what if” plays a role in new scientific achievements. That a fragment of God’s creativity exists in all of us and while some use it to a lesser degree than others, it is part of the scientific process.

However, even though mentioning or thanking God for their work and discoveries was common among scientists until the late 1800s, a new trend has emerged.

nature.com/nature/journal/v394/n6691/full/394313a0.html

Ed
True, but see also:
rationalcatholic.blogspot.com/2014/01/are-all-great-scientists-atheists.html
 
There are two areas of natural science.

The basic fundamental realm of science deals with the material world.

The second area or discipline is the Science of Human Evolution. The Catholic Church does not agree with this. This is because the basic evolution model describes the human species as a large population evolving from a large indiscriminate random breeding population. The Catholic Church teaching is that the human species descended from an original population of two.
 
And if I’m not mistaken, it’s expanding at an increasing rate! I think Lemaitre proposed that too. Again, I’m not certain.
Yes he did!!

He is one of my heroes and I will always quote him when people challenge that the Church is anti-science.

He had that run-in with Einstein with Einstein telling him that his mathematics is great but his physics is atrocious. The issue was really Einstein. Einstein’s mathematics informed him that the universe was expanding but for some reason his mind was not able to comprehend that. So, Einstein got around the problem by inserting a constant into his formula to make his mathematics work.

Lemaire worked on it and not just confirmed by mathematics that the universe was expanding (a few years later American astronomer Hubble proved by empirical evidence that the universe was expanding through his observations) but running the expansion backward concluded that there must have been a beginning. Again, all these were proven by mathematics.

He showed it all to Einstein and Einstein not being able to take in the idea of the universe having a beginning rejected it. That was when the greatest mind in astrophysics made that disparaging comment to that humble Belgian priest with a liking for science about his mathematics and physics. Still that humble Belgian priest persisted and today is acknowledged as the first proponent of the Big Bang, a fundamental understanding of modern cosmology. Einstein later said that it was his biggest error in his career, giving that tribute to the humble Belgian priest.

Little less known was that Lemaitre’s bishop later equated the Big Bang with Gen 1. Lemaitre went on to disavow that link. Like many other aspects of his life, his statements tend to get drowned out and unto today many people assumed that a Belgian priest would have discovered the Big Bang as part of his search for Gen 1. No such thing: for Lemaitre science and faith inhabit different spheres.
 
Study of the laws of physics, which are as immutable as the God Who created them, has almost always had appeal to those of faith. There was little need to write about one’s faith in those earlier times, as it was a baseline, a foundation, a default. It simply defined who one was. Only with the advent of secularism and militant atheism has the need to defend the faith arisen. Only since the advent of those two belief systems has the canard of opposition between faith and science arisen.
Umm, forgotten Copernicus, Galileo and Bruno?
 
Umm, forgotten Copernicus, Galileo and Bruno?
Hi, Jim!

…are you intimating that these were persecuted by the Church because they somehow had some scientific views that the Church wanted to silence?

…if so what is your understanding of Christ’s Divinity, the Holy Trinity, and transubstantiation?

…how do you understand pantheism?

Bruno Giordano:
Beginning in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges including denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation. Bruno’s pantheism was also a matter of grave concern.[4] The Inquisition found him guilty, and he was burned at the stake in Rome’s Campo de’ Fiori in 1600 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
)
Maran atha!

Angel
 
I agree with what jcrichton wrote. It is also important to note, that in that time, views such as Galileo’s were never viewed as scientific fact, but instead as philosophy, as were most others. The Church did not “disagree” with him out of fear of science, but instead because they genuinely had no idea whether or not it was scientific fact, because back then a lot of scientific fact that is well known to us could not be proven and was thus perceived as the philosophical opinion of an individual! 🙂
 
The Church did not “disagree” with him out of fear of science, but instead because they genuinely had no idea whether or not it was scientific fact, because back then a lot of scientific fact that is well known to us could not be proven and was thus perceived as the philosophical opinion of an individual! 🙂
I think that’s partly the point. First, the lack of scientific evidence is something retrospective that we attribute to that period. The modern scientific method was somewhat in its infancy at that time, even within scientific circles. As you mentioned, it was taken as philosophy and there was a blurring of boundaries between philosophy and science (and by extension theology as well) for a long time. Most of those in Classical Greek who came up with classical scientific discoveries like Pythagoras etc would have written ‘philosopher’ for Occupation when filling in modern forms. And those whom we see as philosophers today have scientific ideas as well. So, it was probably not like to be accurate to say anyone disagree with anyone else on the basis of absence modern understanding of scientific fact.

