Catholicism in Britain, and the future

  • Thread starter Thread starter thomasjefferson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

thomasjefferson

Guest
I was looking for a map that shows the distribution of British Catholics geographically - I was curious to know how many live in each region. I couldn’t find that (if anyone can suggest where I could find this is would be grateful!).

However I did come across this interesting article, in which a couple of paragraphs particularly caught my attention.

Firstly, as a protestant convert to Catholicism, I have always been impressed with the church’s brave approach to rationality - facing it head on. This was exactly what I needed from my church and I’ve found that in abundance (particularly on CA). I haven’t found a philosophical question yet with which I haven’t found a satisfactory Catholic answer.
“A rational faith will also always be an argumentative faith, whereas directly revealed faith is less tolerant of arguments because its claims rest entirely on the personal credibility of the speaker, so attacks must be by nature ad hominem and therefore personally offensive. It is this appeal to rationality that gives Christianity life in the scientific age and will stifle Islam in Britain beyond its reproductive growth.”
Click to expand...
Source: How Catholics can reclaim Britain

For me Christianity offered an alternative to the rampant consumerism and immorality we face every day here in Britain. I really think the church should market itself on these contentious issues.
“Abortion; the tragedy of so many millions of children suffering from broken homes; epidemics of pornography and substance abuse – these are the mortal dangers faced by Christians in Britain […] What Britain needs is a re-evangelisation mission based on eternal truths, on the knowledge of God lodged in our hearts, and the Christian heritage and world view lodged in the minds of those who grew up in this country we are privileged to call home. […] This means finding half a dozen priests of personal integrity in whom the Holy Spirit visibly moves. It means doing whatever is possible to get these half-dozen on television as frequently as possible. […] If the Church is brave enough to become a fisher of men once more in Britain, it may find its nets very full indeed.”
Click to expand...
Source: How Catholics can reclaim Britain
 
Last edited:
thomasjefferson said:
For me Christianity offered an alternative to the rampant consumerism and immorality we face every day here in Britain. I really think the church should market itself on these contentious issues.
Click to expand...
That’s interesting. How do you deal with the rampant skepticism that seems pervasive in Britain?
 
I’ve heard it said that the reason Britain is so skeptical is owed to the destruction of life caused by the first and second world wars (it is suggested that although the US suffered large casualties that they weren’t on the same scale (percentage per capita) as the UK) but I don’t buy that as an argument. What about France who suffered huge casualties also and are still devoutly Catholic?

My personal feeling is that the watering down of Catholicism caused by our “Anglicanisation” is what’s responsible. As I quoted earlier
thomasjefferson said:
“A rational faith will also always be an argumentative faith”
Click to expand...
and for me the Anglican church has let the balance slip here by appealing to social justice arguments. The Catholic church has stood by its doctrines in the face of any challenge, unpopular or not (just like Jesus did) and for me this gives the church credibility.

The way I personally deal with skepticism (which is rife amongst almost everyone I know) is to use the reason arguments provided by CA and people like Frank Turek. It’s said how many people trot out the same pseudo scientific Richard Dawkins garbage without studying the logical integrity of the arguments in any detail.

The socially acceptable modus operandi in Britain is Atheist/Agnostic. As a Catholic convert (for religious reasons ie not “so I could get my son/daughter into Catholic school”) I am normally met with either mockery, a confused silence or an attitude of “oh isn’t it quaint how you still believe in all the God stuff!?”.
 
thomasjefferson said:
I’ve heard it said that the reason Britain is so skeptical is owed to the destruction of life caused by the first and second world wars (it is suggested that although the US suffered large casualties that they weren’t on the same scale (percentage per capita) as the UK) but I don’t buy that as an argument. What about France who suffered huge casualties also and are still devoutly Catholic?
Click to expand...
It’s true that the US did not suffer anywhere near the devastation in the world wars that England did. We weren’t getting bombed and didn’t have the long-term food shortages and such. We also didn’t get involved in WWI till close to the end of the war, so did not suffer the great losses of men that the European countries did.

Not sure that France is a great example of “devout” Catholicism though. Many of them are Catholic in name only and do not really practice or keep up their obligations as Catholics.
and for me the Anglican church has let the balance slip here by appealing to social justice arguments. The Catholic church has stood by its doctrines in the face of any challenge, unpopular or not (just like Jesus did) and for me this gives the church credibility.
Click to expand...
That is also my impression, that the Anglican Church today, from an official standpoint, seems to be very “trendy” and SJW in its approach and has been that way for many years. It doesn’t seem to be helping their numbers in terms of membership though.
many people trot out the same pseudo scientific Richard Dawkins garbage without studying the logical integrity of the arguments in any detail.
Click to expand...
In my experience, Dawkins has become the darling of everybody who dislikes religion already or finds religion “too difficult” because it “causes wars” or whatever, and just wants some expert to point to in order to have some justification beyond, “I don’t like it” without having to put a lot of thought into it. “Hey, this Dawkins guy is a well respected expert, I can share his post and get 20 “likes” from my Facebook friends, then I’m going out for a pizza.”
The socially acceptable modus operandi in Britain is Atheist/Agnostic.
Click to expand...
I’ve noticed this and while I can sort of understand it in a country that is likely very tired from many wars, including in the past many religious wars, it seems sad to me. About the only positive is that there’s not much chance of them getting their Catholic/ Christian faith all tangled up with nationalism or anti-immigrant sentiment, unlike some of the other European countries.
As a Catholic convert (for religious reasons ie not “so I could get my son/daughter into Catholic school”) I am normally met with either mockery, a confused silence or an attitude of “oh isn’t it quaint how you still believe in all the God stuff!?”.
Click to expand...
This from the country that gave us the Oxford movement, Lewis, Greene. Ah well, they were going a bit against the tide for their times also.
 
