Catholicism and writing fiction

[LilyPearls]

It’s true. As a professional editor, I see such things in manuscripts all the time. I think too many beginning writers think profanity and graphic scenes or sexual scenes are OK because they’ve appeared in other books or short stories they’ve read. That it’s modern, or edgy. Editors are not just correcting bad grammar, they have the reputation of the company they work for to protect. We’re known as family friendly, so when I see words or scenes that need to go, the words are highlighted and I write in a replacement or graphic or sexual scenes are blocked out and the word “out” is written next to it.

Even with our best writers, we just don’t take a manuscript and publish it as is.

Peace,
Ed

Does it bother you when there is nudity or anything graphic in visual arts from whatever era? Obviously you, as an editor, know this but sometimes such things are included for reasons other than trying to be modern, edgy or relevant.

 

[RPRPsych]

It’s true. As a professional editor, I see such things in manuscripts all the time. I think too many beginning writers think profanity and graphic scenes or sexual scenes are OK because they’ve appeared in other books or short stories they’ve read. That it’s modern, or edgy. Editors are not just correcting bad grammar, they have the reputation of the company they work for to protect. We’re known as family friendly, so when I see words or scenes that need to go, the words are highlighted and I write in a replacement or graphic or sexual scenes are blocked out and the word “out” is written next to it.

Even with our best writers, we just don’t take a manuscript and publish it as is.

Peace,
Ed

Very well said. I, for one, try to eschew all “edginess” of that sort, and I tend to go for works of fiction that do the same.

 

[jeannetherese]

What I want to talk about is where sin can sneak in on writers.

When does writing or the writer’s process become sinful? Particularly as it relates to writing fiction.

Perhaps a way to work through this concern is to look at our Church as it discuses what makes an action morally right.
I’m linking to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for an answer that might help you as you discern your path as a writer. The section entitled Article 4 may prove helpful.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm

The mom and dad shorthand version was:

1. Do the right thing
2. For the right reason
3. Achieve the right result

A 3 out of 3 was a passing grade.

May your work lead many souls to Him. Amen.

 

[DHC1Chipmunk]

How about just writing something you wouldn’t be ashamed to present to Our Lord for editing? (Or reading.)

 

[FaithG]

I love fantasy writing, and I am a Catholic. I studied Creative Writing as my degree field. One of the personal conclusions I have come away with, is that it all depends on your theme and technique.

It’s fine to show the darkness in the world, if you 1) don’t glorify it (make it seem appealing to the reader); 2) balance it with good; and 3) make sure the evil is vanquished in the end. For instance, a character may be persuaded to betray his friends by an evil wizard who feeds his insecurity. To write these scenes convincingly, I have to feel what my character is feeling, as I write it. However, I know that my character is operating under an emotional misconception, and by the end of the story, he will have realized his mistake and redeemed himself. In other words, the story takes him through the trials of temptation and redemption. By writing it, I can share in his spiritual redemption, and thus, the act of writing it makes me a better person.

I would draw the line at certain themes - I don’t know what you consider “gritty”. A plot that involves sexual immorality may not be the best to write if it forces the author to describe the sexual acts in detail. Then, that would force the mind to dwell on lustful/pornographic scenes. Likewise, a scene that takes sadistic pleasure in guts and gore. Even if the main character is the victim, I would tiptoe that line carefully, and focus instead on the character’s emotional transformation through adversity.

For instance, maybe “Cardelle” slays her best friend in anger, before she realizes and repents of her sin. Rather than describing the gushy, bloody act of murder in gruesome detail, it might be better to focus on her emotional state of anger and violence, with just enough sensory detail to get the dramatic scene across; or, create some sort of immediate negative reaction such as - Cardelle suddenly throws up after doing it, but tries to mentally justify the act to herself anyway. This way the story does not get lost in a glorification of the violent act. The story must reinforce all throughout the plot that the evil being portrayed is not healthy and either 1) will be ultimately rejected by the protagonist, or 2) the protagonist himself will be destroyed by the evil he has embraced.

I think as long as you have the Ultimate Good in your mind as you write the detail scenes, you will be fine. And what author doesn’t write with the story’s ending in mind, shaping each individual scene? The ending makes the story.

 

[Joe_5859]

Cardinal Francis Spellman of New York got a novel published in 1952 call “The Foundling”.

amazon.com/foundling-Cardinal-Francis-Spellman/dp/B0007I5XMA/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384478626&sr=1-8&keywords=the+foundling+cardinal+spellman

Judging from Amazon “bestseller” numbers it’s not a bestseller.
He was not likely to write a book with an edge to it. You need an edge to reach today’s audience.

