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algebra
Guest
No you do not, and again i tell you, you acknowledge this in the apostles creed. The dead were not christian - yet they had sought christ in their actions without knowing him.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
I do not interpret the Apostles Creed to mean that Jesus went to rescue the dead or offer the gospel to them. Men are given one chance to believe on the Lord and be saved.
All who reject Jesus Christ as Lord and who worship false deities will suffer the consequences of their sins. There is no name under heaven by which man must be saved other than Christ Jesus.
R
RosaryGirl_777
Guest
Thanks guys for your posts. I think I understand now.
Pax (Peace)
Pax (Peace)
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
The dead who died BEFORE CHRIST"S DEATH AND RESURRECTION could NOT have known Him as Christ and Messiah. Thus, they were by definition ‘not Christian’ not because they knew Him and refused Him, but because "Christianity’ did not yet exist. . .a very different situation from what exists now AFTER Christ’s resurrection.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
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algebra
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I am telling you what it means, it does not matter how you choose to interpret it.
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algebra
Guest
And what does it mean to know jesus?
It is experiential, the truth and mystery of which cannot be fathomed by the mind.
Which is why your church uses the sacraments to know jesus.
Yet there are ways to know jesus intimately outside the sacraments too.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
You’re telling me how you interpret it; Regardless of the fact, the other posters have already stated, even if your interpretation were correct it would not speak to situations after Christ’s advent.
S
Sepharad
Guest
The way I see it, one cannot belong to two religions at once.
You cannot be a Jew and be a Christian.
You cannot be a Catholic and be a Buddhist.
You cannot be a Jew and be a Hindu.
You cannot be a Christian and be a Zoroastrian.
What I find amusing is that some Catholics here are very adamant that one cannot be a Catholic and a Buddhist at the same time (which I agree with them on).
Yet there were Christians on here who argued with me a few months ago, that one could be a Jew and be a Christian at the same time.
So what I’d say is: if you don’t want people outside your religion deciding whether someone can or cannot belong to your faith as well as another, please grant those of us in other faiths the same right to determine who truly is one of us, and who is not.
You cannot be a Jew and be a Christian.
You cannot be a Catholic and be a Buddhist.
You cannot be a Jew and be a Hindu.
You cannot be a Christian and be a Zoroastrian.
What I find amusing is that some Catholics here are very adamant that one cannot be a Catholic and a Buddhist at the same time (which I agree with them on).
Yet there were Christians on here who argued with me a few months ago, that one could be a Jew and be a Christian at the same time.
So what I’d say is: if you don’t want people outside your religion deciding whether someone can or cannot belong to your faith as well as another, please grant those of us in other faiths the same right to determine who truly is one of us, and who is not.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
What exactly did they mean by that? Were they referring to the Messianic movement?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Triune, there is a difference between a person deliberately rejecting Christ for all time and a person who may have not known Him (after the Resurrection) yet still sought Him, unknowing. The Catechism speaks of this:
**Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320 **
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 **The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: **
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, **it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: **
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too **may achieve eternal salvation.**337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God **can lead **those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
**Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320 **
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 **The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: **
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, **it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: **
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too **may achieve eternal salvation.**337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God **can lead **those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
A
algebra
Guest
Protestants know christ, and yet do not experience him the way catholics do.
Even so they too are saved, if they seek him in life. As is everyone else that seeks christ.
You accept this, because you believe that jesus went to the righteous and they said…“we sought you, even though we knew you not”
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PHX_Paul
Guest
I keep the Catechism of the Catholic on my end table. I use it for a reference all day. I am familiar with my faith. I am,also, familiar with Buddhism- I have about 20 books on the subject in my library. The label a " Buddhist Catholic" is absurd. A " Catholic Buddhist" is even more absurd. A Buddhist believes in metempsychosis- reincarnation. Reincarnation isn’t in the picture in Christian theology. There are “4 Final Things” in Christianity-----Death, Judgement, Heaven or Hell. There is absolutely no such concept in Buddhism, except perhaps in the Pure Land Sect in Japan where they think that they can get to the Land of Bliss by reciting a mantra for the rest of their lives. Every time I recite the Apostle’s Creed I am affirming my faith in a bodily resurrection. Buddhists are non-theistic----they don’t believe in a personal God. I do.
And speaking of a " personal God" …it’s time to say my prayers and devotions and thank my " personal God" for a good day and this great Forum.
Good Night!
God Bless You!
Paul
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TriuneUnity
Guest
All men know by nature that God exists. However, due to their nature as sinners, they reject Him as God. Prior to ever hearing the name of Christ every sinner is already condemned for rejecting the truth of God’s revelation both in nature and in the inner conscience (the Law written on the heart).
There are no innocent natives in the world. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Barring the gospel creating faith in the hearts of sinners they will be (and already are) under the condemnation of God’s justice.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
I am a Protestant. We are not talking about Protestants. We are talking about non-Christians. Without the light of the gospel in word and sacrament, they are already lost.
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algebra
Guest
Then you have not experienced jesus, even though you seek him.
It is apparent from your lack of understanding of judaism, or catholicism.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Can you please provide some documentation or source on what authority makes your interpretation correct over anyone else? Or do you speak from a private revelation or private interpretation?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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TriuneUnity
Guest
But they have experienced God simply by the fact that they were created by Him; and they are under condemnation for rejecting Him already.
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algebra
Guest
There is no rejection, just as adam and eve did not reject G_D, so much as they sought other than G_D.
Just as you seek, but you cannot find because you are blind without the sacraments.
A
algebra
Guest
I have not seen any other interpretation. Mine is the only valid one.
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