"Catholicism Undervalues Women"

[MarcoPolo]

Excerpt from New York Times op-ed claiming the Church mistreats women… This is a great study in reading a purely secular view when it comes to theology, and in this example, theology and women. It demonstrates the modern 21st century zeitgeist of the western world, which is in embarrassing, delusional denial of the gifts and differences of the genders. It is also iconic of the secular criticism of the Church and women priests––that is, the article completely neglects to confront the theology of the priest as bridegroom or as the sacramental representation of the male Christ. There isn’t even a mention of the Church’s perspective on why there is a male priesthood, no confrontation of the form and matter of a sacrament, no demonstration of any awareness, or at least willingness to reveal, that there even is such a theology. With these omissions, the author demonstrates himself as unworthy of even being in the conversation. This makes the first sentence of the article all the more ironic:*Like a Pringles vendor sounding an alarm about obesity, Pope Francis fashioned himself a feminist last week. …

And neither Pope Francis nor any other top official in the bastion of male entitlement known as the Vatican can credibly assert concern about parity between the sexes. Their own kitchen is much too messy for them to call out the ketchup smudges in anybody else’s.

…

Can the church afford to alienate a generation of young women mystified by its intransigence?

“They’ve grown up in a world where all doors have been open to them,” said Kathleen Sprows Cummings, director of the Cushwa Center for the Study of American Catholicism at the University of Notre Dame. “And it just strikes a disconnect when they see the church with no female leadership — at least they’re not the ones at the altar.”*I would say this - if the Church did alienate women (or men) who think only in these fleshly perspectives, it would not be because the Church was wrong…

 

[7_Sorrows]

Are they including our Mother Mary in this accusation?

We honor Mary and all women in the Catholic Church I think. I do not feel woman are undervalued. In the church office almost all positions are held by women. We have women readers at Mass and women Eucharistic ministers. Many ministries are led by women. I don’t understand what the big thing is about women not being priests. Women are not meant to be priests. Women play a vital role in the Church. Look how many saints are women too.

 

[Murmurs]

Excerpt from New York Times op-ed claiming the Church mistreats women… This is a great study in reading a purely secular view when it comes to theology, and in this example, theology and women. It demonstrates the modern 21st century zeitgeist of the western world, which is in embarrassing, delusional denial of the gifts and differences of the genders. It is also iconic of the secular criticism of the Church and women priests––that is, the article completely neglects to confront the theology of the priest as bridegroom or as the sacramental representation of the male Christ. There isn’t even a mention of the Church’s perspective on why there is a male priesthood, no confrontation of the form and matter of a sacrament, no demonstration of any awareness, or at least willingness to reveal, that there even is such a theology. With these omissions, the author demonstrates himself as unworthy of even being in the conversation.

You’ve hit the nail on the head, of course. I think part of the problem with the general perception of the Church in the bulk of the media isn’t any real anticatholicism, just a complete misunderstanding of what the Church is actually about, and as you point out what we believe.

To them (and many people who feel this way even inside the Church), it’s seen more in a political, equal-rights mode. My mother, when I became a Catholic, (who was supportive but just felt she wanted to say this) made a comment along the lines of “if the church said it viewed black people as being entirely equal, but they were just not called to priesthood and that’s how God wants it” - demonstrated this. The Church isn’t remotely (well, not as a matter of policy, we can’t speak for individuals ) sexist, it just has a very different understanding of things; it’s not a positive denial of equality.

I don’t know if it’s a failing on the part of the church’s “PR” side to adequately explain this, or deliberate culpability on the part of the media. Probably a bit of both.

 

[pianistclare]

Obviously the writer has never actually BEEN to a Catholic Church.
There’s an army of women working there…behind the scenes, and at the forefront.
Women are, and always have been, crucial to the work of the Church.
:compcoff:

 

[Cake_or_Death]

Perhaps it could simply be the circles I move in but many don’t feel a need to repeat the church’s stance on female ordination and the like because it is so well known in society, it would be a bit like explaining H2O at the beginning of every report written for marine biologists.

Not just dissenting Catholics, many Protestants and non-believers actually know the why too because the Catholic Church repeats it so often. They just don’t agree with the logic leading to the premise or the premise itself being faulty.

