Catholicism anti-America?

[requiemaeturnum]

Hello

I was wondering, I always hear all this stuff about how America is the best nation in the world because of things like religious liberty, etc but do we as Catholics believe that?

From Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors:

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.-- Allocution Maxima quidem, June 9, 1862; Damnatio Multiplices inter, June 10, 1851.

1. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.–Allocution Acerbissimum, Sept. 27, 1852.

1. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.–Allocution Nemo vestrum, July 26, 1855.

1. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.–Allocution Acerbissimum, Sept. 27, 1852.

1. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.–Allocution Nunquam fore, Dec. 15, 1856.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I think that our only true religious freedom is that which God gave us. Either we are obedient to God, or we aren’t. What title we give ourselves outside of that doesn’t really matter.

 

[The_Preacher]

Reading the history of the United States, I can only ask the retorical question: Is America anti-Catholic? The onthic myth that America is God’s chosen nation derives from the Anglican Puritans who came to this hemesphere because they couldn’t get away with burning “Papists” in England (happy Thanksgiving). “Our history” is a litany of often bloody anti-Catholicism, " Anglo Saxon Nativeism," and general opperssion of The Church, often hidden under anti Irish, Polish, Italian etc movements. Even Prohabition had anti-Catholic roots (read the period publications). I’ve taught theology and history from the grammer to university level for a number of years now, and it astonishes me how unaware Catholics are of being an oppressed minority. I’ve now dedicating myself to “consciousness raising” and yes the spelling in my articles and book is corrected by my editor. Which side are you on?

 

[KingAlfred]

Hello

I was wondering, I always hear all this stuff about how America is the best nation in the world because of things like religious liberty, etc but do we as Catholics believe that?

From Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors:

Good question. Many have argued American Catholics can’t help but suffer from a split-personality. We really do believe in two religions – Catholicism, and our American civic religion, e.g., popular faith in the democratic state. The latter is the basis of our public education system, that which revolutionized America, and much of the world at large.

 

[requiemaeturnum]

Reading the history of the United States, I can only ask the retorical question: Is America anti-Catholic? The onthic myth that America is God’s chosen nation derives from the Anglican Puritans who came to this hemesphere because they couldn’t get away with burning “Papists” in England (happy Thanksgiving). “Our history” is a litany of often bloody anti-Catholicism, " Anglo Saxon Nativeism," and general opperssion of The Church, often hidden under anti Irish, Polish, Italian etc movements. Even Prohabition had anti-Catholic roots (read the period publications). I’ve taught theology and history from the grammer to university level for a number of years now, and it astonishes me how unaware Catholics are of being an oppressed minority. I’ve now dedicating myself to “consciousness raising” and yes the spelling in my articles and book is corrected by my editor. Which side are you on?

Talk about it…I was taught in public school America was the greatest nation because of its foundation. Now I know America was founded on the sand of Protestantism and Freemasonry.

It is unfortunate many Catholic schools are far out of the price range of many Catholics…

 

[manualman]

America has many notable contributions to the advancement of Western Civilization. IMO, it is not helpful to throw the baby out with the bathwater of anti-catholicism that pervaded most of our national history. America was, IIRC, the first major sized nation to throw out the idea that a monarchy was both necessary and divinely intended and replace it with elected representative government. (Granted the trend started much earlier elsewhere, but it came to its first total fruition here).

What I think most people fail to recognize is the utter necessity of a civilized populace for our system of government to work. IMO, this system just isn’t going to work in a largely pagan population. Times are going to get interesting as our culture drifts further and further from its christian roots.

As for catholic education, please. Dirt poor, oppressed immigrants built the catholic school system from nothing into an astonishing success story. Today, the wealthiest catholics in history pretend that they can’t afford to so much as maintain what their forefathers built for them. What a crock. The truth is that catholics today just don’t CARE enough to make it a priority. Part of the problem is that we aren’t overtly oppressed anymore. When the larger culture was unashamedly anti-catholic and expressed it in public schooling it wasn’t so hard to convince catholic parents to invest in their kids catholic education. Today anti-catholicism is hidden under a mask labeled “tolerance and values - free education.” And catholic parents seem unaware that the culture is as hostile to our faith as ever as they hand their kids over to that very culture for their education.

 

[AgingCatholic]

There is nothing particularly hidden about anti-Catholicism. It is not as overt as when I was a boy, but it is still plainly in view.

As far as being ‘anti-American’, there are two things to consider. First, we have a living, apostolic Church, so we have to look at the Church’s current understanding of proper application of doctrine. Looking at the CDF’s Doctrinal Note on political participation from 2002, one can see that the Church’s generally attitude at democracies and pluralistic societies has shifted.

