Catholicity of the Early Church

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Much like the problem that you have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER…NONE to show ANY POST-APOSTOLIC church father teaching the Real Presence of the Eucharist is a **heresy **or **great usurpation **of Christ teaching. How can ANY Protestant as yourself so BLINDLY and FLAT OUT DENY the obvious due to PRIDE?

So again Radical…show me ONE primary-empirical source clearly stating a SYMBOLIC Eucharist is the orthodox teaching of Christ?

Good luck…you will need it!
There is no reason to believe that any Protestant disbelieves it based on “pride.” That is an uncharitable assumption. I see that term thrown out often in this forum in relationship to both the reformers, and to those of us who adhere to the principles they espoused. We should always remember that we are still governed by the Commandments, one of which being not to bear false witness.
 
There is no reason to believe that any Protestant disbelieves it based on “pride.” That is an uncharitable assumption. I see that term thrown out often in this forum in relationship to both the reformers, and to those of us who adhere to the principles they espoused. We should always remember that we are still governed by the Commandments, one of which being not to bear false witness.
Bear false witness? So spiritual pride does not exist? I beg to differ. Pride is an over-estimation of one’s self. Lucifer’s pride lead him to disobey God and many reformers pride caused them to fabricate many novel doctrines as oppose to giving one’s will to the will of God. Big difference.
 
Bear false witness? So spiritual pride does not exist? I beg to differ. Pride is an over-estimation of one’s self. Lucifer’s pride lead him to disobey God and many reformers pride caused them to fabricate many novel doctrines as oppose to giving one’s will to the will of God. Big difference.
Spiritual pride does exist and it exists equally among Roman Catholics as well as Protestants. It’s a human problem. No church has a corner on it. Not the Popes, not the reformers. No one on this forum knows the other, and for personal attacks of spiritual pride to be flung at one another is inappropriate and un-Christian. To state something about someone that you do not and can not know is smearing the reputation of another person whom you have no solid basis to make the accusation towards. That is a false witness about your neighbor who you are required by God to love and serve…not attack in order to score brownie points in an apologetic mudslinging match.
 
Spiritual pride does exist and it exists equally among Roman Catholics as well as Protestants. It’s a human problem. No church has a corner on it. Not the Popes, not the reformers. No one on this forum knows the other, and for personal attacks of spiritual pride to be flung at one another is inappropriate and un-Christian. To state something about someone that you do not and can not know is smearing the reputation of another person whom you have no solid basis to make the accusation towards. That is a false witness about your neighbor who you are required by God to love and serve…not attack in order to score brownie points in an apologetic mudslinging match.
I’ll second this. Let’s all remember that there were two sides to the Reformation, and that neither one was anywhere close to being without blame. Our job now is to try to heal the wounds in the body of Christ and we won’t do that simply by winning apologetics arguments - we have to do it by charitably planting seeds of truth and letting the Holy Spirit work in our lives.

I apologize to all Protestants for any time I or any of my Catholic brothers have shown any lack of charity.
 
I’ll second this. Let’s all remember that there were two sides to the Reformation, and that neither one was anywhere close to being without blame. Our job now is to try to heal the wounds in the body of Christ and we won’t do that simply by winning apologetics arguments - we have to do it by charitably planting seeds of truth and letting the Holy Spirit work in our lives.

I apologize to all Protestants for any time I or any of my Catholic brothers have shown any lack of charity.
You by no means have to! I’m a sinner too, as prone to spiritual pride as any other sinner is. I suppose for us, as non-Catholics, it’s rather frustrating to read the same knee-jerk statements made day in and day out…almost as if there is a pre-written script somewhere out there on the internet that you have access to when you buy the secret apologetics decoder ring.

Sure, you’ll get the same and much worse on some Protestant forums (CARM comes to mind). That doesn’t justify it in this setting.
 