I don’t believe in Islam, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand why Muslims do. Neither does it automatically mean I agree with them because I understand why they believe it.

The example posted above was actually a situation in Mormonism for a time (Blacks are fellow humans but not eligible of the priesthood) that by definition was racist. Replace “black” with “women” and you get a case of sexism. I’m not saying that’s not a good or a bad thing, but excluding someone from any office due to their gender is by definition sexist. I’m aware of the argument “but men can’t give birth” but since women have been fulfilling the roles of Clerics rather adequately in Anglican churches for some time now this is not a valid defense in non-Catholic eyes since to them it’s been “proven” women can do it.

I’m not complaining about it, I’m just not sure why Catholics object to it being described as sexism because it is. Whats wrong with calling a spade a spade?

 

[pianistclare]

So is it your position that the only thing one can do in the Church is become a priest?


That’s like saying if you’re not the judge, why go into law.

 

[Cake_or_Death]

So is it your position that the only thing one can do in the Church is become a priest?


That’s like saying if you’re not the judge, why go into law.

What about if because you were a woman you could train to be a nurse, but not a doctor because you’re white?

Some people do feel they have a calling to be nurses, others desire to be the doctor. Sometimes it is according to their means, their preferences or for whatever reason. People today generally feel they should be judged according to their merit, not what happens to be between their legs.

…Don’t take this for a campaign for womens ordination, I’m just explaining why there will always be documents like this being circled about. Not because they’re anti catholic, but because it technically is what they claim it is (sexist).

Also lets not kid ourselves, in the terms of rank, authority and respectability a nun is not as high up as a priest. I grew up in an Irish Catholic family with plenty of them, I know very well how the priest was viewed against everyone else. My dear old aunt (an ursuline) who has a PhD in Biblical studies is expected to always secede to the authority of her 40-year younger newly ordained nephew who really simply doesn’t know half as much about scripture as she does. The fact he can rise above her in the system simply by virtue of having a penis seems totally irrational to non-Catholics in a society where, at least in theory, we are supposed to gain authority and leadership according to talent and ability.

 

[Francey]

Are they including our Mother Mary in this accusation?

We honor Mary and all women in the Catholic Church I think. I do not feel woman are undervalued. In the church office almost all positions are held by women. We have women readers at Mass and women Eucharistic ministers. Many ministries are led by women. I don’t understand what the big thing is about women not being priests. Women are not meant to be priests. Women play a vital role in the Church. Look how many saints are women too.

As of last year 18 percent of Holy See employees were women, up from 17 percent four years ago.

In the separately administered Vatican City State in 2004, 13 percent of personnel were women, rising to 19 percent in 2014.

 

[phil19034]

Perhaps it could simply be the circles I move in but many don’t feel a need to repeat the church’s stance on female ordination and the like because it is so well known in society, it would be a bit like explaining H2O at the beginning of every report written for marine biologists.

Not just dissenting Catholics, many Protestants and non-believers actually know the why too because the Catholic Church repeats it so often. They just don’t agree with the logic leading to the premise or the premise itself being faulty.

I don’t believe in Islam, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand why Muslims do. Neither does it automatically mean I agree with them because I understand why they believe it.

The example posted above was actually a situation in Mormonism for a time (Blacks are fellow humans but not eligible of the priesthood) that by definition was racist. Replace “black” with “women” and you get a case of sexism. I’m not saying that’s not a good or a bad thing, but excluding someone from any office due to their gender is by definition sexist. I’m aware of the argument “but men can’t give birth” but since women have been fulfilling the roles of Clerics rather adequately in Anglican churches for some time now this is not a valid defense in non-Catholic eyes since to them it’s been “proven” women can do it.

I’m not complaining about it, I’m just not sure why Catholics object to it being described as sexism because it is. Whats wrong with calling a spade a spade?

By your definition then it is sexist for women to not be fathers and sexist for men to not be mothers. By your definition it’s sexist to have segregated bathrooms for men and women.

What many people fail to realize is that the priesthood is NOT a job or career. It is a vocation. Also the Church has made it clear… They don’t have the authority to allow women priests. It also irks me that people protest the Catholics for this but mention nothing about the eastern Christians who agree with us theologically about this.