Science at that time was more reputational rather evidential - a scientific assertion was true based on who asserted it rather than the modern notion of evidence. The Aristotelian model of the universe endured for a long time despite evidence to the contrary. Even today, much of what we have in nutrition is reputational, slowing being overturned by evidential methods (the idea of 8 pints of water a day was propagated because it was repeated by the authorities when there was no evidence to support it). So, the Aristotelian model was right because it was from Aristotle.

The understanding of the universe by the society at large at that time was Aristotelian and Galileo’s observations upset that model. And the Church did quote Biblical passages (e.g. Ps 104:5) to support the Aristotelian view. At Galileo’s trial at which he was accused of that his assertions was at odds with the Church’s interpretation of the Biblical passages, the arguments by the Church were 18 physical and mathematical arguments, not so much Biblical. The judgement of the court in his first trial was that the heliocentric model was “foolish and absurd in philosophy; and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture”. It was clearly scientific in attempt. It was only in the second trial that the accusation was heresy - “for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world”. So even his accusation of heresy was based on his science and forbade him to teach his heliocentric model. Of course, with the blurring of science and philosophy (and theology) it is easy to paint Galileo’s heliocentric views as theological as well as scientific. One has to read Church judgements within the context of its times. Also, these were the days of the war with Protestantism before the Peace of Westphalia. In fact, the heliocentric model was said to have tinge of Protestantism.

I would agree with you that the Church did not disagree with Galileo on the basis of science per se. At an immediate level, the Church did have concerns that this was an enroachment over its role to determine theology. From Galileo’s writings and actions it seems unlikely he has any intention to do that - he had no argument with the Church on doctrinal issues and just wanted to get back to his telescope, which he was able to do after his abjuration required by the court. He was threatened with torture if he did not abjure. So the role of the Church in safeguarding theology and doctrines was safe for a while longer, which Galileo never challenged.

In the longer run, however much damage was done to the Church. But it was inevitable whatever the Church did in this case. In the longer run, the Church worried that questioning the Aristotelian model could lead to the questioning of every other received truth from the classical world. And if the static nature of knowledge is threatened, the static nature of Church doctrines cannot be far behind. And they were right: the fall of the Aristotelian model led to the Enlightenment, which led among other things to the secularism of today. So, in that sense the Church was right to be concerned over Galileo.

Today, the Church has apologised over the whole affair, some four centuries later. With hindsight we could all wish the Church could have acted differently, but glossing over the facts does not change the fact that the Church did act incorrectly - by the scientific knowledge, judicial standards, and expectations of the Church’s role of today. At best we can say the Church had the best of intentions but the choices made led to undesired consequences. The Church has probably learnt its lesson on science though the unwarranted reputation of being against science within and without the Church unfortunately remains. Probably the bigger lesson on humility is only slowly being learnt.

(By the Church, I do mean both the decision-makers in the Roman Catholic Church as well as the mass of the faithful)

How do I see the entire Galileo affair? Well, these are all acts of my forefathers in faith. I cannot disavow any of it anymore I can disavow my genetic heritage. Right or wrong this is my history. My Church was never intended to be perfect and correct in all its dealings in the human sphere. There is no reason for any shame on me though, particularly with the passage of so many long centuries. Warts and all, what my forefathers in faith did made me what I am today, warts and all. I can do no more than to embrace my history as to reject it would be to reject my self and my identity. I can only find out all I can from it and learn what I can.

And I invite all Catholics to do the same.
 
I think that’s partly the point. First, the lack of scientific evidence is something retrospective that we attribute to that period. The modern scientific method was somewhat in its infancy at that time, even within scientific circles. As you mentioned, it was taken as philosophy and there was a blurring of boundaries between philosophy and science (and by extension theology as well) for a long time. Most of those in Classical Greek who came up with classical scientific discoveries like Pythagoras…

Science at that time was more reputational rather evidential - a scientific assertion was true based on who asserted it rather than the modern notion of evidence. The Aristotelian model of the universe endured for a long time despite evidence to the contrary. Even today, much of what we have in nutrition is reputational, slowing being overturned by evidential methods (the idea of 8 pints of water a day was propagated because it was repeated by the authorities when there was no evidence to support it). So, the Aristotelian model was right because it was from Aristotle.

The understanding of the universe by the society at large at that time was Aristotelian and Galileo’s observations upset that model. And the Church did quote Biblical passages (e.g. Ps 104:5) to support the Aristotelian view. At Galileo’s trial at which he was accused of that his assertions was at odds with the Church’s interpretation of the Biblical passages, the arguments by the Church were 18 physical and mathematical arguments, not so much Biblical. The judgement of the court in his first trial was that the heliocentric model was “foolish and absurd in philosophy; and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture”. It was clearly scientific in attempt. It was only in the second trial that the accusation was heresy - “for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world”. So even his accusation of heresy was based on his science and forbade him to teach his heliocentric model. Of course, with the blurring of science and philosophy (and theology) it is easy to paint Galileo’s heliocentric views as theological as well as scientific. One has to read Church judgements within the context of its times. Also, these were the days of the war with Protestantism before the Peace of Westphalia. In fact, the heliocentric model was said to have tinge of Protestantism.

