G
Godfollower
Guest
Matthew 16:16-19.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
So what you’re saying with the highlighted part is that Jesus said his Church will be protected?Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.** And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.**
What I gather from this, just so I am clear, is that while others may claim that the Catholic Church has been corrupted, Jesus has already said that his Church will be protected so that means it cannot be corrupted. This then tells me that claims that the Catholic Church has been corrupted is essentially calling Jesus a liar? And that God cannot even protect His own Church?
Hrm. Sounds pretty bad - to make these claims about Jesus.
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
If Satan’s running the Catholic Church, I find it odd that we have 3 readings and a Psalm at Mass on Sundays/2 readings and a Psalm during weekday Mass. I mean, does Satan want us reading Scripture?My follow up question to this thread is:
Many protestants come back with essentially saying that the roman catholic church has been infected by satan and is now being run by him. i.e. The implication is that maybe at one point the Catholic church was righteous, but now it is not.
How do you defend against that?
That’s how I would respond.
S
Stephentlig
Guest
I cant find the exact qoutes from catholic apologist John salza so the first paragraph is my words and memory. the second paragraph is a qoute from his book ''The biblical basis for the catholic faith.My follow up question to this thread is:
Many protestants come back with essentially saying that the roman catholic church has been infected by satan and is now being run by him. i.e. The implication is that maybe at one point the Catholic church was righteous, but now it is not.
How do you defend against that?
First of all they are using the ''your church has sinners" arguement and it is fallacious, we dont judge catholism and protestentism on the conduct of its members but whether or not it teaches truth in accordance with sacred scripture and tradition.
but if they really wanna use conduct as their litmus test, then why not point out all the great saints the catholic churched has produced also? like mother theresa, and st.francis of assisi, st.jose escriva to just name a few, also tell them that the catholic church is also the biggest defenders of life when it comes to abortion were as the all the protestents buckled in comprimise.
‘‘When did the church drift off into apostosy? What year? also, on what specific doctrinal issues did the church abandon the true faith? Further, who made this judgment that the church went into apostosy? and by what authority? Such an arguement poses insurmountable problems and unanswerable questions for those who accuse the church of apostasy. Such an arguement also makes a liar of Jesus, Who said that the gates of hell would never prevail against his church ( see Mt 16:18 ).’’ ***( John Salza ) ***
www.scripturecatholic.com
when speaking to our protestent brothers on our faith this website by John salza is a great site to better help them understand why we are catholic.
God bless you
Stephen<3
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
Matthew 16:16-19.
Ooh! Then I did deduce correctly from Mt 16:18 that to say that the Church was in apostasy would be calling Jesus a liar!I cant find the exact qoutes from catholic apologist John salza so the first paragraph is my words and memory. the second paragraph is a qoute from his book ''The biblical basis for the catholic faith.
First of all they are using the ''your church has sinners" arguement and it is fallacious, we dont judge catholism and protestentism on the conduct of its members but whether or not it teaches truth in accordance with sacred scripture and tradition.
but if they really wanna use conduct as their litmus test, then why not point out all the great saints the catholic churched has produced also? like mother theresa, and st.francis of assisi, st.jose escriva to just name a few, also tell them that the catholic church is also the biggest defenders of life when it comes to abortion were as the all the protestents buckled in comprimise.
‘‘When did the church drift off into apostosy? What year? also, on what specific doctrinal issues did the church abandon the true faith? Further, who made this judgment that the church went into apostosy? and by what authority? Such an arguement poses insurmountable problems and unanswerable questions for those who accuse the church of apostasy. Such an arguement also makes a liar of Jesus, Who said that the gates of hell would never prevail against his church ( see Mt 16:18 ).’’ ***( John Salza ) ***
www.scripturecatholic.com
when speaking to our protestent brothers on our faith this website by John salza is a great site to better help them understand why we are catholic.
God bless you
Stephen<3
I would really love to be a good apologist for the Catholic church. Thank you for pointing this site out. I’ll check it out.
ETA:
One could then add to this: that Jesus DID protect the Church, by having protestants LEAVE it.
G
Godfollower
Guest
Godfollower;5187878:
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:16-19.So what you’re saying with the highlighted part is that Jesus said his Church will be protected?
What I gather from this, just so I am clear, is that while others may claim that the Catholic Church has been corrupted, Jesus has already said that his Church will be protected so that means it cannot be corrupted. This then tells me that claims that the Catholic Church has been corrupted is essentially calling Jesus a liar? And that God cannot even protect His own Church?
Hrm. Sounds pretty bad - to make these claims about Jesus.
