Catholicism is too structured?

  • Thread starter Thread starter theunworthyservant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

theunworthyservant

Guest
A friend of mine is an Evangelical Christian, and I am trying to inform her on the Catholic faith (in hopes that she might convert). Her main objection about the Catholic faith is that it is much too structured. She finds that morning prayers, grace before meals, and even the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is too confining. The constant routine of sitting, standing, and kneeling makes her uncomfortable as it prevents her from worshiping in her own, free way. I have explained that the liturgical actions and and prayers are an act of worship, but she finds it insincere since it is not heartfelt, but rather just people following instructions and the priest reading words from a book. I also explained that the parts of the Mass, and the many other prayers in the Church are all (in some way) of Biblical origin. She responds by saying that in her church, their worship consists of the same Biblical contents as the Mass, just in a different way. I have presented hard proof that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but she has made it obvious that her preference precedes what is right and true. It is hard to convert someone who’s personal preference blinds their sense of logic. How do I go about trying to help her out of this, and change her views on worship and the faith?
 
Last edited:
As frustrating and saddening as it can be to watch someone you care about stubbornly dismiss arguments, argumentation is not the only, or even the best, way to evangelize. I’ve struggled with failing to convince people I care about too. We just want them home as soon as possible, we want them to accept and acknowledge the truth for the sake of their souls.

However, the advice I have always gotten is to be patient and pray. Practice your faith to the fullest you can, and let them come as they did to the apostles. Trust in God’s timing. Do not worry about convincing with arguments. After you have spoken the truth, just be a witness to the faith. Have hope in the conversion stories of others. It can take a long time.
 
If her issue is with structure, then she’s going to have to reconcile the book of Leviticus with her idea of “a God without structure”. The book is all about the duties of the Levitical priests and sacrifice in (eventually) the Temple. For example:

“The Lord said to Moses, “Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering. The burnt offering shall be on the hearth upon the altar all night until the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be kept burning on it. And the priest shall put on his linen garment, and put his linen breeches upon his body, and he shall take up the ashes to which the fire has consumed the burnt offering on the altar, and put them beside the altar. Then he shall put off his garments, and put on other garments, and carry forth the ashes outside the camp to a clean place. The fire on the altar shall be kept burning on it, it shall not go out; the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and he shall lay the burnt offering in order upon it, and shall burn on it the fat of the peace offerings. Fire shall be kept burning upon the altar continually; it shall not go out.” Leviticus 6:8-13

Why did a priest really need to put on his garments, only to take them off after performing a single task, and to then put on different garments? Doesn’t this seem “a bit too complicated” or, perhaps, “too structured”?

Still, pointing as much out likely won’t get you far. Someone who is dead set on not becoming Catholic may well be beyond human help. Only God can work within them to bring them to truth.
 
I was an evangelical for years. Now I find that type of worship too loose and unstructured. It depends too much on the whims of one man, the pastor. And he may be a good and holy person.
But the Holy Spirit really can work through the liturgy, prayers, music, and of course the mass in the Catholic church. There is something solid at the core of the mass, which is lacking in evangelical worship. But unless you’ve experienced it, it’s hard to explain.
I would just pray for your friend.
 
theunworthyservant said:
How do I go about trying to help her out of this, and change her views on worship and the faith?
Click to expand...
She would have to believe that the Catholic faith is actually true first of all. If she doesn’t believe in its doctrines, line of succession etc, you can’t really expect her to care that much about reverence imo. If I wasn’t Catholic, I would probably feel the same way she does.

You can ask her point blank if she believes in the Catholic faith, even if she doesn’t like the practices first.
 
You can’t convert someone who doesn’t have an open mind to Catholic truth and Catholic practice. If she were truly interested in Catholicism, she’d be focusing on the important factors of belief, not on whether she has to stand or kneel at various points in the Mass. She’d also be open to learning that outside of Mass, there is no requirement for Catholics to pray structured prayers and she could spend all day doing freeform Father God invocations if she wanted, and that Catholics also have a Charismatic movement which blends a lot of evangelical-style worship elements into the Mass.

But she’s clearly not open to any of this, so let it go, it’s her loss.
She doesn’t want to be converted.
 
