Catholicism caused Islam?!?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Shibboleth:

This is funny considering that we have quotes from St. Ignatius of Antioch referring to Mary as the Theotokos or “God Bearer” as far back as A.D. 110. The only reason why certain people didn’t want to call Mary a “God Bearer” in the past is because it sounded as if she existed before the Son when in truth Jesus existed long before his birth. This is why for a time some called Mary the Xristotokos or Christ Bearer instead.

What letter is that in ?​

Of 13 attributed to him, only seven are by him. ##

 

[Funky_Cedars]

Momofone:

To…Funky Cedars: I know!! Those were not my words. Those were from the website that the OP posted at the begining. I said that right under the quote…

which is why i included your reference to the website in my quote of you.

 

[Irenicist]

ElizabethJoy:

Hope this will be helpful to someone,
Elizabeth

No, it isn’t. There is arguably more diversity within Islam than there is within Christianity. I find it rather sad that Catholics, particularly American Catholics who live in a country that cherishes religious liberty, should feel so free to apply such a negative broad-brush stereotype to over a billion people based on the actions and sermons of a violent extremist minority. It’s like judging Christianity by the actions and words of nutbar Aryan White supremacists or Judaism on the basis of the Israeli militant settler movement. Take the blinkers off, nurture a few Muslims as friends, and you will find a moderation, piety and gentleness of spirit that should put most nominal Christians to shame. Keep in mind that the number of Christians who have died at the hands of “Islamic” terrorists pales in comparison to the number of innocent fellow Muslims killed by these same groups.

Irenicist

 

[Irenicist]

Eden:

How would you respond to this article which states that Islam is the religion most prone to violence because unlike Christianity which states “love thy neighbor”, Muslims are obligated to engage in jihad?

Here are some excerpts:

First, it means that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political ideology. If the government of the Muslim community simply is God’s government, then no other governments can be legitimate. They are all at war with God. As a result, Muslims have typically divided the world into two spheres, known as the Dar al-Islam—the “house of Islam” or “house of submission” to God—and the Dar al-Harb, or “house of war”—those who are at war with God.

Second, it means that Muslims have believed themselves to have a “manifest destiny.” Since God must win in the end, the Dar al-Harb must be brought under the control of Muslim government and made part of the Dar al-Islam.

Third, since the Dar al-Harb by its nature is at war with God, it is unlikely that it will submit to God without a fight. Individual groups might be convinced to lay down their arms and join the Muslim community by various forms of pressure—economic or military—that fall short of war. In history some groups have become Muslim in this way, either fearing Muslim conquest, desiring Muslim military aid against their own enemies, or aspiring to good trade relations with the Muslim world. But many peoples would rather fight than switch. This has been particularly true of Christians, who have put up more resistance to the Muslim advance than have pagan and animistic tribes.

Because of the need to expand God’s dominion by wars of conquest, Islam’s ideology imposes on Muslims the duty to fight for God’s community. This duty is known as *jihad *(Arabic, “struggle, fight”). Although it is binding on all Muslims, it has been particularly incumbent on those on the edges of the Muslim world, where there was room for expansion. Only by continual jihad could the manifest destiny of Islam to bring the world into submission to God be fulfilled.

As eminent French sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion."

In other words, your religion teaches that you are obligated to exert violence on non-believers. Is that not so?

This may surprise you, but most Muslims are just as horrified as you are at the way these features are taken out of context by extremists. Does the hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” mean that all Christians are expected to take up arms and shoot non-Christians? When the Church calls upon you to “struggle” for your faith is it calling you to violence. When Protestants launch on one of their “Crusades for Christ”, are they donning flack jackets and taking out their M16s?

The inward struggle against evil, sloth and temptation is the principal meaning of “jihad”. The term has been hijacked by extremists to justify violence against all those who don’t fit their definition of a good Muslim. Terrorist extremism from within its nominal ranks is certainly something Islam is going to have to deal with, but you do yourselves no favours by “proving” to the moderate majority that the extremists are right and that Westerners have nothing but hate and contempt for Islam and Muslims.

Before launching on such tirades, just think of two words: “Jack Chick”.

Irenicist

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Irenicist:

Before launching on such tirades, just think of two words: “Jack Chick”.