Spiritual pride does exist and it exists equally among Roman Catholics as well as Protestants. It’s a human problem. No church has a corner on it. Not the Popes, not the reformers. No one on this forum knows the other, and for personal attacks of spiritual pride to be flung at one another is inappropriate and un-Christian. To state something about someone that you do not and can not know is smearing the reputation of another person whom you have no solid basis to make the accusation towards. That is a false witness about your neighbor who you are required by God to love and serve…not attack in order to score brownie points in an apologetic mudslinging match.
I beg your pardon? Brownie points? I have no basis or fling at another for no reason? So pride is merely assumed,thus there exist no certitude by anyone? Scripture states otherwise:

Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Proverbs 16:19

But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory. Daniel 5:20
 
I beg your pardon? Brownie points? I have no basis or fling at another for no reason? So pride is merely assumed,thus there exist no certitude by anyone? Scripture states otherwise:

Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Proverbs 16:19

But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory. Daniel 5:20
Can you please explain to me how you have certitude that you know for a fact that Radical believes what he believes out of spiritual pride.
 
There is no reason to believe that any Protestant disbelieves it based on “pride.” That is an uncharitable assumption. I see that term thrown out often in this forum in relationship to both the reformers, and to those of us who adhere to the principles they espoused. We should always remember that we are still governed by the Commandments, one of which being not to bear false witness.
I think that you are right.
Some Catholics think that, because you are Protestant, you are Luther, Calvin or Henry VIII. In fact, you are children of Reformation and you have no say on what happened in the 16th century.
You are protestant because you are Protestant. It is difficult to attribute any meaning to it, except the person who is Protestant knows why He is protestant.
 
Can you please explain to me how you have certitude that you know for a fact that Radical believes what he believes out of spiritual pride.
Seriously? I mean…really? Where were you under the thread dealing with the Real Presence of the Eucharist? Radical’s DENIAL of the Real Presence of the Eucharist taught from the get-go by the early church,after scores of references were presented by many folks.All he did was use St.Augustine as proof to claim St.Augustine believed in a symbolic eucharist.

Yet when I asked Radical to present ONE ECF rebuking St.Augustine’s for believing and teaching the Real Presence of the Eucharist all I received were opinions from Radical,not an iota of historical evidence from ANY ECF teaching the Real Presence was heresy or false. Yes that is pride,which is no different than Luther who pushed his doctrines…his will over the will of the church. Yes…PRIDE is what blinds one’s spirituality.

Come on…
 
I’m afraid that I shouldn’t devote the time to reading either of those very lengthy books at my point in life. I’m 24 and I’m in dental school, and so I’m trying to focus my efforts on reading from Catholic sources, and then hopefully I’ll be able to spend some time branching out to non-Catholic sources in a couple years or so. Would you mind sharing a couple relevant points from these collections of articles?
well, good luck with what you’ve got on your plate…I plan on responding to onemangang’s post and some of the details will likely come out.
Perhaps you’d like perfectly clear quotes starting from year 34 AD, but of course those don’t exist. However, I think that the seeds of the doctrine were always present in the deference paid to the Bishop of Rome by churches outside of Rome. One example is when a letter was sent to Pope Clement towards the end of the first century AD even though the apostle John would have been geographically closer.
a few things:

a) It seems that (with respect to the situation at the time of 1st Clement) there is a “general agreement among scholars that the structure of ministry in the church of Rome at this time would have resembled that in Corinth: with a group of presbyters sharing leadership, perhaps with a differentiation of roles among them, but with no one bishop in charge.” (Sullivan in From Apostles to Bishops p 100)

b) “…(1st Clement) is generally recognized as the kind of exhortation one church could address to another without any claim to authority over it.” and “…some have seen an exercise of Roman primacy, but most scholars nowadays, including Catholics, interpret this ( sections 59 & 63) rather as an expression of confidence that the Holy Spirit has spoken through what they have written.” (Sullivan p. 91)

c) the John thing is questionable for a few reasons….John may have been dead, the distance difference is not that significant and other Churches may have also written (now lost) letters.
Towards the end of the second century, the evidence clears up some more. Consider this quote by Irenaeus:
“the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).
this is a much contested passage….I note that:

a) although called the most ancient church….it wasn’t

b) although claimed to be founded by Peter and Paul, it wasn’t

c) Paul is a factor in its significance, which would be totally irrelevant if it was all about Peter being the rock, having the keys etc.