I would agree with you that the Church did not disagree with Galileo on the basis of science per se. At an immediate level, the Church did have concerns that this was an enroachment over its role to determine theology. From Galileo’s writings and actions it seems unlikely he has any intention to do that - he had no argument with the Church on doctrinal issues and just wanted to get back to his telescope, which he was able to do after his abjuration required by the court. He was threatened with torture if he did not abjure. So the role of the Church in safeguarding theology and doctrines was safe for a while longer, which Galileo never challenged.

In the longer run, however much damage was done to the Church. But it was inevitable whatever the Church did in this case. In the longer run, the Church worried that questioning the Aristotelian model could lead to the questioning of every other received truth from the classical world. And if the static nature of knowledge is threatened, the static nature of Church doctrines cannot be far behind. And they were right: the fall of the Aristotelian model led to the Enlightenment, which led among other things to the secularism of today. So, in that sense the Church was right to be concerned over Galileo.

Today, the Church has apologised over the whole affair, some four centuries later. With hindsight we could all wish the Church could have acted differently, but glossing over the facts does not change the fact that the Church did act incorrectly - by the scientific knowledge, judicial standards, and expectations of the Church’s role of today. At best we can say the Church had the best of intentions but the choices made led to undesired consequences. The Church has probably learnt its lesson on science though the unwarranted reputation of being against science within and without the Church unfortunately remains. Probably the bigger lesson on humility is only slowly being learnt.

(By the Church, I do mean both the decision-makers in the Roman Catholic Church as well as the mass of the faithful)

How do I see the entire Galileo affair? Well, these are all acts of my forefathers in faith. I cannot disavow any of it anymore I can disavow my genetic heritage. Right or wrong this is my history. My Church was never intended to be perfect and correct in all its dealings in the human sphere. There is no reason for any shame on me though, particularly with the passage of so many long centuries. Warts and all, what my forefathers in faith did made me what I am today, warts and all. I can do no more than to embrace my history as to reject it would be to reject my self and my identity. I can only find out all I can from it and learn what I can.

And I invite all Catholics to do the same.
Hi!

Do you have the transcripts (notes)?

It is interesting how the Galileo incident “proves” the Church wrong and against “enlightenment” while hundreds of contributions by Catholics, specifically Catholic Clergy, is fully dismissed… it is a great equalizing standards that is applied here… much like the notion that if you hold to Catholic Teaching you are somehow a bigot but forcing the Catholic Church to commit to the culture of death is not oppressive, underhanded, and abusive…

Who’s really intolerant?

Who’s really against enlightenment?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Yes he did!!

He is one of my heroes and I will always quote him when people challenge that the Church is anti-science.

He had that run-in with Einstein with Einstein telling him that his mathematics is great but his physics is atrocious. The issue was really Einstein. Einstein’s mathematics informed him that the universe was expanding but for some reason his mind was not able to comprehend that. So, Einstein got around the problem by inserting a constant into his formula to make his mathematics work.

Lemaire worked on it and not just confirmed by mathematics that the universe was expanding (a few years later American astronomer Hubble proved by empirical evidence that the universe was expanding through his observations) but running the expansion backward concluded that there must have been a beginning. Again, all these were proven by mathematics.

He showed it all to Einstein and Einstein not being able to take in the idea of the universe having a beginning rejected it. That was when the greatest mind in astrophysics made that disparaging comment to that humble Belgian priest with a liking for science about his mathematics and physics. Still that humble Belgian priest persisted and today is acknowledged as the first proponent of the Big Bang, a fundamental understanding of modern cosmology. Einstein later said that it was his biggest error in his career, giving that tribute to the humble Belgian priest.

Little less known was that Lemaitre’s bishop later equated the Big Bang with Gen 1. Lemaitre went on to disavow that link. Like many other aspects of his life, his statements tend to get drowned out and unto today many people assumed that a Belgian priest would have discovered the Big Bang as part of his search for Gen 1. No such thing: for Lemaitre science and faith inhabit different spheres.
👍 … so when do you want to petition for his Canonization? 😉

Actually, he did seem Saintly! In a humble, simple mannered way, though his mind comprehended far from simple concepts. He enjoyed spending time with his nieces and nephews, right?

How cool would it have been to share Mass from him? 😉
 
Hi!

Do you have the transcripts (notes)?

It is interesting how the Galileo incident “proves” the Church wrong and against “enlightenment” while hundreds of contributions by Catholics, specifically Catholic Clergy, is fully dismissed… it is a great equalizing standards that is applied here… much like the notion that if you hold to Catholic Teaching you are somehow a bigot but forcing the Catholic Church to commit to the culture of death is not oppressive, underhanded, and abusive…

Who’s really intolerant?