 

[pianistclare]

What about if because you were a woman you could train to be a nurse, but not a doctor because you’re white?

Some people do feel they have a calling to be nurses, others desire to be the doctor. Sometimes it is according to their means, their preferences or for whatever reason. People today generally feel they should be judged according to their merit, not what happens to be between their legs.

…Don’t take this for a campaign for womens ordination, I’m just explaining why there will always be documents like this being circled about. Not because they’re anti catholic, but because it technically is what they claim it is (sexist).

Also lets not kid ourselves, in the terms of rank, authority and respectability a nun is not as high up as a priest. I grew up in an Irish Catholic family with plenty of them, I know very well how the priest was viewed against everyone else. My dear old aunt (an ursuline) who has a PhD in Biblical studies is expected to always secede to the authority of her 40-year younger newly ordained nephew who really simply doesn’t know half as much about scripture as she does. The fact he can rise above her in the system simply by virtue of having a penis seems totally irrational to non-Catholics in a society where, at least in theory, we are supposed to gain authority and leadership according to talent and ability.

WHOA.
It’s an article that is making an inaccurate presumption.
You have already bought into this notion that the Church is sexist. Truly, it’s not.
The Church is not about rank, never has been. I seem to recall a certain Scripture passage about a mother wanting her “sons of thunder” to have the seats right up close and next to Jesus in heaven. I believe, Jesus, the head of the Church set that record straight.

The priest in your example is above rank (as you say…which is really not the case, but I’ll play) by virtue of his ordination and ability to confect the Eucharist.
Kind of a big qualification.
I’m a Lay Ecclesial Minister. So what? I don’t presume to tell our young priest what’s what. He has a totally different level of education.
Everyone has a role. Even people who appear to be “lowly” by your definition (those without a fancy title) are crucial to the work of Christ. Mother Theresa never put herself at the top of anyone’s list. Others did though. She was too busy being the hands and feet of Christ, as I presume, your aunt was/is.

The fact that non-Catholics don’t get it, just proves how little they know about the faith or about Jesus and what He really taught.

 

[Cake_or_Death]

WHOA.
It’s an article that is making an inaccurate presumption.
You have already bought into this notion that the Church is sexist. Truly, it’s not.

I fear I must disagree, although I do not disagree with the aim to force the church to agree with me.

To quote the Merriam Webster dictionary for a definition of what constitutes sexism…

Full Definition of SEXISM
1
: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2
: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

The Catholic Church’s teaching on the role of women fits both of these categories, no matter how talented a woman might be in teaching the faith no however knowledgeable she might be of canon law or scripture she can never be a leader of Christendom. Purely because she is female. That fits definition one.

Number two is easier still, the Catholic Church fosters the belief (although perhaps not as much as in previous centuries) with complementarity that women are further from God than men (Man is made in the image of God, but women the glory of man). All too often it is women called to modesty and focusing on parenthood, not men. That fits definition two.

By no uncertain terms is the Catholic Church not sexist.

The Church is not about rank, never has been. I seem to recall a certain Scripture passage about a mother wanting her “sons of thunder” to have the seats right up close and next to Jesus in heaven. I believe, Jesus, the head of the Church set that record straight.

Well, I really…really…really do not want to get into a debate of what Catholics think Jesus taught here I won’t agree with you and you are duty bound to not secede any ground to heretics/schismatics on any matter. Suffice it to say I think claiming the Catholic Church is not about rank would elicit intense laughter from any Protestant or Orthodox Christian. After all the Pope’s claim to absolute authority above all others and his fellow bishops is behind both of the major schism in history.

A core premise of canon law is to place total faith in the Magesterium. The Magesterium is built around hierarchy. I think you’ll have quite a task convincing any non-Catholic the church isn’t about rank. It definitely is.

The priest in your example is above rank (as you say…which is really not the case, but I’ll play) by virtue of his ordination and ability to confect the Eucharist.
Kind of a big qualification.

Because that power is denied to women. Yes, yes…I know, Catholics claim women can’t have that power. I’m not going to make any claims about that. It’s still sexist no matter how we dance around it or if Jesus said so or not. Even if Jesus did say so it doesn’t stop it being sexist.

