"Catholicism vs Christianity"

[The_Reginator]

The books of the Bible were actually chosen because they conform to the doctrines of the Catholic Church - not the other way around.

The Bible came from the teachings of the Catholic Church; not the other way around.

 

[nsper7]

In fairness, some Catholics don’t help on this issue either (I admit I am guilty of this sort of stuff as well):

A) Someone asks you your religion and you answer: “Catholic” (technically, this is an incomplete answer since Catholic simply means ‘Universal’), instead of “Christian” or “Catholic Christian”.

B) Catholics acting as though their Catholicism is just another branch of Christianity, instead of taking the stance that Catholicism is the fullness of Christianity. Admittedly, if one is around Protestants a lot (I have many Protestant friends and am still involved in a non-denominational Christian Campus Ministry…worship and fellowship only [their main weekly event is on Tuesdays], I would never receive their Communion, which they sometimes offer on Tuesday), then probably charity demands not bringing up such an issue haughtily/pridefully (another issue I deal with), but perhaps phrasing it as “The Catholic Church teaches that it possesses the fullness of Truth”.

 

[losh14]

Protestants, on the other hand, do look first at the Bible, and then formulate doctrine based on what they find in the Bible.

When discussing our faith with non-Catholics, it is especially important to point out these things. I’ve seen websites by non-Catholics that look into the history but don’t go far enough back - ie, they say that the first reference to “Catholic” is from Nicaea or post-Nicaea, but this is because they believe they won’t find any references prior to that. Indeed, we look at Ignatius of Antioch, writing around 110 a.d., and we find self-referential language to describe him and other leaders as bishops in charge of an organized faith that calls itself Catholic, adheres to many of the distinctively Catholic doctrines we find today (particularly the Eucharist, the regenerative grace of Baptism, and the sacraments of Confession and Ordination), and identifies itself as separate from groups that adhere to a faulty doctrine, judged by comparison directly with Scripture.

The colored view that our non-Catholic brethren and sestren share also comes about in terms of the most common approaches against our faith, namely in condemnations of Marian doctrine, the communion of Saints, and the Papacy. Why choose these three - which rarely come up in Mass? Yes, we say our prayers *with * the Saints and Mary, whom we believe are currently adoring God forever in Heaven, and we pray for the Pope along with all of our Church leaders, but otherwise these doctrines don’t figure heavily into our general celebrations. Moreover, devotion to the Saints tends to be a matter of private and personal reflection - and it’s not one that all of us are called to. I think non-Catholics look at old movies showing veiled penitents kissing statues and they think that’s how we all are and take the statues as objects of worship rather than as visual aids in worship. If they’d take time to notice, most Catholic art depicts historical people in poses of worship and contemplation - a reminder of what these truly alive people are doing now and what we as congregation should be doing.

Very rarely have I gotten into a discussion with non-Catholics about soteriology - other than to confront an accusation of “salvation by works”, or about Christian living - other than to remind them of the Scriptural call to obedience, piety and holiness.

I think it really comes down to a misunderstanding of our faith - and there are apostate Catholics who don’t help because they claim Catholicism but don’t practice. So when a cultural Catholic who hasn’t been to Mass or read about their faith for years tells an evangelical that we believe that “good people” go to Heaven, it opens them and us up to a lot of ridicule.

It also makes them easy targets for proselytizing. Any evangelist walking the Roman Road looks really convincing by pointing out the relevant passages in Scripture - until you take the Bible and point out passages that force the OSAS narrative to go deeper and ultimately be found wanting.

There’s also the immediacy argument - “If you accept the Lord Jesus as your Personal Savior now, you would go to Heaven if you died in the next moment”. That’s completely true - because if you die in the next moment, it’s the only command in Scripture that you’d be able to comply with. If you lived long enough, you’d be expected to repent and confess your sins, be baptized, and live in imitation of Christ. Again, it’s not the full story, though it remains technically true.

 

[NCSue]

I was looking around today and found something that had been printed in the St. Petersburg paper this Easter season. It is clear without being confrontational, and I hope you’ll appreciate it as much as I did. I think it might be educational for people who think Catholics aren’t Christian, too.

Come Home for Easter

Who are we?

We are your neighbors…We live throughout this area. Across the Country, over 25% of Americans are Catholic, and our international family numbers over 1 billion.

We are Christians…We believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God born of the Virgin Mary. We believe that He died to save us from sin and rose so that He might give us eternal life.

We are people of God…who trace our spiritual blood lines through the saints of all centuries back to Jesus, the promised Son of David and the Sacrificial Lamb prophesied by Abraham. Our membership includes Mother Teresa and Al Capone, smart, dull, rich, poor and people of all races and nationalities. One wit defined Catholicism as: “Here comes everybody.”

We are the Body of Christ…We believe that the risen Jesus lives in us spiritually through his Holy Spirit and that united with Him in the waters of baptism we form one “mystical body” with Christ as our head.

