Catholicism & Free Will

[Nick_Jones]

The “morally elite”, as you call them, who are not elite except in that they’ve accepted and acted upon the revealed truth of God, have NO POWER to DO anything to elevate themselves to heaven.

But you used the word “power” in the context of human free will!

It seems to me that your theology is just moral elitism in that it unavoidably leads to the conclusion that only those who are morally good will (quite naturally) use their free will in a good way and (quite naturally) choose wisely, while all the rest choose unwisely by their morally evil free will:

Only God has any POWER to elevate people to heaven.

They (the “elite”) are merely available for “transport” in accord with the revealed truth of God.

Why would people make the choice to go to heaven? Because they think it’s a good idea.

Why would people make the choice NOT to go to heaven? Primarily because they would rather choose to believe what they WANT to believe, regardless of whether it is contrary to the revealed truth of the Church, because that truth is “unbelievable” to them. WHY it is unbelievable to them depends on the individual.

I agree with you that we all make our own choices. But the biblical reason why some people choose wisely is because of God’s grace which brings regeneration to sinful souls making them see themselves as truly lost sinners before God. Only those who have been born again (regenerated) will come to Jesus for mercy, and no one comes to Jesus without first being drawn by the Holy Spirit.

 

[marci]

Read CCC 494, 411,

We can refer to Mary as the “New Eve” because through her obedience, she made right the disobedience of Eve.

What is a sin? Sin is disobedience to God’s Law. Eve was disobedient, therefore, Eve sinned.

 

[Revelation13_16]

We can refer to Mary as the “New Eve” because through her obedience, she made right the disobedience of Eve.

Think about it, Who was Adam?

• The 1st Man
• The one who brought sin into the world

Who was Jesus?

• The 2nd Adam
• The one who took sin away from the world

Do you see how Jesus is the logical “mirror reflection” of Adam?

Now let’s look at Eve, who was she?

• The one who assisted in bringing sin into the world.

Who was Mary?

• The one who assisted in taking sin away from the world.

As you can see, Mary is the logical “mirror reflection” of Eve.

If you however say Eve sinned, then it was Eve and not Adam who first brought sin into the Garden of Eden and subsequently the world.

This contradicts both the Old & New Testaments which lay that blame squarely on Adam.

Saying otherwise is heresy.

The facts are:

Eve’s eating of the fruit had no effect, after her bite her eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil. It wasn’t until Adam bit the fruit that that effect took place.

God commanded Adam not to eat the fruit before Eve was created, there was no “covenant” with Eve whatsoever - woman was made for man, man was made for God.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[marci]

QUOTE=Revelation13_16;1915625]
The facts are:

Eve’s eating of the fruit had no effect, after her bite her eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil. It wasn’t until Adam bit the fruit that that effect took place.

God commanded Adam not to eat the fruit before Eve was created, there was no “covenant” with Eve whatsoever - woman was made for man, man was made for God.

I have been reading the CCC and the Catholic Encyclopedia about whether or not Eve commited sin. In every passage I have found this is affirmed. I have also included verses from Genesis for your info.

Genesis 3:1-6

1)"Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise?
2) And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat:
3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.
4) And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
5) For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
6) And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat.

Eve commitied an act of disobedience when she ate the fruit. These verses in Genesis tell us that she knew it was forbidden because she told the serpent this: "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat."

Clearly, Eve knew that God commanded them not to eat from the tree. Now, if we willingly disobey a commandment of God, we commit a sin.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholic believe in free will. Catholics also believe in the elect.

Catholics are not Calvinists or Arminians.

Thomists would be closer to Calvinists and Molinists would be closer to Arminians but both are much closer to the truth than Calvinists and Arminianists.

The real truth probably lies somewhere in between Thomism and Congruism which is a developed form of Molinism.

Trying to DEFINE it is about as impossible as DEFINING the mathematical value of Pi.

I think that Father William Most came as close to the truth of reconciling freedom of will and predestination as anyone.

The Catholic Church has said that both the Thomist view and the Molinist view of grace are acceptable.

If the Catholic Church chose not to resove that issue maybe it was because it knew that the mind of God was unfathomable.

All I know is this–never sacrifice the freedom of will of man to the sovereignty of God–both exist and there is no contradiction.

Even if you can’t fully understand that it doesn’t mean that it is not none the less true!

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
The “morally elite”, as you call them, who are not elite except in that they’ve accepted and acted upon the revealed truth of God, have NO POWER to DO anything to elevate themselves to heaven.

But you used the word “power” in the context of human free will!

They have only th power to CHOOSE, not the power to “ELEVATE”.

It seems to me that your theology is just moral elitism in that it unavoidably leads to the conclusion that only those who are morally good will (quite naturally) use their free will in a good way and (quite naturally) choose wisely, while all the rest choose unwisely by their morally evil free will:

If one’s will is to do evil (having a “non-morally good will”), then one will not use that “will to evil” to do good, and to not do good is to choose unwisely, as that will send you into the torments of hell.

Are you actually saying (out loud) that ANY evil choice is a wise choice?

Quote:
Only God has any POWER to elevate people to heaven.

They (the “elite”) are merely available for “transport” in accord with the revealed truth of God.

Why would people make the choice to go to heaven? Because they think it’s a good idea.

Why would people make the choice NOT to go to heaven? Primarily because they would rather choose to believe what they WANT to believe, regardless of whether it is contrary to the revealed truth of the Church, because that truth is “unbelievable” to them. WHY it is unbelievable to them depends on the individual.

I agree with you that we all make our own choices. But the biblical reason why some people choose wisely is because of God’s grace which brings regeneration to sinful souls making them see themselves as truly lost sinners before God. Only those who have been born again (regenerated) will come to Jesus for mercy, and no one comes to Jesus without first being drawn by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit only reaches out to the baptised (regenerated)?

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm#847

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Paragraph 847: "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation” (LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872).

People who “choose wisely” do so because they are listening to natural law (at least), which was placed within all men by God.

Natural Law, CCC:1954-1960
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3.htm#1954

Once they understand the wisdom of listening to natural law, then they will, eventually, come to seek the Body of Christ (the Catholic Church) for more clear answers to their questions regarding wisdom, either in this world or in the next (purgatory).

Free will:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art3.htm#1730

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It is possible for those who know of ONLY the Natural law to MORTALLY sin. Absent Perfect contrition we do not know of any way they can be reconciled to God. God might provide a way because He is not limited by just the sacraments but If HE does it is something that has not been revealed to us.

God could of course grant the person the grace to become PERFECTLY CONTRITE and they could be reconciled to Him that way. Does that happen? We do not know but we have to say that it is at least possible.

Bottom line: It is VERY DIFFICULT to be reconciled to God after mortal sin without the sacraments of the Catholic Church.