Did you ever see what Flannery O’Connor said about Spellman’s book? I seem to remember her saying it was useful as a doorstop.

 

[Joe_5859]

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m very grateful, I really am. However, I’m not asking for a list of Catholic authors. I’m asking if sainthood and writing fiction mix, emphasis on the writing aspect. By sainthood I don’t mean seeking to be canonized, but trying to be as holy as you possibly can. What I want to talk about is where sin can sneak in on writers.

Pride if the work performs well is an obvious one. Clearly writing gossip pieces is wrong. What about what Stephen Colbert is doing? He’s a writer and a Catholic who roasts Church leaders all the time. I personally have no problem with his work. To be honest, his show helped my conversion along, but some people believe everything he does professionally to be chock-full of sin.

When does writing or the writer’s process become sinful? Particularly as it relates to writing fiction.

I understand what you’re getting at. Different jobs come with different obstacles to holiness that we have to look out for. But I also think they come with unique opportunities to put our faith into practice.

When it comes to writing, I think interior disposition is going to play a large role. There are some things that are clearly wrong (writing a pornographic scene, for example). But then there are many other things where it might be more difficult to tell from an outsider’s perspective. If we are writing something that is true to life, there are going to be characters who sin. As a writer, do we revel in reflecting on that sin? Does it incite us to commit sin or to desire to commit sin? Those are the questions to ask yourself as you go along the way.

 

[VanSensei]

I say, if you don’t let it affect your faith negatively, it’s fine. Personally, as a screenwriter/creative writer, I’ve toyed with the idea of “What if Jesus were born in present-day?” or “How would the historical Jesus be thought of if he were a woman?” and putting it into fiction.

 

[empther]

Did you ever see what Flannery O’Connor said about Spellman’s book? I seem to remember her saying it was useful as a doorstop.

Joe,

this article has a lot to say about Spellman’s book

The Sentimental Option: How Piety Can Betray Art
By Denys Powlett-Jones on October 11, 2011

catholicphoenix.com/2011/10/11/the-sentimental-option-how-piety-can-betray-art/

Excerpts:

Time magazine’s 1951 review gets right to it: “Nobody expects a cardinal to be able to write a great novel, and The Foundling leaves that solid assumption undisturbed,” writes the critic. “As a novelist, Cardinal Spellman is bland and amateurish. But if his book will not advance American literature, it will do positive good in another quarter: every nickel of the proceeds…goes to the New York Foundling Hospital.”

In the non-fiction writings of Flannery O’Connor, who could probably be said to have “advanced American literature,” whatever that means, Cardinal Spellman’s Foundling seems to serve as a watchword for all that she found defective in mid-century American Catholic letters: dreary prose, implausible characters, a sentimental plot built upon moral pieties about what ought to happen, all derived from an underlying mistake: the confusion of subjective intentions, however noble, with artistic skill, which is the only thing that can justify a work of art. :ehh:

I think she’s saying the writer must write about the real world rather than that which he wishes were real, or something like that.
Here, “real” would mean:

1. something that has actually happened,
   or,
2. something that could easily happen,
   or,
3. something that has a high likelihood of happening if the right kind of person is put in the situation described. This would include having somebody in an extremely rare or very unlikely situation and then seeing what that person is likely to do in that situation.
   For example: one character sacrifices his life to save another, in a flood or other kind of disaster. If the book has displayed the sacrificing character’s personality up to now, then this action will not only not be surprising but will even be expected. Then the action of that type of character is real.

This would not be Flannery’s view.

“If we must have trash this is the kind of trash we ought to have,” she wrote about Spellman’s novel in a private 1953 letter. Is that even faint praise? And in a 1963 public lecture at Georgetown, parts of which were published under the title “Catholic Novelists and Their Readers,” she digs in a little deeper:

Poorly written novels—no matter how pious and edifying the behavior of the characters—are not good in themselves and are therefore not really edifying…An individual may be highly edified by a sorry novel because he doesn’t know any better. We have plenty of examples in this world of poor things being used for good purposes. God can make any indifferent thing, as well as evil itself, an instrument for good; but I submit that to do this is the business of God and not of any human being.

A good example of a very indifferent novel being used for some good purpose is The Foundling, by Cardinal Spellman. It’s nobody’s business to judge Cardinal Spellman except as a novelist, and as a novelist he’s a bit short. You do have the satisfaction of knowing that if you buy a copy of The Foundling, you are helping the orphans to whom the proceeds go; and afterwards you can always use the book as a doorstop. But what you owe yourself here is to know that what you are helping are the orphans and not the standards of Catholic letters in this country.