We are an earthly people…We believe that, since God came to earth, then earth itself is “Christ-alized.” The world is good, life is good. people are good. Of course, we know that people sin; but we believe that sin can be forgiven - entirely wiped out, not just overlooked.

We are a sacramental people…Sacraments are signs of God’s grace and special presence. Jesus Himself is the most fundamental sign of God’s presence for Jesus is God in the Flesh. As Catholics, we believe that through the seven sacraments or sacred signs instituted by Christ, the Lord Jesus still speaks and reveals to us the infinite mystery and presence of God. Through our celebration of the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmations, Reconciliation, Eucharist, Marriage, Holy Orders and Healing, we believe that God is as uniquely present to all whom He met.

We are heavenly people…Along with other Christians, we believe in everlasting life after death. We view heaven as a joyous place, a banquet at which God is our host, Jesus our waiter and a crowd of angels as entertainers. Our celebration includes friends and former enemies. We believe that all creation and all people are called to glory.

We are a people of Tradition…We trace our lineage back to Adam and Eve. We do not start each day as if it were not based on yesterday. We do not face each question as if we had learned nothing from experience. We combine the wisdom of scripture and the experience of our life with God through the centuries. This gives us respect for the past, openness to the future and hope for the present.

We are a people of values…With Paul the Apostle we hold on to all that is true and good. We believe that some values never go out of style, that marriage and family are holy and inviolable than that the ten commandments were not given to us as mere suggestions.

We are a people of life…We are convinced that Jesus came to give us life the the full and that God alone is in charge of life. We believe that human life is sacred from the first moment of conception through natural death. We are absolutely opposed to the destruction of life at either end of its spectrum, and we insist on the right to a certain quality of life in between. We pledge ourselves to fight the life-denying forces in our “culture of death.”

We are a patriotic people…We are in love with America - even of America has not always loved us. Catholic immigrants were once excluded by law; the Catholic Church was not allowed to own property; Catholics were not even allowed to vote. Organized gangs, called “know nothings” and “Nativists” burned our Churches and persecuted our people. Nevertheless, while Catholics were only 16% of the population during WWI, we made up 35% of the Armed Forces that fought for America. And we have maintained our commitment to America ever since.

We are a church of the people…Catholicism was started by a poor carpenter and a dozen poor fisherman. We have never lost our bind with working people. We formed the craft guilds in the Middle Ages and helped found labor unions in America. We have a grand tradition of the Catholic social gospel. Eleven of the 12 proposals in our “Social Reconstruction” document became a part of the New Deal over 60 years ago. And we continue to help the poor in hospitals, schools, shelters, food banks, etc.

So - whats wrong with us?…Nothing…God isn’t finished working on us yet. If you feel perhaps God isn’t finished working on you either, we would like to invite you and your family and friends to join us for our celebration of Christ’s Resurrection.

All of our Parishes would love to welcome you home this Easter.

Come to me says the Lord



Well said, I think.

 

[happilycatholic]

OOOH, this bugs me.

I was doing a web search for sites that discuss our faith, entered “Catholicism” as a search term, and found that “Catholicism vs Christianity” was one of the broad topics that popped up.

When will they understand - Catholics ARE Christian. In fact, we’re the original Christians, if you want to know the truth about it!!

Grr.

Hi NCSue:

Stuff like this really doesn’t bother me because I see it as a feeble attempt to get attention by a person or group that needs that particular crutch to stand.

Catholics seek no crutch. We stand on Truth.

Peace Be With You

~HC

 

[Protestant101]

Hi NCSue:

Catholics seek no crutch. We stand on Truth.

Catholics stand on some truth - other groups stand on other truths. Almost all groups say they have the truth so making the claim doesn’t necessarily make the truth. Some doctrines clearly deny the truth.

 

[goldfish60]

All these ‘are you Catholic or Christian’ mind circus is something I’m just starting to get used to when dealing with nonCatholics. I now avoid the issue and try my best to keep away from creatures who believe in this garbage mindset. It’s just a way for Protestants to convince themselves of their superiority over the Catholics

 

[losh14]

All these ‘are you Catholic or Christian’ mind circus is something I’m just starting to get used to when dealing with nonCatholics.

It’s a false dichotomy - “are you human or American”?

One response to try: “I’m a Christian in the Catholic Church”.
A gentle response: “I’m one of those Catholics who believes in and practices the faith, and so I’m Christian.”
A more forceful response: “I found Christ in the Catholic Church”
Another response: “I’m a Christian who worships in the Ancient and Original Church of Christ of Earth”
A third response: “I’m a Christian and I follow the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church”
Lastly: “I’m a Christian in the Church Christ founded”

You can also ask what someone means by a Christian. I think the most basic definition must be one who believes in the divinity of Jesus, in the truth of the Gospel, and conforms their lives accordingly. Of course, you could believe in Jesus and the Gospel and not conform your life - you’re still a Christian, just a bad Christian.