The theology here is that Jesus told us He would send us another paraclete – an advocate / defender / counselor / helper – to guide us. That paraclete is the Holy Spirit, who guides and defends the Church. Now, this doesn’t mean the Church always gets whatever some guy in the hierarchy wants at the moment; it just means that the Holy Spirit prevents the Church as a whole from teaching faith and moral erroneously. Individual members of the Church – even people at the highest levels of the hierarchy – have sinned terribly in the history of the Church. But the Church as an institution has never defined God to exclude the Trinity, or defined murder to be okay, or defined Jesus to be merely human or solely divine, and so on.
The very first Pope, St. Peter, denied Jesus three times on the very night of Jesus’ betrayal by one of the first bishops, Judas Iscariot. We aren’t saying that members of the Church (hierarchy or not) are all by definition wonderful people. We’re just saying that what they teach as a body is correct, and we know it to be correct because Jesus said so.
S
Stephentlig
Guest
The Pope is infallible on faith and morals not on his conduct, in this peice of scripture Jesus was protecting Peter from making error on faith and morals not on his conduct.So what you’re saying with the highlighted part is that Jesus said his Church will be protected?
What I gather from this, just so I am clear, is that while others may claim that the Catholic Church has been corrupted, Jesus has already said that his Church will be protected so that means it cannot be corrupted. This then tells me that claims that the Catholic Church has been corrupted is essentially calling Jesus a liar? And that God cannot even protect His own Church?
Hrm. Sounds pretty bad - to make these claims about Jesus.
The church cannot be corrupt on faith and morals otherwise the gates of hell have prevailed.
S
Stephentlig
Guest
but the protestents changed the doctrine on faith and morals something that Jesus protected his church from doing In Matt: 16Ooh! Then I did deduce correctly from Mt 16:18 that to say that the Church was in apostasy would be calling Jesus a liar!
I would really love to be a good apologist for the Catholic church. Thank you for pointing this site out. I’ll check it out.
ETA:
One could then add to this: that Jesus DID protect the Church, by having protestants LEAVE it.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
I don’t understand, please elaborate.but the protestents changed the doctrine on faith and morals something that Jesus protected his church from doing In Matt: 16
S
Stephentlig
Guest
well the protestents made up the novelty of sola scriptura and sola fide right?I don’t understand, please elaborate.
when scripture teaches us that its the Bible and the church.
and also that we can lose our salvation, that its not only by beleiving that we are justified. ( James: 2:24 )
if you wanna understand how Jesus protected his church from making errors on faith and morals then go to www.scripturecatholic.com
so Jesus after protecting his church from making errors on faith and morals isnt just gonna change that status for if he did he’d be contradicting himself and truth cannot contradict truth and also God cannot lie ( Titus : 2:2)
and as scripture says also that a house divided against itself cannot stand.
Stephen<3
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
I’ll definitely be checking out the scripturecatholic.com site.well the protestents made up the novelty of sola scriptura and sola fide right?
when scripture teaches us that its the Bible and the church.
and also that we can lose our salvation, that its not only by beleiving that we are justified. ( James: 2:24 )
if you wanna understand how Jesus protected his church from making errors on faith and morals then go to www.scripturecatholic.com
so Jesus after protecting his church from making errors on faith and morals isnt just gonna change that status for if he did he’d be contradicting himself and truth cannot contradict truth and also God cannot lie ( Titus : 2:2)
and as scripture says also that a house divided against itself cannot stand.
Stephen<3
And I did not realize that it was the protestants that came up with sola sciptura and sola fide. (I don’t eve know what the last one is, but I can look it up.)
I think I am beginning to understand, although still not fully. But I know I will eventually.
S
Stephentlig
Guest
''In addition to their belief in the Bible alone (“sola Scriptura”), most Protestants believe that all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior in order to be justified by God (justification is the process by which man, moved by grace, turns toward God and away from sin, and accepts God’s forgiveness and righteousness). Thus, most Protestants believe that one is justified and saved by His faith in Christ alone (called “sola Fide” or Faith alone). But if this is true, then why does James say that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone? ‘’
(John salza)scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html#X
May God bless you on your journey home to heaven.
Stephen<3
(John salza)scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html#X
May God bless you on your journey home to heaven.
Stephen<3
J
JohnPaul64
Guest
I would say to them: If its man made then try and destroy it. Then when they look at you all puzzled tell them you can’t destroy what God has made, only God can. 2000+ years and counting:thumbsup:I have heard this twice from coworkers - how Catholicism is all man-made and too influenced by man, etc.
What is an appropriate response? Or should I just be quiet?
G
Godfollower
Guest
Sola scriptura is a Latin term (“Scripture alone”) meaning that we should rely only on the Holy Scriptures to learn about our faith. The concept was invented about 500 years ago during the Protestant Reformation. It is erroneous because the Holy Scriptures are only a part of what we are supposed to rely on.I’ll definitely be checking out the scripturecatholic.com site.
And I did not realize that it was the protestants that came up with sola sciptura and sola fide. (I don’t eve know what the last one is, but I can look it up.)