….so what did Irenaeus get right WRT Rome and the authority that the CC now claims for itself? This “authority” is 100 years late and prone to inaccuracies.
Sorry, I’m not clear on what you’re saying here. Would you mind rephrasing it?
granted the CC enjoys a certain unity….but if it is unity around error, then there is not much value in that unity. The unity that the CC enjoys was preserved/obtained so some degree from after Constantine to the Reformation and on by intimidation and violence….a unity obtained in that fashion is not of value to me. God grants his Spirit to all those who believe and we do enjoy that unity (b/c it is achieved by God) with our Catholic brethren and that unity has value to me.
It’s certainly a more logical system than having your average believer depend on his ability to understand the Bible,….
How so? If God’s desire was to have a more direct reliance upon him by each and every believer, then how is having an magisterial mediator more logical?
Also, any historical circumstance that you would possibly bring up to show that any ex cathedra statement has contradicted a previous one would invariably fall short.
well the deck is rigged, isn’t it? For most of history, when Popes made declarations, they did not know to clarify the declaration with “this is ex cathedra” or “this is not ex cathedra.” That leaves the CC free to categorize any erroneous declaration as “not ex cathedra” to preserve “freedom from error” (even if the Pope in question was convinced that he was making an eternally true declaration). Allow any person to categorize anything that he now finds embarrassing as an “unofficial statement on his behalf” and allow that person to redefine, develop or clarify any other teaching (of his) that doesn’t quite sit well with him anymore and, presto, infallibility on the matter of Faith and Morals could be claimed for anybody and any institution…when the claimant gets to solely select what will count and gets absolute liberty to modify what has been said, the claim to infallibility is very easily made and achieved.
 
Seriously? I mean…really? Where were you under the thread dealing with the Real Presence of the Eucharist? Radical’s DENIAL of the Real Presence of the Eucharist taught from the get-go by the early church,after scores of references were presented by many folks.All he did was use St.Augustine as proof to claim St.Augustine believed in a symbolic eucharist.

Yet when I asked Radical to present ONE ECF rebuking St.Augustine’s for believing and teaching the Real Presence of the Eucharist all I received were opinions from Radical,not an iota of historical evidence from ANY ECF teaching the Real Presence was heresy or false. Yes that is pride,which is no different than Luther who pushed his doctrines…his will over the will of the church. Yes…PRIDE is what blinds one’s spirituality.

Come on…
I understand that Radical denies the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist. That doesn’t mean he does so out of spiritual pride. It is an assumption on your part. I am sorry, but the qualifying factor of spiritual pride is not disagreement with your beliefs, Nicea.
 
I understand that Radical denies the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist. That doesn’t mean he does so out of spiritual pride. It is an assumption on your part. I am sorry, but the qualifying factor of spiritual pride is not disagreement with your beliefs, Nicea.
Yes…Iggy…spiritual pride no matter much how you wish to defend Radical. Amazing how so many non-Catholics believe God is the Creator of everything,yet God is not capable of giving Himself through to simple elements (bread & wine) and still be God? Yes…that is spiritual pride,sorry you do not like hearing it,but it is true. Precisely why St.Paul calls for spiritual wisdom:

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.
 
I’d just like to step in here briefly…

To be fair, anyone disagreeing with the teaching of the Eucharist doesn’t necessarily do so out of spiritual pride. I’m sure that does exist. I’m sure some deny it because they think Christ can’t present Himself through bread and vine, but some do not believe God can’t… just that He doesn’t. There’s a difference.
 