 

[phoenix3212]

Catholics stand on some truth - other groups stand on other truths. Almost all groups say they have the truth so making the claim doesn’t necessarily make the truth. Some doctrines clearly deny the truth.

Of all the Christian Churches and divisions, the Catholic Church by far has the strongest historical and theological claims to truth than any other. Four centuries before the proclamation of the Biblical canon, it was already clear that Christ had established a Church with the basic elements of today’s Catholic Church: hierarchy, structure and sacraments. The Church can definitively trace back her heritage through the ages to Pentecost and defend her theological ideals with the Early Church Fathers. The only other churches that can do that, albeit with less definitiveness, are the Orthodox Churches.

 

[Protestant101]

Of all the Christian Churches and divisions, the Catholic Church by far has the strongest historical and theological claims to truth than any other. Four centuries before the proclamation of the Biblical canon, it was already clear that Christ had established a Church with the basic elements of today’s Catholic Church: hierarchy, structure and sacraments. The Church can definitively trace back her heritage through the ages to Pentecost and defend her theological ideals with the Early Church Fathers. The only other churches that can do that, albeit with less definitiveness, are the Orthodox Churches.

Your “history” is activist in nature - there has always been a Church, there have always been churches. The reason you can only trace your church back to Pentecost is because it has not always existed; either have certain of the Catholic doctrines. To be able to say you were the first church; one of the first things you would need to be able to do is to show not just a physical existence of your denomination (history) but a more complete portrayal by also including history of doctrine - for there is only one church who can trace their history back to Eden through doctrine, and it’s not Catholic.

 

[uther]

My wife was delivering her homily to me the other day about this subject (sort of - after something I said most likely).

She said that “If you are a Christian you should not have to tell someone. They should know it by how you act and what you do.”

I agreed to a point.

Now that I think about it, how can we, as Catholics, separate ourselves from the also-ran not full of the Gifts Christians? How is it that we can demonstrate to the rest of the world’s 20,000++ self proclaimed Christian splinter factions that we are the true Church instituted by Christ?

Catholics are legendary for not knowing scripture and not being able to defend their faith, yours truly to a certain degree.

Something to think about.

Would the problem be that most of the rabid ones who claim Christ but not Catholicism actually be obtaining their knowledge of us second hand?

Eddie Mac

I’ve thought about that Eddie Mac. You know what got to me, at least intellectually? Authenticity. I have thought of producing a simple brochure/tract/flyer to be used for special evangelical outreach programs that would use this concept and hopefully stimulate curiosity.

Something along the lines of; “Do you long for the authentic message of Christ? Come to…”

or perhaps,

“One group of faithful Christians has kept the truth alive since the Apostles themselves. If you are interested in authentic Christianity, the real deal, come to…”

Something like that. ***The real thing ***being the hook for the curiosity.

 

[NCSue]

Your “history” is activist in nature - there has always been a Church, there have always been churches. The reason you can only trace your church back to Pentecost is because it has not always existed; either have certain of the Catholic doctrines. To be able to say you were the first church; one of the first things you would need to be able to do is to show not just a physical existence of your denomination (history) but a more complete portrayal by also including history of doctrine - for there is only one church who can trace their history back to Eden through doctrine, and it’s not Catholic.

The reason you trace your church back to Eden is because you’re not talking about the church. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ.

 

[PBTY]

Though I don’t agree with this magazine’s sedevacantist leanings, this is an interesting article from The Catholic Voice, Vol. 14, Sept. 1998;

"If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in 1517.

 If you belong to the church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry.

 If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland, in the year 1560.

 If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion is an offshoot of the church of England and was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

 If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was founded by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

 If you are a Methodist, your religion was started by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

 If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Undley founded your church in London in 1774.

 If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints) Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, NY in 1829.

 If you are a Baptist you owe the tenants of your religion to John Smyth who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.

 If you are of the Dutch Reformed church you recognize Michaelis Jonce as founder because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

 If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

 If you are a Christian Scientist, you look at 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

 If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as "Church of the Nazarene", "Pentecostal Gospel", "Holiness Church", or "Jehovah's Witnesses", your religion is one of hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past 100 years.

 If you are a Novus Ordo Catholic, your religion was founded over a 20 year period, starting in the mid 60s following the second Vatican Council, when the Mass and other sacraments were changed. The changes were made starting with Pope John XXIII, and included changes made by his successor, Pope Paul VI and the present leader of the Novus Ordo church, John Paul II.

 If you are a Roman Catholic and a member of the True Church, you know your religion was founded in the year 33, by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and that it has not changed since that time."

 

[losh14]

one of the first things you would need to be able to do is to show not just a physical existence of your denomination (history) but a more complete portrayal by also including history of doctrine - for there is only one church who can trace their history back to Eden through doctrine, and it’s not Catholic.

This is new to me - could you regale us, please, with a brief and concise history of Eden to this church you speak of?

 

[KC91]

In some countries this false difference may not mean anything negative, as for example in China they view Catholicism and Protestant sects as basically different religions. I personally prefer the name Catholic to Christian.