Hahaha! I was thinking that the whole time I was reading your posts. I read on their site (Chick Publications) about a bunch of “militant Catholic” countries. Northern Ireland was listed. Well, first off, Northern Ireland does not have its own government, only members in the British Parliamen; it is part of the UK (unfortunately). But, I would assume they are refering to the IRA and trying to make it sound like they are the people in power in the North and try to make it sound like it is only their Catholicism that is driving them. What Chick neglects to mention is that the Ulster Freedom Fighters and Ulster Volunteer Force are both listed as terrorist groups by the US Department of State and they have killed more innocent civilians than the IRA. Are they representative of the Protestant faith???

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Irenicist:

No, it isn’t.

Apparently you did not find it helpful. Perhaps others did. I didn’t lie. I said nothing inflammatory. I said nothing hateful. I don’t hate Muslims, far from it - I am afraid of what the extremists among them are doing in the name of Allah.

And I’m afraid that most people are still laboring under the carefully crafted false sense of security in the notion that the extremists are a tiny minority. They may well be a minority, but imams and ayatollahs claim that between ten and thirty percent of the men of their mosques are ready to take up jihad. If it’s only ten percent, that’s over a million and a half people - quite a formidable army.

If it’s just a tiny minority, where is all the anguish from the majority? When extremists started bombing abortion clinics and killing abortionists, Christians were the loudest at denouncing the violence. **If you don’t denounce and shun those who advocate violence in the name of Christianity, then you are doing harm to the pro-life cause and Christianity. **

If you do not speak against it, you are lending your approval.

I find it rather sad that Catholics, particularly American Catholics who live in a country that cherishes religious liberty, should feel so free to apply such a negative broad-brush stereotype to over a billion people based on the actions and sermons of a violent extremist minority.

What I think is sad is that we have made such a big mistake - such a terrible miscalculation. We have taken at face value the claim that Islam is a religion of the God of Abraham.
Now this is either clearly false or God changed in some very startling ways sometime between the New Covenant and the life of Mohammed - He changed what He valued, He changed what He taught about morality and He changed what He wanted from His followers - and not just little changes - He turned many tenets upside-down and inside-out, abandoning both previous covenants.

And He did it without even letting His Church know that he had done so? Just up and left His followers without a clue and gave the new word, instead, to those who did not follow him?

What kind of a god would do that to His devoted people? Promise never to leave them and then abandon them to adopt some other group of people?

Is this

the God of Abraham? These all refer only to matters of deception, leaving aside for the moment all of the other matters in which this god changed in the transition between being the God of Abraham and the Allah of Mohammed! And these are only a very few examples with regard to deception.

What do you believe? ("I believe these and all the truths which the holy Catholic Church teaches, because you who have revealed them, can neither deceive nor be deceived.")

Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”

Qur’an 8:71 “If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived Allah before.”

Bukhari:V5B59N369 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes,’ Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.’ The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.’”

Qur’an 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”

Ishaq:383 “One of the young men’s fathers confronted Muhammad and said, ‘You have robbed my son of his life by your deception and brought great sorrow to me.’”

Ishaq:397 “Then Allah said, ‘It is not for any prophet to deceive.”

Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”

Tabari VIII:23 “The Messenger and his Companions continued in the fear and distress that Allah has described in the Qur’an. Then Nu’aym came to the Prophet. ‘I ‘ve become a Muslim, but my tribe does not know of my Islam; so command me whatever you will.’ Muhammad said, ‘Make them abandon each other if you can so that they will leave us; for war is deception.’”

cont…

 

[ElizabethJoy]

cont…

Some people claim that anyone who speaks the truth about Islam are anti-Muslim and they try to draw a correlation between anti-Islamism and anti-Semitism or anti-Catholicism.

There is a glaring difference. For anti-Semites and anti-Catholics to preach the terrible things that they do, they must necessarily resort to lies and distortions. If they were to be constricted to telling the truth, they would not be able to spout hate-filled bile and vitriol.

By contrast, all you have to do to be branded an anti-Muslim is to refute Islam, no matter how calmly or quietly you speak your truth. All you have to do is tell the truth.

I’m not a bigot if I refute Mormonism. I’m not a bigot for rejecting nature-worship. I’m not a bigot for pointing out the inconsistencies of Jehovah’s Witnesses teachings. But, if I tell the truth about Islam and what it says in their writings, what their leaders are preaching, refute their history or reject their theology, I’m a bigot and equal to Jack Chick. How interesting. And how telling.

