Catholicism on tolerance and a family problem

[Philae]

Well, while the Church considers you a member of the Body of Christ due to your baptism (confirmation, as well?), this does not limit your freedom to decide to leave the Church. That’s up to you. No one can make you believe/practice any religion. It’s a matter of canon law that you are a Catholic not of your rights as an individual, you see.

I was never confirmed, no. My family practises baptism, I guess, probably out of a sense of needing tradition. I think the loss of Catholicism probably left them with nothing and keeping up the ritualism and, to a lesser extent, identity gave some sort of bedrock. My grandparents suffered quite deeply when they broke from the Church and it was my nan who suggested I formally split (alas, no longer done). At the same time, she believes in baptism as something you “just ought to do” though I think the recent events have changed that. I think there was also the romanticism of Celtic Christianity, its mythology and depth, compared to the dominant Protestant religion around them at the time.

As I said, I don’t want to discuss the details of my feelings about Catholicism, but I thought it would be obvious they are extremely negative. It’s not how my aunt reacted, I could dismiss that as an isolated incident, it’s the stuff I’ve discovered afterwards in your canon law.

Not just that, it’s a lot of the Catholics themselves. Look at 1ke, Crezzato or FAB. All of them have pushed a certain line, either supporting my aunt’s extreme position or trying to engage me in a debate themselves, even though the purpose was to stop a Catholic family member doing something that will potentially damage her life and her relationship with her family.

This is also why I can’t really answer your last paragraph. I never left Catholicism, this whole being a permenant member issue is a point on which we simply will never agree. When I became religious, it was ten years ago, and it wasn’t a choice to embrace a religious belief then weighing up the views of various religions, giving my ancestors’ religion an equal chance or special consideration. It was a deeply complex and rich set of personal experiences that were all rooted in a single spark.

And this is the other problem with the “give the Church a chance” position. After all this, forming the opinions I have, haven’t I given the Church a chance? I’ve looked at what the Church teaches on many philosophical and spiritual issues that relate to my situation as well as the people these teachings have shaped and it has not left a good impression. At what point have I given the Church enough of a chance? I don’t think anyone here, no matter how throughly I have studied Catholicism, would ever agree enough.

 

[Della]

I was never confirmed, no. My family practises baptism, I guess, probably out of a sense of needing tradition. I think the loss of Catholicism probably left them with nothing and keeping up the ritualism and, to a lesser extent, identity gave some sort of bedrock. My grandparents suffered quite deeply when they broke from the Church and it was my nan who suggested I formally split (alas, no longer done). At the same time, she believes in baptism as something you “just ought to do” though I think the recent events have changed that. I think there was also the romanticism of Celtic Christianity, its mythology and depth, compared to the dominant Protestant religion around them at the time.

As I said, I don’t want to discuss the details of my feelings about Catholicism, but I thought it would be obvious they are extremely negative. It’s not how my aunt reacted, I could dismiss that as an isolated incident, it’s the stuff I’ve discovered afterwards in your canon law.

Not just that, it’s a lot of the Catholics themselves. Look at 1ke, Crezzato or FAB. All of them have pushed a certain line, either supporting my aunt’s extreme position or trying to engage me in a debate themselves, even though the purpose was to stop a Catholic family member doing something that will potentially damage her life and her relationship with her family.

This is also why I can’t really answer your last paragraph. I never left Catholicism, this whole being a permenant member issue is a point on which we simply will never agree. When I became religious, it was ten years ago, and it wasn’t a choice to embrace a religious belief then weighing up the views of various religions, giving my ancestors’ religion an equal chance or special consideration. It was a deeply complex and rich set of personal experiences that were all rooted in a single spark.

And this is the other problem with the “give the Church a chance” position. After all this, forming the opinions I have, haven’t I given the Church a chance? I’ve looked at what the Church teaches on many philosophical and spiritual issues that relate to my situation as well as the people these teachings have shaped and it has not left a good impression. At what point have I given the Church enough of a chance? I don’t think anyone here, no matter how throughly I have studied Catholicism, would ever agree enough.

Well, I do not intend nor did I intend to challenge you but to let you know that if what you’ve chosen for your life doesn’t truly meet your spiritual needs, then the Church will always be open and waiting.