I’d just like to step in here briefly…

To be fair, anyone disagreeing with the teaching of the Eucharist doesn’t necessarily do so out of spiritual pride. I’m sure that does exist. I’m sure some deny it because they think Christ can’t present Himself through bread and vine, but some do not believe God can’t… just that He doesn’t. There’s a difference.
Okay to be fair, the fact many believe God cannot present Himself through bread and wine is based on what? If not pride…then what?
 
Okay to be fair, the fact many believe God cannot present Himself through bread and wine is based on what? If not pride…then what?
Nicea325, what gives?..after all this time you still can’t describe an opposing position with any sort of accuracy. It is not God “cannot”, but it is God “does not”. For example, I believe that God does not present himself through the popcorn and soda pop (at movie theatres)…he could, if he wanted to, but he doesn’t.

Second, the underlying Greek philosophy that the CC uses to describe the change of substance that allegedly occurs is just man made philosophy. I think that it is a bad philosophy with its definitions of “accidents” and “substances”…a philosophy that needs serious revision in light of the scientific discoveries that have occurred in the last 2000 years.

As such, it is God doesn’t (as opposed to God cannot)…and even if God was so inclined, the description of what allegedly happens is just plain wrong b/c of the bad underlying philosophy.
 
Nicea325, what gives?..after all this time you still can’t describe an opposing position with any sort of accuracy. It is not God “cannot”, but it is God “does not”. For example, I believe that God does not present himself through the popcorn and soda pop (at movie theatres)…he could, if he wanted to, but he doesn’t.

Second, the underlying Greek philosophy that the CC uses to describe the change of substance that allegedly occurs is just man made philosophy. I think that it is a bad philosophy with its definitions of “accidents” and “substances”…a philosophy that needs serious revision in light of the scientific discoveries that have occurred in the last 2000 years.

As such, it is God doesn’t (as opposed to God cannot)…and even if God was so inclined, the description of what allegedly happens is just plain wrong b/c of the bad underlying philosophy.
U-huh…speak for yourself-eh Radical? Bad philosophy? LOL! And Radical’s philosophy is correct? I do not have to formulate an argument because it has been and said long before you or any novelist Protestant existed. I simply parrot what has been taught and said for centuries,so your point is meaningless.

Yeah…sure.After all this time and you still have failed miserably to present one valid-precise and explicit account by ANY ECF teaching the RP as heretical? When do you plan to provide those sources, I apparently never read as a graduate student? Enlighten me Radical.And spare me your so-called distinguished list of scholars who lived how many centuries later after Jesus?

God “does not”…according to you Radical a mere mortal whom I place no trust at all.

BTW: Your church “hopping” gives little credence to your so-called “accurate” position.
 