Who’s really against enlightenment?

Maran atha!

Angel
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. But if you read my post I hope you will read it in the way I intended. Things are never so black and white. No one is going to be all right or all wrong. We are all subject to the limitations of human understanding and also to our preferences of our prevailing culture. The Church would likely have made a different decision in different circumstances - definitely in the modern Church that has apologised for that affair.

Sometimes I may not like some of the decisions my ancestors in faith but I still do thank them for making me what I am today. If I am to love my history, I would like to love the true history not one I have adapted to my preferences of today. But then again if someone else chooses to do so, its OK as well by me. That’s Catholicism.

As for the references, I will leave it to you to do the requisite research. There are plenty of books written on the trial of Galileo, including by Church figures. May I suggest that you start with JP2’s apology in 1992 - it was in a speech. A few years ago, someone contested his apology though. Actually JP2 did a lot of apologising.
 
👍 … so when do you want to petition for his Canonization? 😉

Actually, he did seem Saintly! In a humble, simple mannered way, though his mind comprehended far from simple concepts. He enjoyed spending time with his nieces and nephews, right?

How cool would it have been to share Mass from him? 😉
Never thought of that. But then think of his canonisation process - the assessors have to read through all that mathematics to see if there is any theological flaw. :D:D
 
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. But if you read my post I hope you will read it in the way I intended. Things are never so black and white. No one is going to be all right or all wrong. We are all subject to the limitations of human understanding and also to our preferences of our prevailing culture. The Church would likely have made a different decision in different circumstances - definitely in the modern Church that has apologised for that affair.

Sometimes I may not like some of the decisions my ancestors in faith but I still do thank them for making me what I am today. If I am to love my history, I would like to love the true history not one I have adapted to my preferences of today. But then again if someone else chooses to do so, its OK as well by me. That’s Catholicism.

As for the references, I will leave it to you to do the requisite research. There are plenty of books written on the trial of Galileo, including by Church figures. May I suggest that you start with JP2’s apology in 1992 - it was in a speech. A few years ago, someone contested his apology though. Actually JP2 did a lot of apologising.
Hi!

…sorry, your post seemed to be somehow leading towards Church error and anti-science (“enlightenment”)… it seemed that you were following the trend to believe every exaggeration and dismiss any fact that demonstrate unfolding of events (like the crusades and witch hunts where, in spite of actual records, the Church is maligned and everything else glorified) to be different than the anti-Catholic propaganda that has pervasively blinded the minds of even many “scholars.”

St. John Paul II did apologize (in my estimation, unnecessarily) for errors of the past–yet, instead of understanding it as a bridge to ecumenism and peace it is taken as “prove” that the Church is in error and has committed herself to heinous crimes against society and science… these same people refuse to accept that “human rights” did not exist in the past… that the rule that the world lived by was the “survival of the fittest” (might is right)–though that has not really changed as governments, businesses and individuals still practice this inhumane model, it is the Church that has been instrumental in affording humanity those marginal “rights” and “civilities” that the world has, reluctantly, accepted.

Seeking to hold the Church accountable for 20/20 hindsight’s “perceived” crimes/error is nothing new… what is new is that people who call themselves “Catholic” and “Christian” go along with the secular construct infused with anger, hate, and persecution of the Body of Christ.

Ignorance is not always bliss!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi!

…sorry, your post seemed to be somehow leading towards Church error and anti-science (“enlightenment”)… it seemed that you were following the trend to believe every exaggeration and dismiss any fact that demonstrate unfolding of events (like the crusades and witch hunts where, in spite of actual records, the Church is maligned and everything else glorified) to be different than the anti-Catholic propaganda that has pervasively blinded the minds of even many “scholars.”

St. John Paul II did apologize (in my estimation, unnecessarily) for errors of the past–yet, instead of understanding it as a bridge to ecumenism and peace it is taken as “prove” that the Church is in error and has committed herself to heinous crimes against society and science… these same people refuse to accept that “human rights” did not exist in the past… that the rule that the world lived by was the “survival of the fittest” (might is right)–though that has not really changed as governments, businesses and individuals still practice this inhumane model, it is the Church that has been instrumental in affording humanity those marginal “rights” and “civilities” that the world has, reluctantly, accepted.

Seeking to hold the Church accountable for 20/20 hindsight’s “perceived” crimes/error is nothing new… what is new is that people who call themselves “Catholic” and “Christian” go along with the secular construct infused with anger, hate, and persecution of the Body of Christ.

Ignorance is not always bliss!

Maran atha!

Angel
OK, I guess everyone has their own world view. God bless
 
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