I think I am beginning to understand, although still not fully. But I know I will eventually.
Sola fide is a Latin term (“Faith alone”) meaning that all we need for salvation is faith in Jesus as opposed to, e.g., following His commands (I mean this literally; the believers in Sola fide claim that you kneel down, recite something to the effect of “Lord Jesus, I’m sorry for my sins, and I accept You as my personal Lord and Savior” and – poof! – you’re saved). It was also invented about 500 years ago during the Protestant Reformation. It is erroneous because God requires us to obey Him, not just believe in Him.
A closely related concept is the doctrine of “Once saved, always saved,” which holds that no one who is truly saved can lose his or her salvation, no matter how badly he or she sins afterwards. This doctrine, also invented during the Protestant Reformation, is erroneous because we can lose our salvation, even if we have done everything we’re supposed to do, by sinning mortally against God.
All three concepts were invented by humans bent on overthrowing what they (for various reasons) perceived to be a bad institution, the Church. None of them is supported by the Bible; in fact, all three concepts are expressly contradicted by it.
And most of the people claiming that “Catholicism is a man-made religion” believe in one or more of these three concepts. Ironic, isn’t it?
D
DonLeon
Guest
If satan has infected HMC then Jesus lied when He said that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”…I’d rather believe Jesus and HMC than any protestant or anyone else!My follow up question to this thread is:
Many protestants come back with essentially saying that the roman catholic church has been infected by satan and is now being run by him. i.e. The implication is that maybe at one point the Catholic church was righteous, but now it is not.
How do you defend against that?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I
Incomplete
Guest
Your love for God and His Church shines through in all of this.depending on my mood, i’d probably say, “In your opinion, but my opinion is different, obvously because I’m Catholic, and while I will not argue religion topics with anyone, and especially in the workplace, I’d be happy to answer any question you have. If you don’t have a question why don’t we just respect each other’s opinion and right to religious freedom without having to put each other’s chuch down, and I wish you well and my prayer for any non catholic is always that God’s will be done in your life. Have a nice day.”
One gal at work did this little up down up down thing and crossing herself mockery thing and then said, “Catholics don’t know why they do this up down and up down and making marks on themselves and they never take their Bibles to Church.”
My reply was, “First of all, maybe you need to hang out with better Catholics! Second, the Catholics I hang out with know why we kneel every time we kneel and why we stand up every time we stand up, and we do this out of respect for what is happening in the Mass. And sometimes people don’t have their Bible with them but they hear four readings from the Bible in every Mass which is more than I ever heard even as a preacher’s kid growing up – and the Catholics stand up of respect when the Gospel is read – and by the way my Bible does go with me everywhere.”
I don’t let people mock my Lord or my Church. Whatever I say I say it with a nice tone of voice, and I’m polite, but I make it clear we can either discuss something specific, but we won’t be resorting to just casual put-downs of Christ, His Church, or my fellow Catholics or Christ’s mother, saints, pope, etc.
Oh, someone said something one day about the Church should be closed down because of the priest scandal…I quickly pointed out the protestant preacher scandals I had been aware of growing up protestant, does that mean all protestant churches should be closed down? Or, school teachers have been convicted of child molestation…should we close all public schools?
Most people don’t really know what Catholics believe or do not believe. But they love to take a swipe at the Church anyway. I decided I would stand up to it. All the years I believed in the Church before I was baptized I just kept silent. And they just kept on…I’m not silent any longer. They can go mock something else, but not my Lord, not His Church, and not his Mother either, or the saints, or pope, etc. (I love them all.)
When people are allowed to do that in the workplace, they open themselves up to a heap of trouble if someone wants to make a case out of it.
Just my 2 cents. I have found the more I learn the easier it is to respond back.
I said something to a gal today I was doing some beading with. She and I used to belong to same southern baptist church 25 years ago. I was explaining my conditional baptism in the Church and said “because after all ‘there is only one baptism for forgiveness of sins.’” She gave me a look like all confused like, “there is???” HAHA That’s becausse those protestants never preached on that since they didn’t believe baptism had anything to do with sin, it was just a symbol showing you were following Christ.
I did tell her I had found in the Church the complete fullness of faith and truth. And I told her about the finding out that Christ is really presence in the Mass – versus grapes and crackers that are a mere symbol. And that was all that was said, we then went back to our beads.
Thank you for taking the time for this post.
D
daeve
Guest
So when they say it’s a man made religion, we say, “Yes, and that man was Jesus Christ.” I like that.ALL religions are man-made.
Our Church is man-made, too. Jesus Christ was fully human.
He also happened to be fully divine. I don’t think that was true of the people who split away from the Church He founded.
H
HeWillProvide
Guest
I think what they are referring to when it comes to “man made” is that throughout the years, things were added to church tradition - they weren’t there in the beginning and man/priests/whoever has simply added them in.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.