Canon law only applies to Catholics, not to those of other faiths. Others are not bound to follow it. Canon law can even be set aside by the pope, if he sees fit. There are quite a few radical traditionalists who are quite in a huff over Pope Francis’s words and actions, for instance, because they think he’s broken canon law, but since he has that authority… Anyway, everyone has an opinion–and that’s free will in operation, isn’t it?

I too find cultural Catholicism–the kind that is passed on “just because” a bad idea. Catholicism is a way of life, not a merely a family tradition. It’s sad when people treat it that way because it gives entirely the wrong impression of what it’s supposed to be. I wish everyone who is a Catholic would have as much strength of will and purpose as you do about not being one. There’d be fewer but better Catholics who truly show Christ’s love for others.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to go on. I just hope you find every happiness in this life and in the next. God bless.

 

[Bergon]

Hello,

I am writing here to seek a possible solution within the doctrines of Catholicism to a very grave problem in my family. I’ll give the short version and forgive me if this is the wrong forum (it seems to discuss doctrine though).

I come from a traditionally Catholic family, only a few actual Catholics remain, but baptism of newborns is still a tradition held. I have never been Catholic and converted in my teens to another religion (about ten years ago). Recently, my aunt became aware of my conversion and has been aggressively harrassing me about it. She believes baptism permenantly makes me Catholic whether I believe or not. She has not particularly bothered the non-religious in our family but has targetted me for, I believe, my non-Christian religious beliefs

I have been discussing this problem with Catholics and I was pointed to several places, finally here and to this document (vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm) as a statement of the Church’s support for my religious freedom. My aunt eventually countered with points 1739 and 1740, claiming that my freedom is limited and fallible and I’ve deviated from moral law by rejecting Jesus (in her language, I never rejected Christianity as I never accepted it).

I want to leave aside how all of this, both her behaviour and the resources I’ve uncovered, has made me feel about Catholicism, I’m here to ask, for the sake of my family’s stability, is there any Catholic catechism or statement that either expressly denies any Church authority over my person despite the baptism or my right to be free of these repeatedly and often aggressive attempts at conversion? Our family, if it came down to out and out conflict, would take my side, but if I can resolve this peacefully via some doctrine of the Church, I would prefer that.

Thank you.

Hello Philae

I’m intrigued why you’ve brought your problem to this forum. I don’t understand why you think Catholocism has the answer. If you no longer believe in the Catholic Faith and in fact are no longer a Christian why are you concerned about what the Church teaches on these issues. I’d have anticipated that you’d defend your beliefs to your aunt. I don’t know if a document exists, and I doubt there is, that’ll say it’s OK to reject the Catholic Faith and no longer submit to Her authority. But, as I said, why are you concerned about Catholic teaching. Why is it that you’re not explaining your beliefs and your religion to your aunt, defending your position based on what you know believe.

To a certain point I understand your aunt’s sentiments - once a Catholic always a Catholic, as the saying goes. She’s not going about it in the right way. In my experience her sort of behaviour only makes people dig their heels in. If she wanted to convince you of her point of view there’s more appropriate ways to go about it. At least she should start by praying for you. Even if the Catholic Church had the document or teaching you want, I doubt your aunt is going to stop what’s she’s doing.

God gave us all free will. No mere mortal human as the right to take away that free choice. In the end it’s you who’ll have to give an account of yourself when God calls you home.

I’ll pray that your aunt will stop her behaviour. Likewise, I’ll pray the Rosary for you to come home.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Your aunt is simply being rude. All you can do is set boundaries. “Religion is not something I wish to discuss. Have you been in the garden? The roses are beautiful today.” “Religion is not something I wish to discuss. I heard you are planning a vacation to the mountains. Where are you planning to go?” And if necessary, “Religion is not something I wish to discuss. If you bring it up again, I will leave.” And then do so.

 

[FAB]

I was never confirmed, no. My family practises baptism, I guess, probably out of a sense of needing tradition. I think the loss of Catholicism probably left them with nothing and keeping up the ritualism and, to a lesser extent, identity gave some sort of bedrock. My grandparents suffered quite deeply when they broke from the Church and it was my nan who suggested I formally split (alas, no longer done). At the same time, she believes in baptism as something you “just ought to do” though I think the recent events have changed that. I think there was also the romanticism of Celtic Christianity, its mythology and depth, compared to the dominant Protestant religion around them at the time.

As I said, I don’t want to discuss the details of my feelings about Catholicism, but I thought it would be obvious they are extremely negative. It’s not how my aunt reacted, I could dismiss that as an isolated incident, it’s the stuff I’ve discovered afterwards in your canon law.