 

[edwest2]

As someone involved in creating fictional worlds, the first thing to keep in mind is that writing is a craft that can be taught to anyone with a desire to learn. To be blunt: it takes knowledge and time to learn how to write a good story. The secular world has its own definition of art and it’s been growing more debased as the years have passed - in books, on screen, on TV and certainly on the internet.

In the secular world, labeling something “art” involves a hierarchical, almost religious tribalism and a type of human psychology that I can’t figure out. As best as I can tell, this psychology is a barrier to divide those who are part of the tribe from those who aren’t. Which seems most apparent in the visual ‘fine arts.’

Writing any type of fiction means knowing how to create compelling characters and to be able to have those characters relate convincingly to each other and other, secondary and even incidental characters. The goal or plot has to be compelling as well. There are formulas, there are story skeletons which can be dressed in any way, but without understanding pacing, tempo and plot devices as they apply to certain genres, the writer writes and hopes that the final work will convey something another person will find worthwhile.

But what is worthwhile for a Catholic writer? Surely, he or she must be informed by standards and these standards should be kept in mind when telling the story. We had an impromptu meeting with our chief writer and a few others involved in the creative process here. He stated what we do should be “family friendly.” That we should be careful about getting too close to the PG-13 line. And each manuscript we see is judged on those merits. As Catholics, we are called to reform the media. Here, our mission is to present heroes as heroes. since if we don’t set the bar high enough, what is left is mediocrity or what is considered “modern” today.

Ask yourself, honestly: Would I want to be known for writing that movie or TV show or book? That will be your legacy even if the reader never knows you’re Catholic. And yes, we can write about the world that can be. A world better than what we have. Something to inspire and aspire to.

As our Editor-in-Chief wrote, he is grateful for the kind words he has received from our readers, and humbled. And we’re having fun doing what we do.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Joe_5859]

Joe,

this article has a lot to say about Spellman’s book

The Sentimental Option: How Piety Can Betray Art
By Denys Powlett-Jones on October 11, 2011

catholicphoenix.com/2011/10/11/the-sentimental-option-how-piety-can-betray-art/

Excerpts:

I think she’s saying the writer must write about the real world rather than that which he wishes were real, or something like that.
Here, “real” would mean:

1. something that has actually happened,
   or,
2. something that could easily happen,
   or,
3. something that has a high likelihood of happening if the right kind of person is put in the situation described. This would include having somebody in an extremely rare or very unlikely situation and then seeing what that person is likely to do in that situation.
   For example: one character sacrifices his life to save another, in a flood or other kind of disaster. If the book has displayed the sacrificing character’s personality up to now, then this action will not only not be surprising but will even be expected. Then the action of that type of character is real.

Thanks for digging those up. I couldn’t find the reference.

 

[FaithG]

As someone involved in creating fictional worlds, the first thing to keep in mind is that writing is a craft that can be taught to anyone with a desire to learn. To be blunt: it takes knowledge and time to learn how to write a good story. The secular world has its own definition of art and it’s been growing more debased as the years have passed - in books, on screen, on TV and certainly on the internet.

In the secular world, labeling something “art” involves a hierarchical, almost religious tribalism and a type of human psychology that I can’t figure out. As best as I can tell, this psychology is a barrier to divide those who are part of the tribe from those who aren’t. Which seems most apparent in the visual ‘fine arts.’

Ed, I applaud you for your work and personally agree that I do not enjoy reading or viewing media that wanders past the PG-13 line. I also agree that (mostly) anyone can be taught the craft of writing. However, I disagree that calling writing an art is a barrier to “divide the tribes”.

Several members of my family are artists, singers, etc. One thing I have noticed is that the people who call something an “art” are those who learn the craft intuitively, rather than logically. So different people dub it a craft or an art based on how their brains work. For instance, my violin teacher has remarked that I have a “natural ear” for intonation. This is not something I ever consciously practiced. So when she starts talking about “beats” and chords, at first all I could do was give her a puzzled look because she was breaking down into logical “craft” talk what I had just assimilated without thinking about it.

The same is true for writing. When I started studying the craft of writing in college, I learned that I had already intuitively been practicing techniques such as assonance, sentence rhythm, without even thinking about it. To me, sentences sounded “musical” or they didn’t. It was an art. However, my college classes analyzed, dissected, and explained the techniques, bringing them into the teachable realm of a “craft” that anyone can learn.

There is an advantage learning something intuitively, because you can just “listen” to a sentence to know if it is written well - there is less conscious parsing. And if there’s something amiss, the sentence “sounds” discordant right away. However, the disadvantage to intuitive learning is that it makes the skill difficult to teach to another person, because you don’t even really know how you’re doing it yourself.

