Catholicism is pagan

[cathymat]

Here is everything you need to demonstrate that Catholicism is biblical. Everything your friend is complaining about is Jewish in origin, not pagan. Easter and Christmas overlap Passover and Hanukkah respectively, the differences being a result of calendar drift.

Your friend needs to think about what she is saying. If the Catholic Church lost the truth around the time of Constantine in the 300s, and no one was a “real Christian” until Luther came along in the 1500s, God failed in His will.
[bibledrb]1 Tim 2:3-4[/bibledrb]
I am sure your friend doesn’t intend to call God a failure but that is what she is doing.

Well, she is trying not to do this, but is showing a very anti-Catholic side. She is trying to be respectful, but I feel she thinks the Church is evil. She does not claim to any denomination. It has been quite an interesting debate. Thanks to all for the help.

 

[cathymat]

I found this article from Biblical Archeology Review magazine to be very interesting. The idea that the Church deliberately chose the winter solstice to celebrate the birth of our Lord was a later idea. The more ancient thought is that Jesus was conceived on (what is now known as) March 25 (which is also the date of his crucifixion), and so his birth 9 months later would be on what is now known as December 25. The thinking was that it was simply God’s providence that the Son should enter the world during the pagan festivals celebrating the sun.
As far as celebrating on the 25th of December (or the 6th of January, as they do in the East) we are not necessarily celebrating Jesus’ birthday. That is, we are not celebrating the day, itself, and we are not necessarily celebrating the fact that person called Jesus was born. We are celebrating the profound theological truth that God the Son chose to take on human flesh. We are celebrating the Incarnation of the Son. Whether there are any of the modern trappings or not-- decorated tree, gifts, big dinner, etc.-- is irrelevant. We would still be celebrating Christmas, the Feast of the Incarnation, because it is not just some regular old birthday party. It is God lowering Himself to become man, so that He might one day raise man up to Himself.

Thanks! I will check this out and share with her.

 

[cathymat]

Please forgive me for jumping in here; The commentary by Gill on Deut.12:29 refers the reader to Deuteronomy 7:1- 6, which has mention of,

That person really needs to dust-off his copy of Dale Carnegie’s, “How to Win Friends and Influence People”

My advice to “cathymat” is to distance yourself from such a person, as even if you succeed in answering their accusations they will not stop attacking the Church.

Protector.

Thanks. I find her to be a very lost soul, but I am proceeding with caution. In onine debates she did defend my position on calling our priests Father when many were trashing the Church. However, I do proceed with caution. Pray for all those who are searching, but are still very lost.

 

[cathymat]

“Particularly brthdays” I do know of at least one non-Catholic religion that shuns birthdays and Christmas, and perhaps it is to this that your friend refers.

The bible doesn’t mention other modern customary celebrations either, so must they be shunned by Christians?
Sports such a baseball, or tennis, or golf, or football are greatly celebrated by those who have interest in them, and are not mentioned in the bible, so are they therefore must be shunned?

Certainly sports are way above birthdays in the degree of celebration that they evidence, and I certainly have not seen mention of these sports in the Bible, nor honored for celebration in the Bible…
The Bible doesn’t tell Americans to celebrate Independence Day, July 4, or Thanksgiving, therefore should Christians not celebrate those?

This might be the kind of answer that comes to my mind in answer to the need to reject every celebration that is not mentioned in the bible, of which birthdays is possible one of the least harmful. No broken bones in birthdays! Cake, nice food, happy company, a few gifts. But though I do know the harm that refusal to celebrate birthdays and Christmas did to my nephews when their mother spent a few years in a particular non-Catholic religion, (is that a desirable outcome, the hurt of children?) I know the harmless joy that birthdays have brought to many others. It’s my birthday at the weekend, and my sister-in-law is having us to dinner, and I’ll have phone-calls from absent interState family, and though it’s not mentioned in the Bible, I do rather expect the Lord won’t be offended. After all I was born into this world on that day, loved into existence by God…cause to celebrate God’s goodness to my loved ones and me.

"Putting ourselves above God" so if we do anything for each other or for ourselves we could be said to be putting ourselves first before God?
**Jesus stated clearly that when we do anything kind for another person we are doing it to HIM **

I have asked her specifically what celebrations she does participate in (religious & secular) with exactly what you have pointed out in mind. I appreciate the scripture verses. She does not wish to label herself of any particular religion, but does lean toward sola-scriptura approach (definitely mixing multiple belief systems together though). Thanks for the help.

 

[stewstew03]

The early Church took over these festivals in the hopes of gaining new converts.

Even if this is true, I don’t understand the objection. Are you actually complaining that Christianity hijacked Saturnalia?

 

[Protector]

vsedriver;8660638] Ask her for proof. What gods did the Church replace? Then tell he why we celebrate Christmas in Dec. It’s because we are not celebrating Jesus’ birthDAY but his BIRTH. Since no one knows when he was born his birth is celebrated at that time of year when the day will begin to lengthen because it clearly tells everyone that Jesus, the Light of the World has come!
Pagans had celebrations all year round. There are only so many days in the year. It was inevitable that some feast days and celebrations would overlap.

That is very informative, and is a possible explanation as to why the Church removed(?) St Christopher’s name from the calendar. As to the birth date of our Lord, the following link gives a possible answer to the question. www.biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm

Have a very Happy Christmas everybody!

Protector.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

I still don’t understand why people don’t like Christmas and Easter. The Church uses them to bring the Gospel to the world, converting the old to serve the true light. It is like us, our body which used to sin now used for His glory

 

[Catholic80]

. She does quote the New Testament some, but relies heavily on the Old Testament.

There is a reason there is a NEW Testament… It goes hand in hand with the OT. Christ fulfills the covenant and the law. He makes all things new. We need the OT, but we also need to pay attention to what happens in the NT because it fulfills the OT.

If there is a quote in the OT where it clearly states that Peter is the rock… etc. then it’s foolish to ignore it and say, “but the OT says…” God’s Word is God’s Word.

A side note… many protestants try to argue the Greek word for “rock” being feminine, and the Greek word for “pebble” being masculine. In the Greek, the literal translation of Peter is “petros,” which means pebble. “Petra,” which means “rock”, is feminine.
The original language of the Bible uses this “petros” which many protestants take to be a sign that Christ was really saying, "Peter, you are a pebble, and upon this rock (Myself) I will build My church.
The error in their argument is that while the Greek does use these words, the original language that Christ spoke to Peter in was Aramaic. It would be an insult to translate the Aramaic word for rock, “Kephas” into a feminine noun when referring to Peter, a man. So, in the Greek, the masculine word is used. But the original language spoken, Christ says, “Kephas” which indeed is “Rock.”