Last edited:
theunworthyservant said:
She finds that morning prayers,
Click to expand...
As in the Divine Office? Catholic laity are not obligated to pray the Office.
Asking God to bless meals is a good practice to get into , whatever denomination we ascribe to.

Which Mass are you explaining to her?
 
Last edited:
Sometimes you can just plant a seed. Just be positive, explain your viewpoint the best you can, be a good friend and Christian example, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest!
When I look back on my journey into the church, there were many different people and events that drew me in. It was a multi-year, even a multi-decade process.
 
Last edited:
I attended one service in an " Evangelical" church because a very close friend was performing during the service. My impression was that the service seemed directed at Christians with ADD. They had jumbo- trons( 2) one would have a video left, the next right, then the band would kick it, then the pastor, sitting in what looked like the set of “All in the Family,” ( with Archie’s chair, with a lamp and not a cross in the building).
Trying to be constructive here, you are in fact suggesting she change to a service that cannot compete in terms of " sensory stimulation."
Your friend felt negative about the confinement of our mass, which I interpret as describing something more structured than what she is used to.
All that said, you have to listen to her concerns and address those first. Here is my two cents:
Our structure in mass sort of conceals the incredible amount of thought and work that has gone into it’s creation. It is a true work of art in it’s content, all that content touches on, and the way it touches on a large death of faith issues in an economy of words. It is obviously a colaboration of talented and learned men which attests to it’s soundness.
I think ," what it is," is it’s selling point, and not," what it isn’t." Ritual is inherently boring because it is designed as repetition. On the other hand we use symbols and sacraments precisely to get us to focus on the most profound mysteries and truths of faith that cannot be grasped in one shot. The icons, and our symbolism cause us to stop to think more deeply about the most important ideas and mysteries. FOCUS YOUR FRIEND ON THE TIGHTLY PACKED CONTENT. AND THAT SPIRITUAL IDEAS require frequent revisiting. One pass on a jumbo Tron video won’t do it.
The Eucharist is the biggest difference along with the liturgy of the Eucharist. There is the liturgy of the Word of course.
I recalled my experience because I think I would not really appreciate why I prefer our service if I hadn’t.
They have no communion.
I also couldn’t help but notice that all of the stimulation seemed entertaining yes, but I would describe it as freestyle with no real emphasis. Every single church has a Pastor who puts together a program of " stuff". If the pastor happens to be the second coming of Thomas Aquinas, you can theoretically put together a service as good as ours. But the odds are most are not that gifted. Add to that, I don’t see that there is the benefit of collaboration taking from the best of many men’s contribution. So whatever the final product, it is one guys idea( or a finite group). Wherever you decide to go for a service, you are at the mercy of one guys inevitable quirks and inadequacies. There is no," quality control," so to speak. That stood out to me. This ," service" might be awesome or terrible, and how am I supposed to know which. It’s a free for all. Can you trust one guy over all Sundays? This question I about personable, knowledgeable, or a criticism of any particular pastor. But he is one guy.
So I would emphasize the beauty and fullness of our services. So it doesn’t seem like lots of mumbles and getting up and down.
 
Last edited:
Think about the question you are asking, then turn it around. What if it is your friend asking “What can I do to convert my Catholic friend to my religion?” I assume your answer would be “Nothing. I don’t want to be converted. I believe my faith is the true faith”.

No doubt your friend feels the same way. Although I am sure your intentions are good, think about what it is you are trying to achieve here.

It doesn’t sound like your friend is interested in converting to your religion. I would suggest respecting that, if you wish to remain friends.
 
theunworthyservant said:
I have presented hard proof…

her preference precedes what is right and true…

personal preference blinds their sense of logic…
Click to expand...
Logic and proof are not going to work because the Christian faith is not about logic and proof.
How do I go about trying to help her…?
Click to expand...
First, look with charity on her and her faith and her worship. You are focusing on the differences, who’s right and who’s wrong, but you should start from what you have in common. If she loves God, and believes that Jesus is her Lord and Savior, and if she knows and follows the Commandments, the two of you are not far apart but very close! Give thanks and praise to God for the elements of faith that you agree upon.