This argument really benefits us Catholics. The answer to your question is the Church.
that is your answer based on your faith…it isn’t my answer.
Again, is the Protestant canon closed, and by who’s authority is it closed?
Maybe not…if 1st century Christian equivalent to the Qumran site was found and it split 1 Corinthians into two separate letters with a little extra content, then I think many Protestants would be prepared to consider a NT with 1st, 2nd and 3rd Corinthians.
The most recent of finds like the Dead Sea Scrolls seem to support the Catholic position, There were multiple Deuterocanonical books found in Hebrew/Aramaic.** Relatively recent archeological findings and analysis of the Dead Sea scrolls (Qumran) of 1947 revealed that several deuterocanonical books were originally composed in Hebrew (Sirach, Judith, 1 Maccabees,) or Aramaic (Tobit). **
It seems like every time something of antiquity gets unearthed or discovered, it solidifies the Catholic Churches claims.
I have no idea as to what your reasoning would be behind this claim. Sirach, Tobit, Letter of Jeremiah and Psalm 151 were found at Qumran…but then again, so were Jubilees and Enoch. So if the presence of 3 books from the apocrypha means that the entire apocrypha is scripture, then what becomes scripture on the strength of the presence of Jubilees and Enoch? ….and Esther isn’t at Qumran, so what does that mean?
You set up a criteria that is untenable. First off, if it was always a belief of the Church beginning with the apostles, there would be no need to write about it.
well following this logic, if the resurrection was always a belief beginning with the apostles, then there would be no need to write about it.
It is only when questions arise from without or within the Church, does it constitute a teaching or instructing on the matters at hand.
that is just a little too convenient an excuse to explain the absence of various Catholic teachings in the written record of the church of the first few centuries. That absence is treated as an absolute license to project any teaching back through the period of silence to the beginning.
If you would accept that a teaching is not limited to writing but to action then maybe we could discuss the matter at hand.
absolutely agreed…and that is why it is disingenuous to assert that the corrupt Popes did not teach error….they very much taught error by their conduct.
There is great antiquity of writings on Apostolic succession, but the actions of the ECF like Clement of Rome, show the already known teaching by practice.
Clement of Rome intervened in Corinth around 80 A.D which would have been under the bishop of Antioch. That would have been under the Apostle John, or some other bishop that John had conferred in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
see my comments to Chris above. Also: Your date for Clement seems too early. How do you arrive at the conclusion that jurisdictional boundaries would have been established by 100 AD?
… though not written about explicitly, but expressed by action. As the saying goes Actions speak louder than words!
Your assessment of 1st Clement leaves much to be desired.
Lets back this up a bit History shows that Christ founded the Catholic Church, Tradition and scripture bear His witness.
it is a witness not seen by many scholars….including many Catholic scholars
Wow, that sounded incredibly familiar, much like the Atheistic arguments of Richard Dawkins about how people of certain personality types only believe in God to be comforted and have a sense of community.
if Dawkins actually said “only” then his point differs from mine…as I don’t think “only” applies.
You say that you look at through the eyes of History and then say " I realize that you would think that the historical evidence supports your view!" Do things in History need to be interpreted?
yes, some things do
Evidence demands a verdict. If the Catholic Church would be put on trial (which it is, by every Tom, Dick and Harry, when He says I know better than those Papist do) I think the evidence is overwhelming to gain a conviction of the Catholic Church being the Church that Christ founded.
and I (and countless renowned Christian scholars) think that you are very wrong.
Can you say the same about Protestantism?
I don’t think that Protestantism is the Church that Christ founded…the suggestion would make no sense. The Church is the body of Christ. Upon believing in Christ as Lord, one is given the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14) In accepting such believers and in giving the gift of the Holy Spirit, God did not distinguish between the Jews and the Gentiles (Acts 15:8-9) and does not distinguish between the Catholics and the Protestants and Orthodox today. As we are all given one and the same Spirit, we constitute the one body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:12-27) God has worked to combine us into that one body so that there should be no division (1 Cor 12:25). Within that body, all should be seen as indispensable (1 Cor 12:21-22) No part of the body should think that it is more important than any other part. (1 Cor 12:21-22 & Romans 12:3).
 
The Church is the body of Christ. Upon believing in Christ as Lord, one is given the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14) In accepting such believers and in giving the gift of the Holy Spirit, God did not distinguish between the Jews and the Gentiles (Acts 15:8-9) and does not distinguish between the Catholics and the Protestants and Orthodox today. As we are all given one and the same Spirit, we constitute the one body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:12-27) God has worked to combine us into that one body so that there should be no division (1 Cor 12:25). Within that body, all should be seen as indispensable (1 Cor 12:21-22) No part of the body should think that it is more important than any other part. (1 Cor 12:21-22 & Romans 12:3).
But what does this Body of Christ profess?

That Baptism saves? Or that it is an ordinance?
That Sunday is the day of worship? Or that Saturday is?
That women can be ordained? Or that only men can?
That divorce and re-marriage is adultery? Or that it’s another sacrament?
That abortion is a grave moral evil? Or that it’s a sacrament?

:confused:
 
that is your answer based on your faith…it isn’t my answer.
Correct I have faith hat Jesus established a visible Church, gave Peter the keys, gave apostles authority, and the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church infallibly!