There is a wealth of information that refutes Islam, explains how the extremists are succeeding with our cooperation, and how the media is helping to perpetuate this notion that we who don’t trust Islamic leaders are bigots. Here are just a few sites with reasoned and researched articles and news. We are being led down a primrose path.

answering-islam.org/
faithfreedom.org/
islamreview.com/articles/ifislam.shtml
jihadwatch.org/
memri.org/index.html
muslim-refusenik.com/index.html
prophetofdoom.net/
anti-cair-net.org/
danielpipes.org/

Elizabeth

 

[Faith101]

The_Angelus:

Well, everybody knows Mohammed didnt’ like women. Except in batches of 4, but he decided 7 was a better number for him personally and it was just everybody else who had to go with 4. Gee, get your rear off the fence, fellah. :tsktsk:

Peace The-Angelus

Muslim WOMEN had rights in 7th century arabic that american women recieved in the 20th century… As a muslim woman, i can tell you that i enjoy rights that american women dont have. God has made everyone equal in his sight, except He has elevated the righteous people (man or women).

 

[Funky_Cedars]

Faith101:

… As a muslim woman, i can tell you that i enjoy rights that american women dont have…

Glory be Jesus Christ!
i’m guessing ‘american women’ refers to ‘females of the united states’ since american women technically includes ladies from the top of canada to the bottom of chile. anywho, as the ‘rights…that american women recieved in the 20th century’ would seem to indicate the right to vote and since you don’t live in 7th century arabia and given that there are 20th century muslim women living in countries without universal sufferage, could you please expand upon your statement?
thanks for listening, t

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Faith101:

Peace The-Angelus

Muslim WOMEN had rights in 7th century arabic that american women recieved in the 20th century… As a muslim woman, i can tell you that i enjoy rights that american women dont have. God has made everyone equal in his sight, except He has elevated the righteous people (man or women).

What rights are those?

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Booklover]

ElizabethJoy:

cont…

Some people claim that anyone who speaks the truth about Islam are anti-Muslim and they try to draw a correlation between anti-Islamism and anti-Semitism or anti-Catholicism.

There is a glaring difference. For anti-Semites and anti-Catholics to preach the terrible things that they do, they must necessarily resort to lies and distortions. If they were to be constricted to telling the truth, they would not be able to spout hate-filled bile and vitriol.

By contrast, all you have to do to be branded an anti-Muslim is to refute Islam, no matter how calmly or quietly you speak your truth. All you have to do is tell the truth.

I’m not a bigot if I refute Mormonism. I’m not a bigot for rejecting nature-worship. I’m not a bigot for pointing out the inconsistencies of Jehovah’s Witnesses teachings. But, if I tell the truth about Islam and what it says in their writings, what their leaders are preaching, refute their history or reject their theology, I’m a bigot and equal to Jack Chick. How interesting. And how telling.

Hi Elizabeth Joy!

Thanks so much for your wonderful post. Everything you say is true and very much appreciated. I’ve been accused of not “loving my enemy” and other things because of my harsh post denouncing Islam.

I don’t know about you, but it bothers me when some Catholics on this site come to the defense of Islam when we speak out against what’s going on. Whose side are they on? We’re not lying, we’re talking about bad things that are happening and have happened inconsistent with the Muslim assurance of peace and they jump on us! So what are we supposed to do, look the other way and keep silent? Yes, very interesting and very telling!

Vickie

By the way, thanks for the links at the bottom!

 

[fatuma]

Muslim woman’s right

1. the right to an education; every muslim man or woman is commanded by God to seek knowlegde even if you have to go to the ends of the earth.
2. the right to own, buy, sell, inherit property.

3.the right to be in a will and inherit whatever is being inherited

1. the right to vote, take part in public office, run for or be nominated for public office( judgeship, ministry of whatevr, mayor, everything but leader of a nation(the reasons are for God to know and us to find out when we die)
2. The right to say no in a marriage proposal
3. The right to contest for divorce and the right to alimony for a set period of time
   mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/divorce.html
4. a muslim woman does not take the last name of her husband, she is her own person and he is his own
5. The right to work and when you work by islamic law your money is yours and nobody can touch it unless you will it.