Not just that, it’s a lot of the Catholics themselves. Look at 1ke, Crezzato or FAB. All of them have pushed a certain line, either supporting my aunt’s extreme position or trying to engage me in a debate themselves, even though the purpose was to stop a Catholic family member doing something that will potentially damage her life and her relationship with her family.

This is also why I can’t really answer your last paragraph. I never left Catholicism, this whole being a permenant member issue is a point on which we simply will never agree. When I became religious, it was ten years ago, and it wasn’t a choice to embrace a religious belief then weighing up the views of various religions, giving my ancestors’ religion an equal chance or special consideration. It was a deeply complex and rich set of personal experiences that were all rooted in a single spark.

And this is the other problem with the “give the Church a chance” position. After all this, forming the opinions I have, haven’t I given the Church a chance? I’ve looked at what the Church teaches on many philosophical and spiritual issues that relate to my situation as well as the people these teachings have shaped and it has not left a good impression. At what point have I given the Church enough of a chance? I don’t think anyone here, no matter how throughly I have studied Catholicism, would ever agree enough.

Philae
I do find it odd that you come to a Catholic site to ask how not to be converted to the Catholic faith. From your last pararaph it seems you have a very liitle understanding of the Church. It you did you would know that you are building a permenent relationship with Jesus.
I am always interested in people like you who say they don’t agree with the teaching of the church. So you don’t agree with taking care of the poor, feeding the hungry, finding homes for the homeless, visiting those in prison. Perhaps you don’t believe in the family unit of mother father and child. Perhas protecting life is not your thing. Could it be that you think greed is good and the church teaches we are to share our wealth, or perhaps it’s that whole love your neighbor thing you can’t stand. Is it that we pray for our enemies that gives you pause.
Jesus told us to go out into the world, baptize in his name and spread His gospel. It appears that you have looked to some kind of ancestrial spiritalizm to find truth. Unfortunate for you, it’s not there. The truth is found with Jesus and His church, an if you thought you were going to find another answer, you were mistaken.

 

[Philae]

Hello Philae

I’m intrigued why you’ve brought your problem to this forum. I don’t understand why you think Catholocism has the answer. If you no longer believe in the Catholic Faith and in fact are no longer a Christian why are you concerned about what the Church teaches on these issues. I’d have anticipated that you’d defend your beliefs to your aunt. I don’t know if a document exists, and I doubt there is, that’ll say it’s OK to reject the Catholic Faith and no longer submit to Her authority. But, as I said, why are you concerned about Catholic teaching. Why is it that you’re not explaining your beliefs and your religion to your aunt, defending your position based on what you know believe.

Well, I guess my belief was that if I could find some principle within supporting my religious freedom then she’d either have to deny the doctrine is correct or relent that she ought respect my choice. I was concerned about Catholic teachings inasmuch as I could solve this problem. I realise that was the wrong path to take, it is clear that respect for my freedom of conscience and right to non-interference is not universal amongst Catholics and that my aunt’s actions are supported by quite a few here and elsewhere. It seems some, including the author of that Encyclopedia article I quoted, actively believe in what seems to amount to the Church’s authority to restrict my right to follow my faith in peace (even if only as a reserved right). I was surprised, to be honest, that such a belief was not more confined to Catholicism’s history books.

Well, I do not intend nor did I intend to challenge you but to let you know that if what you’ve chosen for your life doesn’t truly meet your spiritual needs, then the Church will always be open and waiting.

That was a very nice way of putting it. It did not say I owed the Church my loyalty, it did not say I should come home, it didn’t try to tell me I’m making a mistake and argue for Catholicism’s truth petitio principii, it simply said the Church would be open if I needed it, thank you. I wouldn’t have left my own faith, but if more had responded like you did there, I would have developed a different opinion of Catholicism.

As I said, I’m hoping this is behind me and I don’t want to come back to any of this. I think, as I said in response to Bergon, I was naive in thinking I could simply find some catechism or statement from the Church that would calm my aunt down.