It goes back to how does a Protestant know which book is the right, between Samuel and Daniel, when the two vary? They don’t! With a fallible collection of infallible books, discerned fallibly, there is no telling which one is correct! After all the fallible men could have been wrong in their selection.
Maybe not…if 1st century Christian equivalent to the Qumran site was found and it split 1 Corinthians into two separate letters with a little extra content, then I think many Protestants would be prepared to consider a NT with 1st, 2nd and 3rd Corinthians.
Proving my point! Would all protestants accept the new find? Lets not stop at Corinthians since you bring it up. Lets say there were many additions to many books, would all protestants accept all? Or would it look more like this: Some accept additions of Romans, Timothy, and Corinthians, while others accept only the addition’s to Jude. If there were additions to six books there could be up to 720 different Protestant bibles. How long would that disintegration into subjectivity take 10 years? 50 years? 200 years?

Just using the digits from 1 to 6, the answer would be 65432*1 = 720, because you have 6 choices for the units digit, and then 5 choices left for the tens, and then 4 choices left for the hundreds and so on.
I have no idea as to what your reasoning would be behind this claim. Sirach, Tobit, Letter of Jeremiah and Psalm 151 were found at Qumran…but then again, so were Jubilees and Enoch. So if the presence of 3 books from the apocrypha means that the entire apocrypha is scripture, then what becomes scripture on the strength of the presence of Jubilees and Enoch? ….and Esther isn’t at Qumran, so what does that mean?
My reasoning is that many books were rejected by the JEWS because they were written in Greek. One of the criteria was that the books be written in Hebrew to make the grade, so to speak. Since the books of Sirach, Judith, 1 Maccabees, were found in Hebrew, it should be reconsidered for canon, being that the criteria has been met.

Why stop there, if the findings at Qumran had Jubilees and Enoch, but left out Esther why do the protestants not reconsider the canon, unless they accept the Jewish compiling well after 70 A.D?

It’s a fair question to ask if the Protestant canon is closed, but completely out of the question for Catholics being that our Canon has been closed by AUTHORITY! Would there be a council or synod called to declare a new Protestant canon? How would it be determined? By seeing if it lines up with other Scripture, that has already been discerned and compiled by the Catholic Church? I’ll tell you what. If there were 6 or so additions found in existing scripture. I would buy stock in Zondervan, because it would disintegrate into 720 different canons real fast!
well following this logic, if the resurrection was always a belief beginning with the apostles, then there would be no need to write about it.
that is just a little too convenient an excuse to explain the absence of various Catholic teachings in the written record of the church of the first few centuries. That absence is treated as an absolute license to project any teaching back through the period of silence to the beginning.
NO, it’s not the same logic. I was giving you an example but, if the belief was not known explicitly in the writings, the Holy Spirit could declare that through a council. In Acts 15 you have a question arise about circumcision, something God required his people to enter into Covenant. How could they (The Apostles) overturn God’s immutable decree, declared in the Holy Scriptures? Who has given such AUTHORITY to men to change God’s Immutable decree such as circumcision. Jesus never said “do not circumcise the gentiles” Just look at Genesis 17: 9] Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. [10] This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. [11] You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. [12] For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner–those who are not your offspring. [13] Whether born in your household or bought with your money,** they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant**. [14] Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

By who’s Authority was circumcision, deemed no longer necessary?

Questions by Jews inside the Church were claiming gentiles needed circumcision! The question needed to be resolved, so its brought to scripture?🤷 No the bulwark and pillar of Truth,** the Church!** 👍

Peter stood up and declares that God is doing something new. Peter standing up was big in that time, it shows that he had a position of authority!

**James expresses the feeling of the meeting, in the same Spirit as Peter **

The Church speaks Her deputation: the message to Gentile Christians

**People received the message with joy. **

I’m sure the Sola Scriptura crowd back would have said " No Peter, James, Paul and the rest of you who are accepting this Tradition of men, I rebuke thee in the name of the Lord, scripture says in Genesis 17:9 …"
 
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