I’m a Lay Ecclesial Minister. So what? I don’t presume to tell our young priest what’s what. He has a totally different level of education.

I can’t say what yours is, but do you think it would be fair that a Doctor of Biblical studies who’s spent the best part of fifty-three years mastering Aramaic, Koine Greek, Hebrew and the scriptures itself should be “corrected” by some pimply little boy who can’t even quote the scripture? I certainly don’t, and I certainly set him straight when he tries to correct my readings of it, sadly due to her vows she must meekly nod and agree; even if she knows he is mistaken, even when what he says goes against the Catholic view (unless it’s something huge like “SSM is ok”) she is obliged to silence because he is above her. To say this isn’t encouraged simply isn’t true, I mean to quote St. Catherine of Sienna…

“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death…”

Were it an apprentice plumber try to correct a man with a masters degree in engineering who’d been in the field for fourty years we’d laugh at the apprentice, but in this view we must award him absolute credence.

Everyone has a role. Even people who appear to be “lowly” by your definition (those without a fancy title) are crucial to the work of Christ. Mother Theresa never put herself at the top of anyone’s list. Others did though. She was too busy being the hands and feet of Christ, as I presume, your aunt was/is.

Just because someone is being shot on the other side of the world, does that make me stealing your purse any better?

To outsiders this is an injustice, and while it may not be as grave an injustice as say female circumcision in Egypt or the antics of Islamic State it does not make the injustice any better.

I’ll admit I don’t see why non-Catholics take up the cause so often, at least where I live one can just opt-out of Catholicism and never look back if one feels it is mistaken or injust. I can’t say I understand why they want to take up a campaign against something not forcing itself upon everyone else (I’m aware in the US it does, but not in Europe perhaps with exception to Italy and less successfully in Ireland), but I can see very clearly why they might.

The fact that non-Catholics don’t get it, just proves how little they know about the faith or about Jesus and what He really taught.

Again…I can’t really respond to this with my views, to actually try and argue against Catholic theology would be rather rude of me on a Catholic forum and I’m not going to (it would be futile anyway considering there is no room to agree with non-believers).

 

[Cake_or_Death]

By your definition then it is sexist for women to not be fathers and sexist for men to not be mothers. By your definition it’s sexist to have segregated bathrooms for men and women.

The definition of sexism does not include roles from which one is biologically barred from, and as I have explained non-Catholics generally do not accept the notion that one needs a penis to be a cleric.

I always felt segregated bathrooms were a bit pointless when one has cubicles and no urinals but hey shrug

What many people fail to realize is that the priesthood is NOT a job or career. It is a vocation.

So is being a nurse, but we don’t bar men from it.

Also the Church has made it clear… They don’t have the authority to allow women priests. It also irks me that people protest the Catholics for this but mention nothing about the eastern Christians who agree with us theologically about this.

Mostly because here Eastern Christians are a tiny minority, the same way we generally don’t talk about Raelians taking about the second coming of their alien master because they’re a tiny minority we don’t talk about the Orthodox/Eastern Catholics for the same reason.

The Church can claim whatever it likes, non-Catholics do not agree with the base premise. Not unlike how Catholics disagree with secularists about human rights

 

[7_Sorrows]

You obviously do not agree with Catholic theology or the structure of the Catholic Church since you profess to be a former Catholic.

This post is directed to Cake or Death. As a Catholic woman, I have no problem with the fact that priests, bishops and the Pope are all male.
I don’t feel put out or undervalued because of that. I accept Catholic theology and the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Cake_or_Death]

You obviously do not agree with Catholic theology or the structure of the Catholic Church since you profess to be a former Catholic.

Quite, there’s precious little in Catholic Teaching I would actually agree with since I personally find several basic premises (i.e: Infalliability) upon which much of the theology is based faulty.

This post is directed to Cake or Death. As a Catholic woman, I have no problem with the fact that priests, bishops and the Pope are all male.
I don’t feel put out or undervalued because of that. I accept Catholic theology and the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I’m sure you don’t, but perhaps if you felt you had a calling to the priesthood like former Catholic-now Archbishops Scori of the Episcopal Church you might feel slightly differently.