 

[empther]

The same is true for writing. When I started studying the craft of writing in college, I learned that I had already intuitively been practicing techniques such as assonance, sentence rhythm, without even thinking about it. To me, sentences sounded “musical” or they didn’t. It was an art. However, my college classes analyzed, dissected, and explained the techniques, bringing them into the teachable realm of a “craft” that anyone can learn.

Well, I didn’t take creative writing courses and never have analyzed my writing.

All I did was have the main character tell the story in the first person. I concentrated on making her say exactly what a real person in her shoes would tell her audience. To me, that’s art.
Here are the opening lines of my story. See if I succeeded----------------

… I’m Theresa, the only child of Edward and Elizabeth Sullivan, and I hope it’s not bragging to say I was cute as heck at age ten. Everybody in the family said so. I was the princess in the Sullivan clan of Framingham, Massachusetts because besides being cute I was a whiz in school and had a good disposition. All the relatives expected great things from me.

… Nobody could have dreamed of what I would do a few years later, and nobody would have believed it if they’d been told, but when this story began I was a little girl who didn’t have much of a clue about anything. My job as a kid was to figure out what the heck was going on and what to do about it. It’s not easy when you’re young and everything is brand new.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m very grateful, I really am. However, I’m not asking for a list of Catholic authors. I’m asking if sainthood and writing fiction mix, emphasis on the writing aspect. By sainthood I don’t mean seeking to be canonized, but trying to be as holy as you possibly can. What I want to talk about is where sin can sneak in on writers.

Pride if the work performs well is an obvious one. Clearly writing gossip pieces is wrong. What about what Stephen Colbert is doing? He’s a writer and a Catholic who roasts Church leaders all the time. I personally have no problem with his work. To be honest, his show helped my conversion along, but some people believe everything he does professionally to be chock-full of sin.

When does writing or the writer’s process become sinful? Particularly as it relates to writing fiction.

I think that one crosses the line when one seriously portrays immorality as positive. If, for example, as we see in countless romantic comedies, a character slept with scores of women outside of marriage, and with no repercussions, that would be wrong. I also have an interest in writing dark, realistic, and gritty stories, but we must make sure to always characterize evil as evil and good as good.

PS. I too love Stephen Colbert. I used to think of him as an extreme liberal, to be ignored, but when I discovered that he was Catholic (a Sunday school teacher, no less!), my view of him completely changed. I think many left-leaners would be extremely surprised to hear of his true religion and politics.

 

[Viki63]

Can a lady strive for sainthood and write fiction?

I certainly hope so, because I aspire to sainthood, though I’ll need to live to about 500 years old to get there, and I write.
Check out this website about Catholic fiction. It describes what Catholic fiction is eloquently.
My books are about characters facing challenges and overcoming them. I have villains in them, but try to show a little of why they became that way. I’m not interested in plumbing the psychological depths of some murderer, as Dean Koontz has been known to do.

I am not a great writer. But here’s the deal: I feel called to write because non-Christians are turning out floods of books, and people are reading them in droves. There has to be some Christian literature available as well, for those who enjoy reading. Should Christians be limited to reading soft porn, because Christian writers are too worried about sinful thoughts to write?
No, no. Write if you want to. We need Christian writers. And if you’re not the best, keep at it, because we can all improve if we work at it.

 

[FaithG]

I certainly hope so, because I aspire to sainthood, though I’ll need to live to about 500 years old to get there, and I write.
Check out this website about Catholic fiction. It describes what Catholic fiction is eloquently.
My books are about characters facing challenges and overcoming them. I have villains in them, but try to show a little of why they became that way. I’m not interested in plumbing the psychological depths of some murderer, as Dean Koontz has been known to do.

I am not a great writer. But here’s the deal: I feel called to write because non-Christians are turning out floods of books, and people are reading them in droves. There has to be some Christian literature available as well, for those who enjoy reading. Should Christians be limited to reading soft porn, because Christian writers are too worried about sinful thoughts to write?
No, no. Write if you want to. We need Christian writers. And if you’re not the best, keep at it, because we can all improve if we work at it.-

Amen, Viki!!!

We Catholics need good clean - yet well-written - books so that we’re not stuck with junk. I hate grabbing up a neat sci-fi or fantasy book and then putting it back because the author felt they had to stick a porn scene in, or make the lead character sleep with twenty different women, in order for the book to sell. Yech. (Btw, that’s why Spock gets the girl in the new Star Trek movies instead of playboy Kirk, because the directors figured out women want the straightlace guy, not Don Juan. Sorry - my personal opinion.)