I’m very tired right now, these are all I kind this of right now, someone esle please find the rest.

wa salam

 

[Munawar]

ElizabethJoy:

There is a glaring difference. For anti-Semites and anti-Catholics to preach the terrible things that they do, they must necessarily resort to lies and distortions. If they were to be constricted to telling the truth, they would not be able to spout hate-filled bile and vitriol.

Hi Elizabeth Joy,

Let me see if I have this straight. Anyone who says things against Christianity and Judaism is a liar. Anyone who says things against Islam is telling the truth.

Do you realize how closed minded you come across?

Munawar

 

[fatuma]

when catholics make statments that our prophet(saw) was influence by christains and jews on his journeys, you need to ask question like;
what kind of christains and jews lived at this time, what sect did they follow, what holy books did they have , what langauge was it in, how long would it take to to become learned about these religions, are the quran and the bible similar in their veiws on major topics, minor topics, views on God, the angles, the prophets, death, life etc?
you know, the liitle things that awould back up your claims.

wa salam

 

[Finex]

1. the right to an education; every muslim man or woman is commanded by God to seek knowlegde even if you have to go to the ends of the earth.

1. the right to own, buy, sell, inherit property.

3.the right to be in a will and inherit whatever is being inherited

1. the right to vote, take part in public office, run for or be nominated for public office( judgeship, ministry of whatevr, mayor, everything but leader of a nation(the reasons are for God to know and us to find out when we die)

1. The right to say no in a marriage proposal

1. The right to contest for divorce and the right to alimony for a set period of time
   mwlusa.org/publications/…rs/divorce.html

1. a muslim woman does not take the last name of her husband, she is her own person and he is his own

1. The right to work and when you work by islamic law your money is yours and nobody can touch it unless you will it.

I’m very tired right now, these are all I kind this of right now, someone esle please find the rest.

How would you reconcile this with the Taliban in Afganistan?

 

[fatuma]

Simple, they didn’t follow their religion because all of this is written out in black and white in the quran. Plus, it wasn’t only women they abuse, they also held the men hostage with their laws.

wa salam

 

[Booklover]

fatuma:

when catholics make statments that our prophet(saw) was influence by christains and jews on his journeys, you need to ask question like;
what kind of christains and jews lived at this time, what sect did they follow, what holy books did they have , what langauge was it in, how long would it take to to become learned about these religions, are the quran and the bible similar in their veiws on major topics, minor topics, views on God, the angles, the prophets, death, life etc?
you know, the liitle things that awould back up your claims.

wa salam

Hey, we’re still waiting for you to prove:

A. That the Angel Gabriel really appeared to Mohammed.

B. That the Qur’an is the word of God.

WHERE’S THE PROOF?

 

[fatuma]

Well I guess that you will have a long wait for you then because the only reason why I came on this forum was to dialogue not debate. You have your belief in God and I have my belief in God and I have a feeling that neither one of us will convince the other that theirs is right.
BTW, the title of this thread is called ’ Catholicism caused Islam?!?’ and the burden of proof lies on those who claim this which is why I was asking them to back this statement up with proof.

wa salam

 

[Booklover]

fatuma:

Well I guess that you will have a long wait for you then because the only reason why I came on this forum was to dialogue not debate.

YOU’RE HEDGING! IN OTHER WORDS, YOU DON’T KNOW IF THERE IS ANY PROOF!

You have your belief in God and I have my belief in God and I have a feeling that neither one of us will convince the other that theirs is right

YEP, YOU’LL NEVER CONVINCE ME.

BTW, the title of this thread is called ’ Catholicism caused Islam?!?’ and the burden of proof lies on those who claim this which is why I was asking them to back this statement up with proof.

wa salam

THAT STATEMENT THAT CATHOLICISM CAUSED ISLAM IS A FABRICATION BY FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS IN ORDER TO DISCREDIT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID NOT FOUND ISLAM AS YOU SHOULD KNOW!

 

[fatuma]

THAT STATEMENT THAT CATHOLICISM CAUSED ISLAM IS A FABRICATION BY FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS IN ORDER TO DISCREDIT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID NOT FOUND ISLAM AS YOU SHOULD KNOW!

This is what I am saying but there are thoses here that keep on saying that islam is just a revamp of the chruch. And no, I am not hedging because I know my strenghts and weakness and I don not have the knowledge to successfull debate because I am still learning but I can dialogue by teaching what i know

wa salam