Catholicism & some Orthodox prophecy challenges

[NormalBeliever]

I’ve recently read about some Orthodox saints and elders which had some spiritual gift or another - clairvoyance, healing, or were just known for their sanctity - who also prophecied certain future things that seem to have come true, but they also happened to be opposed to Catholicism.

1. One example of this is St. Lawrence of Chernigov: St. Lawrence of Chernigov: Some Prophecies and Statements on the Ukrainian Situation / Православие.Ru

He was a Russian monk who died in 1950 and was canonised in 1992. Basically he was known to have the gift of healing and clairvoyance, his body was found incorrupt after death, and he made predictions, some of which turned out true. One of his predictions was how:

“When a little freedom appears, when the churches and monasteries are being opened and restored, then all false teaching will come out, and the demons and secret atheists (Catholics, Uniates, Ukrainian self-ordained, and others) and will fiercely take up arms against the Orthodox Russian Church, its unity and its conciliar nature. A godless authority will support these heretics, and therefore they will take churches away from the Orthodox and slaughter the faithful.”

“Then the Metropolitan of Kiev (not worthy of the name) together with his like-minded hierarchs and priests will strongly shake the Russian Church. The whole world will be amazed at his lawlessness and will be frightened. He himself will go off into eternal perdition, like Judas. But all these slanders of the evil one and false teachings will disappear in Russia, and there will be One Orthodox Russian Church."

Now the main prediction was to have been fulfilled in Metropolitan Filaret of Kiev who in the 1990’s refused to abdicate his position after Moscow refused to grant autocephaly, and created the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate. Filaret was then excommunicated by Moscow for this. Notably, the part about the faithful being slaughtered and churches taken away along with Catholics, Uniates and schismatics being supported by the government doesn’t seem to have been fulfilled, and the Russian church doesn’t seem to have been as strongly shaken by Filaret, though it was disturbed by the schism.

Anyways, my main takeaway from this is that it’s quite possible for God to give spiritual gifts and future knowledge to the Orthodox - I’ve even read an encyclical mentioning how God could reveal the future to the devil and have him reveal it - while at the same time these could be corrupted by other spiritual forces opposed to the True Faith or unconscious bias.

But what do you guys think? I’d like to know your thoughts on this.

 

[NormalBeliever]

1. One more thing related to this is the 1917 Russian revolution and how some Orthodox elders and saints prophecied it beforehand, as well as its meaning and how it would develop: The October Revolution: Prophecies on Russia’s Destiny / OrthoChristian.Com

Basically, what would be the Catholic perspective on these? To sum up all the examples briefly;

a) One monk Heliodorus of Glinsk from the early 1820’s pondered Thessalonians including the coming of Antichrist, heard it said that he would see the end times in part, and he had a vision during sleep of the names of all the Russian emperors to come after Alexander I up to Nicholas II after which terror would come.

b) John of Kronstadt apparently had a diary that was read by Metropolitan Macarius for some clergy and soliders in Petersburg in autumn of 1916 where it predicted WW1 and its end, the Revolution and its continuance before they happened.

c) A monk-saint called Aristocleus predicted in March 1917 that the revolution was God’s judgment upon the living that would touch every nation and man in the world, and in August 1918 before his death said that the White Army won’t help, predicted there will be another war and that the Germans won’t deliver Russia from the Bolsheviks and that it’s the time of the Antichrist but that Russia will still be saved later.

d) Another monk-saint, Barnabas of Gethsemane Skete who died in 1906, said to a nun that the new church she was excited about that she would live to a time where the church would be raised to the ground, as well as how almost all churches will be closed during a time of persecution. As well as that deliverance will come unexpectedly with a flowering of faith, but a flowering before the end.

Noticeable here is how the end of the world is linked with Russia - since they are Orthodox the persecution of faith in Russia is more important to them than it would be to Catholics, since Orthodoxy is a smaller Christian category/denomination and is the only true one to them.
Would these Russian-faith-revival-before-Antichrist elements linked to the end times be compatible with Catholicism, or is the implicit importance of Russian Orthodoxy for the end times a bit incompatible or awkward?

An answer that comes to mind is that God really could have given knowledge of the future to some of the Orthodox, and that elements contradicting the Catholic faith are corruptions (perhaps demons or unconscious bias) added to that. Interestingly, Kronstadt and Aristocleus both predicted Russia would be saved from Communism by China, which turned out to be false, so that may be a sign of exactly that.

What do you think?

 

[Genesis315]

As a general point, the Scriptures are clear that those in good faith who are separated may me do such deeds in the Lord’s name and likewise those in mortal sin–so we can’t really judge a particular person:

Mark 9:[37] John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him. [38] But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. [39] For he that is not against you, is for you.

Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Likewise, some prophecies are just a matter of common sense and reading the signs of the times, rather than something strictly supernatural. Some examples you gave seem more like that, especially given it was only generally accurate, but didn’t get various details correct.

Clearly, something that directly contradicted the Catholic faith could not be directly inspired by God.

 

[NormalBeliever]

Agreed. Some examples though do seem to go beyond general deduction - such as the WW2 prophecy of another war and Germans coming, or the alleged Kronstadt diary where he predicts the details of WW1 and its aftermath before it happened - but they also contain errors (such as that China will save Russia from communism), so it’s possible God could have given them a partial prophecy out of charity since they are still a part of the Church, while the rest is a product of unconscious bias or other spiritual forces tampering with that.

 

[Xarto]

I’d be very sceptical of all this, there is no mention curiously of the Russian Orthodox confiscating Catholic churches many they still retain. Also so called predictions that state that anyone other than the ROC are atheists is a bit rich.

 

[NormalBeliever]

Well the “secret atheists” stuff is likely meant to be “secret disbelievers” and not actual atheists in the colloquial sense. In Russian the word for disbeliever or godless can be used not just for atheists but for those who are opposed to or dislike the faith as well even if they themselves are religious, so the translation there lacks that nuance.

 

[Xarto]

Thanks. When it comes to us Catholics they probably mean it the other way lol

 

[po18guy]

Saints were normal, fallible men and women. It is difficult to determine if prophecies have been fulfilled, are being or will be. Prophecy normally teaches principle rather than precise predictions.

I think that many of us are lured into this or that vision, apparition or prophecy, when all we are commanded to do is be ready and watch.