Second, talk about your faith and the Catholic faith from fundamentals, like life and love.

By life, I mean human life, the dignity and respect due to each person, created in the image and likeness of God, and personally loved and cherished by God. Many Catholic teachings, and maybe even the whole Gospel, stand firmly on this foundation.

By love, I mean God’s love and providence, our love of God, and our love of one another. “This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35) And this – having, showing, and living love – is probably the best way to lead your friend to Catholicism.
 
Last edited:
theunworthyservant said:
The constant routine of sitting, standing, and kneeling makes her uncomfortable as it prevents her from worshiping in her own, free way. I have explained that the liturgical actions and and prayers are an act of worship, but she finds it insincere since it is not heartfelt,
Click to expand...
That seems typical of a Christian in the more Evangelical/Charismatic tradition. It’s all about the feels. Even some Catholics who I’ve encountered in Charismatic circles can be guilty of this emotional reasoning.

You could ask why she thinks the structure and order of the Church, instituted by God, is inferior to the kind f worship that she prefers. The difference between you is that s/he is led by feelings and you understand the supernatural aspect of the Mass.
Ultimately, there’s nothing you can do to force her to change, but perhaps if she understands more she may come to a greater appreciation of it.
 
Thank you, Father. Yes, faith and reason… Perhaps I should have added, to my previous post, that some people are more amenable to the rational approach. I’m all for it myself.
 
Last edited:
theunworthyservant said:
A friend of mine is an Evangelical Christian, and I am trying to inform her on the Catholic faith (in hopes that she might convert). Her main objection about the Catholic faith is that it is much too structured. She finds that morning prayers, grace before meals, and even the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is too confining. The constant routine of sitting, standing, and kneeling makes her uncomfortable as it prevents her from worshiping in her own, free way. I have explained that the liturgical actions and and prayers are an act of worship, but she finds it insincere since it is not heartfelt, but rather just people following instructions and the priest reading words from a book. I also explained that the parts of the Mass, and the many other prayers in the Church are all (in some way) of Biblical origin. She responds by saying that in her church, their worship consists of the same Biblical contents as the Mass, just in a different way. I have presented hard proof that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but she has made it obvious that her preference precedes what is right and true. It is hard to convert someone who’s personal preference blinds their sense of logic. How do I go about trying to help her out of this, and change her views on worship and the faith?
Click to expand...
Evangelical Christianity is very much structured. People know when to sing, when to sit, when to listen to the sermon, when to give during offerings, and a number of other things. A person can’t start praying out loud for everybody while the preacher is in the middle of a sermon. A person can’t sing a different song while the congregation is singing a certain song. A person can’t start preaching from the Bible while everybody else is saying the Lord’s Prayer, and so on and so forth. Some structure is an inevitable reality in any community of people and this is for the well-being of everybody.

The Catholic liturgy is rich in symbolism and meaning and worshiping with the whole body. Sometimes there are pamphlets or books in the sanctuary that provide guides and insights throughout the Mass and these have been enlightening to a great many people.
 
Last edited:
If we drop efforts at evangelization because people merely don’t want to hear our story, we’re not going to help very many people get to Heaven.

Before giving up, or assuming, that nothing else will work, I suggest that you read John Chapter 6 with your friend. Especially “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.”

We have the bread of life. Evangelicals, and others do not. They don’t even claim to have it.

If nothing else, you’d be planting a powerful seed that may grow in the future.

IMHO
 
I come across this argument against the Catholic faith as well. Apparently we are too oriented around ,“routine and ritual.” What they don’t realize is the fact that everyone has routine and ritual in their everyday lives. We take it seriously in the liturgy.
When you prepare a meal you work in a kitchen usually while standing at a counter.
When you eat you usually sit at a table with family.
When you want to go out with someone you go through a routine to get ready and become presentable.
When you drive you buckle up for safety and you look before you move the car.
When you communicate with someone about something very important you have very subtle gestures and movements to persuade and connect through body language.
The list is endless involving every aspect of life. Yet when they see us bowing, sitting, standing, etc… to be as one flock they think we are foolish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top