I would add that, as Christians, it is also beneficial to write books with good morals but stays away from all the “preachy” stuff. Yech. Part of evangelizing is reaching a larger audience, rather than preaching to the choir, and it’s a whole lot easier to evangelize when you’re not super preachy.

For instance, has anyone watched the movies “A Perfect Stranger”, “Fireproof” and “For Greater Glory”? (Warning - Protestant content in some of these, and Greater Glory was a true story, not fiction). Each of these movies has a different level of preachiness. “Stranger” just turns you right off unless you are already a Protestant who agrees theologically with all of the doctrines expressed by Jesus in the film. “Fireproof” does not endorse any particular denomination, but clearly endorses Christian moral values in marriage, and is a more enjoyable watch. “Greater Glory” is not preachy at all, but the movie uses an atheist protagonist to uphold the virtues of religious freedom, honor, fighting oppression, and defending the Catholic faith, just because it’s the “right thing to do”.

As a Catholic writer, creating a story, I would model after one of the last two movies, especially “Greater Glory”. Good action, good drama, good virtues, good characters, CLEAN, and even defends Catholicism - but all without preachiness or telling people what to believe in a direct way. That’s the best way to evangelize. That’s how Tolkien did it and C.S. Lewis.

 

[edwest2]

Ed, I applaud you for your work and personally agree that I do not enjoy reading or viewing media that wanders past the PG-13 line. I also agree that (mostly) anyone can be taught the craft of writing. However, I disagree that calling writing an art is a barrier to “divide the tribes”.

Several members of my family are artists, singers, etc. One thing I have noticed is that the people who call something an “art” are those who learn the craft intuitively, rather than logically. So different people dub it a craft or an art based on how their brains work. For instance, my violin teacher has remarked that I have a “natural ear” for intonation. This is not something I ever consciously practiced. So when she starts talking about “beats” and chords, at first all I could do was give her a puzzled look because she was breaking down into logical “craft” talk what I had just assimilated without thinking about it.

The same is true for writing. When I started studying the craft of writing in college, I learned that I had already intuitively been practicing techniques such as assonance, sentence rhythm, without even thinking about it. To me, sentences sounded “musical” or they didn’t. It was an art. However, my college classes analyzed, dissected, and explained the techniques, bringing them into the teachable realm of a “craft” that anyone can learn.

There is an advantage learning something intuitively, because you can just “listen” to a sentence to know if it is written well - there is less conscious parsing. And if there’s something amiss, the sentence “sounds” discordant right away. However, the disadvantage to intuitive learning is that it makes the skill difficult to teach to another person, because you don’t even really know how you’re doing it yourself.

When the University was first founded, patrons sought out experts in various fields to pass along their craft. Yes, some people have a gift regarding such things, others don’t.

There are two types of art being promoted in the world: the unintelligible, the ugly, the bebased and the purposely offensive. Pseudo-priests known as “art critics” determine what is and is not art. Once you have your work ‘approved’ it may be shown in one of the places of worship called art galleries. If “important” critics attach the word “important” to your name, the value of your work in dollars increases, and more galleries are likely to exhibit your work.

As a professional editor, 98.9% of the manuscripts I see are bad, and that is true elsewhere. Of the 1% that are good, they require extensive rewriting. Of the .1% that are very good, they require only some rewriting. Of the handful of natural-born talents I have known, their work still needed a polish. Most of the writers I know did not start out with a full skill-set. It took them years to polish their skills - the same with the artists I know.

Intuitive students are quite rare. I’ve taught art classes. They are rare. And creative writing in college? What a waste.

Peace,
Ed

 

[empther]

I am not a great writer. But here’s the deal: I feel called to write because non-Christians are turning out floods of books, :bigyikes: and people are reading them in droves.

Yeah,well, it seems that every new writer these days has a whole series of books, or at least a trilogy. You have to have a trilogy to get the publishers interested, you know.

It took me nineteen years to write Empress Theresa to my satisfaction. That’s 14 words a day.

 

[edwest2]

Yeah,well, it seems that every new writer these days has a whole series of books, or at least a trilogy. You have to have a trilogy to get the publishers interested, you know.

It took me nineteen years to write Empress Theresa to my satisfaction. That’s 14 words a day.

The flood is subsiding, especially in e-books.

Peace,
Ed

 

[empther]

The flood is subsiding, especially in e-books.

I’ve seen many people around the internet say the KINDLE and other ebooks craze is over.
Haven’t seen any hard numbers. I guess Amazon and others keep their cards hidden.

( It always amuses me to see new writers getting murder mysteries published. Like the world needs another million murder mysteries every year. That and romance novels. I think Fabio alone has posed for some six hundred romance novel covers. Anybody have any original ideas to write about? )