 

[Pug]

I’m sorry you are being badgered! She has no right, duty, or need to badger you. That is all on her. I can’t say for sure what your aunt thinks she is doing. You seem to say she claims you’ve deviated from the moral law. If that is her point, then she probably believes her actions fall under “fraternal correction”. But what you describe is not fraternal correction. For starters, she’s doing this in public, in front of family, to the point where she gets thrown out of the house, and it is causing anger in you and is not providing you support and love. From what you’ve shared, your aunt does not have a well founded reason to think you will heed her words, either. If she is somehow confused on that point, explain to her that you will not heed her words, especially since they are coming from someone who has so pointedly harassed and angered you. Only some other person might have a chance of influencing you at this point. Once she hears that, and if she thinks she is “fraternally correcting” you, she ought to lay off. (She might know more modern words, “admonishing apparent sinners”). (The word “apparent” reminds her that she does not know the true state of your heart.).

Tell her the best she can do for you at this point is to stop bugging you and give you a green scapular for your home and pray for you each day. (If you dispose of said scapular, please respectfully burn or bury it, as she will likely have had it blessed). Or, it might also help to have her give you a number for a good priest and then tell her it is up to you to call him or not, and that she must not ask you about it again, may not nag or remind you, etc. Give her some concrete way out of this stuff that she can’t seem to let go of. Some people need a constructive and non-threatening exit strategy provided to them. A Catholic would likely think one or the other of those options is constructive.

(a scapular is a small piece of cloth)

 

[FAB]

I was naive in thinking I could simply find some catechism or statement from the Church that would calm my aunt down.

So you were hoping that there is a church doctrine that would restrict your aunt’s freedom to practice her faith as she sees fit, so you can have the freedom to practice your beliefs the way you see fit without any restrictions.
Do you understand the problem here?

 

[crazzeto]

The lady has been so persistent and annoying even his grandmother had to ask the aunt to leave her home. Sounds more like she’s got a problem with personal boundaries than mere concern. He wrote that she corners him at every family gathering to preach at him. I wouldn’t want a family member doing that to me, either. I agree that her intentions may be the best, but her methods certainly aren’t making a change for the better. So, it would best, even if she isn’t being as annoying as he says–it’s his impression of the situation that matters, IMHO, if she dropped the topic for now and simply prayed for him.

It could well be (and sounds likely) that this aunt has real interpersonal issues understanding boundaries. I don’t think you can solve this problem using the doctrines of the Church, but rather with patience, consistency and firmness. This isn’t an issue of doctrine of faith, it’s a relationship issue.

 

[1ke]

Not just that, it’s a lot of the Catholics themselves. Look at 1ke, Crezzato or FAB. All of them have pushed a certain line, either supporting my aunt’s extreme position

You asked if there were Church documents to show your aunt she is wrong about Church teaching. There are no documents to point you to that you can show to her, because she is right about Church teaching.

That is not an extreme position. That is a factual position. That is not “pushing a certain line.” That is giving you the only answer that there is: she is correct regarding Church teaching on the matter.

That you do not like or agree with this position makes it no less factual. So I am not sure why you are aggrevated with what I presented. It simply is. I don’t expect you to agree with it. I was merely conveying that what you are asking for does not exist.

even though the purpose was to stop a Catholic family member doing something that will potentially damage her life and her relationship with her family.

As I also stated, there is a difference between being right and being prudent and charitable with that fact. Your aunt is being neither.

But, you seem to think there is a way to make her stop. If telling her the facts, that it is harming your relationship and turning you farther away from the Church, has not stopped her I don’t know what will. Maybe her priest? Ask her to talk to her pastor about her continued harrassment.

A good friend of ours is a priest, and several of his siblings are fallen away or living in sinful situations. I am sure it hurts and burdens him greatly, but he is nothing but loving toward them.

Your aunt’s firm grasp of what the Church teaches is no license to be a butt head.

 

[maryjk]

Your aunt’s firm grasp of what the Church teaches is no license to be a butt head.

As I have told many teens, “you may be right, but that doesn’t give you the right to be rude.”

But I like how you have said it.

 

[MSSheBear]

I hope nobody thinks badgering people is a way to get them to convert. Having Evangelicals say obnoxious things about Catholics and the Church does not make me want to go back to being an Evangelical, quite the opposite. The OP’s aunt seems offended that the OP is no longer a Christian in Name Only. So apparently she goes on a verbal attack?

Perhaps the OP should remind the aunt of the quote by St. Francis of Assisi: “Preach without ceasing, if necessary use words.” (Sorry I am not quite sure of the exact quote.) Also having her pray for him is a good idea. I first started considering becoming a Catholic because of the loving behavior of a couple of my mother’s Catholic friends, not because someone was telling me about Church doctrine or Church history.