That said, we have to look at the flip side. Much of what folks around the world would describe as the ‘American attitude’ is Puritan/extreme Protestantism in nature. Think about it, viewing oneself as being morally and inherently superior is expressly rejected by Jesus in the Gospels. We Catholics pray for unity and peace every Mass, and openly identify ourselves as part of global body of the faithful. In the Nicene Creed, we even profess belief in a hierarchal world order, created by God, with an undisputed moral leader.

In Jesus’ time the Pharisee’s were extreme nationalists and xenophobes. They also were not perceived as ‘bad’, most of the population viewed them as ultra religious and national heros. This is something to keep in mind when we tune to Evangelical cable TV and see religious and nationalist rhetoric combine.

 

[bilop]

Hello

I was wondering, I always hear all this stuff about how America is the best nation in the world because of things like religious liberty, etc but do we as Catholics believe that?

From Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors:

No, it is the best nation in the world b/c the govermental system of checks and balances works well to restrain the wickedness of man, and because we are still pre-dominantly a Christian nation.

It would work better if the majority were practicing Catholics. It would work best if everyone were a practicing Catholic.

God Bless

 

[Man]

Our current system is particularly precarious, because on the one hand, the current system is out of date in regards to it supports for the basic assumptions of a typical theological world view, and on the other, the government sees it as its place to force acceptance of, even destructive world views, into common practice, even by encouraging them in the law (as opposed to basic freedom and privacy), to the extent which it attacks even the speech and religious excercise rights of other members of society.

The schools systems are probably the most notable expression of this, as the government does not support them, even though they collect monies for the schooling of the children that attend them. And, the selection of what one’s children are taught in school is a human right… so that the government could only intervene if necessary.

Thus, the government, in order to invade the schools, threatens an assault in at least two way: 1)direct regulation or indirect reforms aimed at forcing certain elements of unacceptable modern culture into them and 2)essentially de-funding them, by withholding money that was collect on behalf of the children they are teaching.

BUT, I am not a radical here, I am just pointing out that the current system often neglects private educational institutions far to much, when education is a human right, and parental involvement and guidance is to be encouraged. I am not saying the every public school needs to be de-funded to pay for private schools, or to what degree or what portion of “per seat” education monies should be awarded to private schools.

I have no objection to the reasonable excercise of the human right to parental involvement in their children’s education.

 

[Petergee]

America was, IIRC, the first major sized nation to throw out the idea that a monarchy was both necessary and divinely intended and replace it with elected representative government. (Granted the trend started much earlier elsewhere, but it came to its first total fruition here).

Was not the Roman Republic (from 510 BC to about 100 BC when it deteriorated to dictatorship whilst retaining the form of a republic) a “major-sized” nation? It was probably the largest single state which had existed up til that time. And the Venetian Republic (9th to 18th century AD) whilsty not large in geographical land area, was immensely rich and powerful. Even the once-powerful Papal States were governed by an elected ruler, not a hereditary monarch.

The rest of your post is spot on.

Catholic Americans are the best and most loyal Americans, because a Catholic citizen is the best kind of citizen ANY country can have. Catholicism teaches loyalty, deference, participation in and respect for the just laws of civil governments more so than any other religion.
However Catholicism dissents from the pervasive American “my country, right or wrong” and “to Hell with the rest of the world” attitudes which have been (in addition to the previously mentioned Puritan-fundamentalist intolerance and errors) the causes of most of America’s troubles.

 

[manualman]

I’m afraid my knowledge of ancient history is more limited than I previously thought. I was under the understanding that Caesars were so monarchical that they were practically considered gods.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[The_Preacher]

I’m afraid my knowledge of ancient history is more limited than I previously thought. I was under the understanding that Caesars were so monarchical that they were practically considered gods.

Thanks for the heads up.

Demi-gods to be exact, by law. Thats where all the trouble between “Church and State” all started. In fact, the Roman State didn’t give a dam what it’s citizens (few) and residents (numerous) believed or how they worshiped, as long as they acknowledged the devine supremicy of the State, personified by Ceaser. Just political, nothing personal. Though it did go to Caligula’s head, which wasn’t screwed on too tightly to begin with. Rome was overflowing with every conceivable cult looted from the far courners of the Empire. A fact that gave Paul no end of trouble as the rich patronesses who supported the Church (read the corpus, particularly the greetings) were always trying to jazz up the doctrine. One had to prove one’s complyance by making the requesit yearly sacrefice to Ceaser, and had to have the official document proving that one had done so to “buy or sell.” That was what John the Seer was talking about when he wrote of the “mark of the beast” in his book “Revelation.” There was actually a lively debate in the proto-Church as to weather or not it was permissable to buy a forged document. Jews, being particularly useful to the Empire in commerce were given an indulgence from making the sacrefice. The Church only began to have trouble after it left the Synagog in 70AD and were no longer considered Jewish. Seems the leaders of the rebellion made the mistake of proclaming their general God’s messiah. Go figure.