Last edited:
In the nicest way possible, it’s somewhat silly to argue that current Britain thinks x because of World War 2 events. The best scientific literature on national culture comes from geert hofstede, If we compare say the UK and Italy using his data we see that Britain has a lower power distance index ( 35 vrs 50), a higher individualism (89 vrs 76) and a lower uncertainty avoidance (35 vrs 75). All of these can help explain why Catholicism is a harder sell in the UK than Italy.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Not sure that France is a great example of “devout” Catholicism though. Many of them are Catholic in name only and do not really practice or keep up their obligations as Catholics.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree to some extent but there is still very much all the vestiges of Catholic infrastructure and it is an intrinsic part of society. The polarization comes because the French constitution is firmly secular which is why there is such a backlash when church/state lines risk being crossed.
Tis_Bearself said:
This from the country that gave us the Oxford movement, Lewis, Greene. Ah well, they were going a bit against the tide for their times also.
Click to expand...
I maintain that we need to come out in favour of reason logic if we are to win the minds of British people today. If only we could pull them away from snapchat for 5 mins.
 
stupidisasstupiddoes said:
In the nicest way possible, it’s somewhat silly to argue that current Britain thinks x because of World War 2 events. The best scientific literature on national culture comes from geert hofstede, If we compare say the UK and Italy using his data we see that Britain has a lower power distance index ( 35 vrs 50), a higher individualism (89 vrs 76) and a lower uncertainty avoidance (35 vrs 75). All of these can help explain why Catholicism is a harder sell in the UK than Italy.
Click to expand...
Yes I don’t think I agree with the idea but not sure I’d call it ‘silly’ either. I think the truth probably lies somewhere between the evidence presented by both the qualitative and quantitative data.
 
The problem with reason and logic is that you can only take it so far when it comes to religion - then you will run into a block and need Faith to take over.
Faith is a gift, not everyone gets it.
I can also see it being very hard for someone who wasn’t raised with the idea of faith to suddenly start in having it.
 
Over 50 studies have confirmed the empirical validity Hofstede’s work. If you could share the studies that explain the WW2 devastation theory then i would be interested to read them.
 
I sort of agree, i do groan when you see ‘intellectuals’ debating whether God exists. Stupid bloody argument that nobody can win. Some people say “i don’t believe in God because you can’t prove he exists” to which I just think “well I don’t believe in atheism because you can’t prove he doesn’t”. However, empirically and circumstantially the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of religion. The funny thing is that when people have no religion, they invent one. You cannot fail to notice the similarities between religion and the North Korean adoration of the Kim dynasty, of Mao’s cult of personality, the dogma of Richard Dawkins and the reverence of communism in the Soviet Union. Everyone is religious, some of us believe in God.
 
stupidisasstupiddoes said:
Over 50 studies have confirmed the empirical validity Hofstede’s work. If you could share the studies that explain the WW2 devastation theory then i would be interested to read them.
Click to expand...
I think perhaps you thought I was challenging your evidence… I wasn’t.

Not sure where I heard it - I read things… sometimes I even remember them!
 
No, you can take what I said literally, i wasn’t being facetious. In statistics you have ‘effect size’ so whenever there is a correlation, you can square it and then explain the probability differences between two groups (e.g. Catholics vrs Protestants). The stronger the correlation, the bigger the probability. I’m suggesting to you that if there is an effect from WW2 then i would expect it to be very small, whilst i think the factors i mentioned would explain a lot of the variance. It wasn’t an either or.
 
On another but related note, as a person who loves England I’ve been reading several of Eamon Duffy’s works, such as The Stripping of the Altars, that provide a fascinating Catholic perspective on the thriving Catholic parish and community life in England just before the Reformation and then the Reformation’s aftermath. It is certainly an object lesson in how even a vibrant faith community can be destroyed/diminished within one generation. I pray for England, our Lady’s Dowry.

I really recommend Duffy-an excellent writer.
 
All religions are potentially a generation away from disappearing when you think about it. I don’t think the groups (sometimes cliques) serving in church always think about who will take over when they are no longer able to serve.
 
thomasjefferson said:
I have always been impressed with (…) brave approach to rationality - facing it head on. (…) and I’ve found that in abundance (particularly on CA).
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t go as far as putting “brave rationality” and “abundance of it on CA” in the same paragraph.
 
I felt it was a good joke, both accurate and opportune 😃 I’ve seen so much nonsense here -and was expecting theological debates- and staggering denial. At first I imagined a merry bunch yet as time passed, found the disillusion ensuing illusion. With all colors of evil rational, some brush strokes of quality more by exception than norm.
 
Last edited:
thank you for explaining! yes by CA I meant Catholic answers as in the radio show - not Catholic answers forum! I understand the confusion there! 😂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top