I’m not a woman nor have I ever had any desire to be ordained so I can’t say. Many if not most female Catholics I have interviewed here (by no means all) are less comfortable with the arrangement, even the ones who agree out of obligation confess some unease.

That could simply be my luck of course.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The NYT article demonstrated again that news editors would not let someone write about sports who don’t know the difference between a home run and a touchdown, but will often let people who don’t know much of anything about religion to wrote stories about it.

 

[pianistclare]

The NYT article demonstrated again that news editors would not let someone write about sports who don’t know the difference between a home run and a touchdown, but will often let people who don’t know much of anything about religion to wrote stories about it.

Exactly.

 

[pianistclare]

I fear I must disagree, although I do not disagree with the aim to force the church to agree with me.

To quote the Merriam Webster dictionary for a definition of what constitutes sexism…

The Catholic Church’s teaching on the role of women fits both of these categories, no matter how talented a woman might be in teaching the faith no however knowledgeable she might be of canon law or scripture she can never be a leader of Christendom. Purely because she is female. That fits definition one.

Number two is easier still, the Catholic Church fosters the belief (although perhaps not as much as in previous centuries) with complementarity that women are further from God than men (Man is made in the image of God, but women the glory of man). All too often it is women called to modesty and focusing on parenthood, not men. That fits definition two.

By no uncertain terms is the Catholic Church not sexist.

Well, I really…really…really do not want to get into a debate of what Catholics think Jesus taught here I won’t agree with you and you are duty bound to not secede any ground to heretics/schismatics on any matter. Suffice it to say I think claiming the Catholic Church is not about rank would elicit intense laughter from any Protestant or Orthodox Christian. After all the Pope’s claim to absolute authority above all others and his fellow bishops is behind both of the major schism in history.

A core premise of canon law is to place total faith in the Magesterium. The Magesterium is built around hierarchy. I think you’ll have quite a task convincing any non-Catholic the church isn’t about rank. It definitely is.

Because that power is denied to women. Yes, yes…I know, Catholics claim women can’t have that power. I’m not going to make any claims about that. It’s still sexist no matter how we dance around it or if Jesus said so or not. Even if Jesus did say so it doesn’t stop it being sexist.

I can’t say what yours is, but do you think it would be fair that a Doctor of Biblical studies who’s spent the best part of fifty-three years mastering Aramaic, Koine Greek, Hebrew and the scriptures itself should be “corrected” by some pimply little boy who can’t even quote the scripture? I certainly don’t, and I certainly set him straight when he tries to correct my readings of it, sadly due to her vows she must meekly nod and agree; even if she knows he is mistaken, even when what he says goes against the Catholic view (unless it’s something huge like “SSM is ok”) she is obliged to silence because he is above her. To say this isn’t encouraged simply isn’t true, I mean to quote St. Catherine of Sienna…

Were it an apprentice plumber try to correct a man with a masters degree in engineering who’d been in the field for fourty years we’d laugh at the apprentice, but in this view we must award him absolute credence.

Just because someone is being shot on the other side of the world, does that make me stealing your purse any better?

To outsiders this is an injustice, and while it may not be as grave an injustice as say female circumcision in Egypt or the antics of Islamic State it does not make the injustice any better.

I’ll admit I don’t see why non-Catholics take up the cause so often, at least where I live one can just opt-out of Catholicism and never look back if one feels it is mistaken or injust. I can’t say I understand why they want to take up a campaign against something not forcing itself upon everyone else (I’m aware in the US it does, but not in Europe perhaps with exception to Italy and less successfully in Ireland), but I can see very clearly why they might.

Again…I can’t really respond to this with my views, to actually try and argue against Catholic theology would be rather rude of me on a Catholic forum and I’m not going to (it would be futile anyway considering there is no room to agree with non-believers).

Well, I’m at a loss for words. No one called you a heretic, btw.
There is so much misunderstanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church here, suffice it to say that you come off as angry and misinformed.
For us women who work in the church, it’s not a matter of he gets to I don’t. I left all that behind in the schoolyard. You do a disservice to those women who do great work.
I hope you felt better about yourself when you told off that priest.
Have a nice life.

 

[marymary1975]

What about if because you were a woman you could train to be a nurse, but not a doctor because you’re white?

Some people do feel they have a calling to be nurses, others desire to be the doctor. Sometimes it is according to their means, their preferences or for whatever reason. People today generally feel they should be judged according to their merit, not what happens to be between their legs.

…Don’t take this for a campaign for womens ordination, I’m just explaining why there will always be documents like this being circled about. Not because they’re anti catholic, but because it technically is what they claim it is (sexist).

Also lets not kid ourselves, in the terms of rank, authority and respectability a nun is not as high up as a priest. I grew up in an Irish Catholic family with plenty of them, I know very well how the priest was viewed against everyone else. My dear old aunt (an ursuline) who has a PhD in Biblical studies is expected to always secede to the authority of her 40-year younger newly ordained nephew who really simply doesn’t know half as much about scripture as she does. The fact he can rise above her in the system simply by virtue of having a penis seems totally irrational to non-Catholics in a society where, at least in theory, we are supposed to gain authority and leadership according to talent and ability.

People think of it as sexist because they don’t understand what being a priest is. Just as you did here, they compare it to being a nurse or to a profession. They also, just as you are doing here, they see it as a position of power or authority. That is a completely erroneous view of what a priest is, and just as pianistclaire (I think) said denotes you haven’t been to a catholic church or you have no/very little knowledge of what the church teaches.

You say that let’s not kid ourservelse, do you think a nun has more rank than a priest. Let me ask you, who do you think had more rank and influence in 1980, mother Theresa (a nun) or the priest that was assigned at your parish? Who do you think had more rank (and still has more rank) st Francis of assisi (who was never a priest, never ordained) or one of the ordained Franciscan in his order?

Being a priest is about serving God and do his will. Is not a profession like being a nurse or a doctor and if you want to become a priest because you see it like that and because you think you will have authority you shouldn’t become a priest. It is vocation and a vocation that is not and never should be about “your” preferences. It is not about you. Same with being a nun. Any vocation I’m the catholic church is not about me and what I want and what are my preferences and if you view it like that, just as the article does you are plain wrong.

 

[Bookcat]

“Catholicism Undervalues Women”

Nope.

(rather the opposite)

On to next thread.

 

[casslean]

The Catholic Church’s teaching on the role of women fits both of these categories, no matter how talented a woman might be in teaching the faith no however knowledgeable she might be of canon law or scripture she can never be a leader of Christendom. Purely because she is female. That fits definition one.

Number two is easier still, the Catholic Church fosters the belief (although perhaps not as much as in previous centuries) with complementarity that women are further from God than men (Man is made in the image of God, but women the glory of man). All too often it is women called to modesty and focusing on parenthood, not men. That fits definition two.

By no uncertain terms is the Catholic Church not sexist.

You’re actually incorrect on both counts.

On the first count, there is a difference between discriminating between individuals on the basis of their gender and distinguishing between individuals on the basis of their gender. Discrimination occurs when gender is immaterial to the task for which two individuals are being assessed, and yet is still used to preclude an individual from taking a role.

If there is a bone fide justification for precluding one gender or another, it isn’t discrimination (and that’s from a legal perspective). In the case of the priesthood, holy orders are a sacrament that is limited to men. That is a bona fide justification for not opening the priesthood to women. Women are not prevented from attaining other high roles in the Church (and in fact have wielded amount of authority) - the nature of the priesthood makes it impossible for a woman to hold THAT position.

Women can still be leaders in theology or canon law or whatever they want (and many are). They just can’t be priests.

On the second count, the argument that the Church perpetuates the notion that women are further from God than men, I would challenge you to provide me with theological evidence of that. God could have sent His only Son to Earth by any means He chose, and He chose to use a woman - a woman that the Catholic Church venerates (and for which it often has to explain such veneration to its Protestant counterparts who don’t hold Mary in the same esteem). Are there individual Catholics who sometimes espouse views contrary to a notion of equality, such as putting higher standards of modesty on women than men? Certainly. But that isn’t the church - it’s people. You have to separate the people from the church, because people are flawed.

I am a young, professional woman who has grown up in a world of so-called “feminist ideals” - I found far more acceptance and admiration for myself as a woman inside the walls of the Catholic Church than I ever did in feminism.