Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[boban]

1)
2) God is timeless, but where does scripture that Heaven itself is timeless?

2 Peter 3: 8

If God is timeless and the persons we know that have died are not timeless, then they are not together with God. The saints are not disembodied because when they entered timelessness they exist before the world began and after it is all over in a one glorious everlasting now.

It would be easier to teach a dog calculus than for us to understand this and the Trinity. ( Corr 2: 9) “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,”

 

[Knight4God]

2 Peter 3: 8

If God is timeless and the persons we know that have died are not timeless, then they are not together with God. The saints are not disembodied because when they entered timelessness they exist before the world began and after it is all over in a one glorious everlasting now.

It would be easier to teach a dog calculus than for us to understand this and the Trinity. ( Corr 2: 9) “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,”

Not necessarily, there have to be different levels of God’s presence. We experience a level of God’s presence now, non-Christians less. And us in Heaven more. But God can be fully present in a temporal plane while his nature is still inherently timeless.

Although the more I think about it, it would not matter because timelessness would not equal omnipresence. And even if I were to give that Heaven was timeless then in Daniel 10 when the angel (who would I suppose be coming from a timeless plane) appears to Daniel he still cannot be in more then one place on earth. If he could be, then he would not have been held back in Persia, because he could always be in Persia and with Daniel at the same time. So it seems you have to say either: If Heaven is a timeless place then in interaction with Earth the being in Heaven must interact on a temporal level or Heaven is not timeless and the angels and saints are still bound by time in some way. And also you have to show how timelessness == omnipresence or == omni"audio".

 

[Lazerlike42]

Luk 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

We know that angels are very powerful. 2 Kings 19 provides on example, in which an angel destroys 185,000 soldiers in one night. We can also from this see that they can at least move around pretty fast. St. Thomas Aquinas would say that they move at the speed of thought. As we see in Luke, the saints in heaven are like angels. Therefore, we can conclude that they would have no problem getting from one place to another if that were necessary for them to hear our prayers. I would say it is not. It was only mentioned for the purpose of a speculation converning the interaction of the saints on earth. However, the communion of the saints is generally limited to the idea of the saints hearing our prayers while in Heaven. Note that this is only one arguement. I am in the process of researching others.

 

[boban]

Knight4God:

Not necessarily, there have to be different levels of God’s presence. We experience a level of God’s presence now, non-Christians less. And us in Heaven more. But God can be fully present in a temporal plane while his nature is still inherently timeless.

Although the more I think about it, it would not matter because timelessness would not equal omnipresence. And even if I were to give that Heaven was timeless then in Daniel 10 when the angel (who would I suppose be coming from a timeless plane) appears to Daniel he still cannot be in more then one place on earth. If he could be, then he would not have been held back in Persia, because he could always be in Persia and with Daniel at the same time. So it seems you have to say either: If Heaven is a timeless place then in interaction with Earth the being in Heaven must interact on a temporal level or Heaven is not timeless and the angels and saints are still bound by time in some way. And also you have to show how timelessness == omnipresence or == omni"audio".

How wonderful it is to change the discussions here from the religion of God to the God of our religion. But you and I have to be careful that we don’t think that we can grasp what is eternal with a temporal brain. I’m told that heaven will be the rapture of newly discovering an infinite God forever. Let’s go at it here with humble caution knowing that we cannot plumb it any more than scratch the surface.

As for the timless entering our time, for instance, no problem for the incarnation.

“We are living in a time when we can no longer presume that if a person says that they believe in God that you can understand what they mean by that.” Fr Michael McDonagh

 

[Lazerlike42]

As far as Heaven being outside of time, we can see this by looking at the Bible’s use of the term “eternal life.” The Greek word translated as eternal does not mean something along the lines of “forever.” It is a word that refers to eternity, which is a very different thing. Eternity is a state of existence in which time does not exist.

 

[boban]

Thank you.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Singinbeauty:

I guess what I am trying to say is that it only matters what your heart portrays to God. Not what you do but your works will be a byproduct of your heart’s condition. So it comes down to the state your heart is in and what God sees beyond our pittiful attempts to pretend to have a heart for Him.

You don’t believe in free will?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Knight4God:

As their place is in Heaven, they would have to journey back to earth to hear us.

Why? Not that I necessarily believe they can hear us but still, why?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Singinbeauty]

Catholic4aReasn:

You don’t believe in free will?

In Christ,
Nancy

I am not sure where you are coming from. Of course we have free will. That free will is what puts your heart in the state that God sees. Your choice of whether to TRULY believe affects your heart. If your choice is to not believe then your heart will be cold and hardened and God can see that. No matter if you go to church and go through the motions or not. You can claim God with your mouth and still not claim Him with your heart. This is what I was talking about.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Singinbeauty:

I am not sure where you are coming from. Of course we have free will. That free will is what puts your heart in the state that God sees. Your choice of whether to TRULY believe affects your heart. If your choice is to not believe then your heart will be cold and hardened and God can see that. No matter if you go to church and go through the motions or not. You can claim God with your mouth and still not claim Him with your heart. This is what I was talking about.

I was going by your comment about the things we do being a “by-product” of our faith. If it’s a by-product then there’s no free will involved in the things that we do, they just involuntarily happen has a by-product… Where do you find the 'by-product" idea in the bible?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Singinbeauty]

I thought my post addressed that. If you have a TRUE faith you can see that by your works. Hence the obvious bad choice of the word ‘by-product’. I don’t know why this is tripping you up. Let me explain it a different way…

Our free will leads the choices we make. Free will basically means that neither God nor Man forces you to make certain choices. When faced with a decision we make the choice, whether good or bad, of what we feel we must make. Each path leads to a certain destination. Regarding Faith you are faced with MANY choices. Our free will lets us choose the faith we feel is the right path. God does not force us to choose Him. He will prod us and lead us but He won’t make us choose Him over another if that is not the choice we want to make. Right? Ok, so these choices, in regards to Faith, will affect our hearts in how God sees us. If we choose Him we will have a faith that urges us to do His perfect will. There is still free will, we can choose to ignore the Holy Spirit but, if we have TRUE faith that is hard to do as I am sure you know. If this is the case God can see that our hearts are truly for Him, alone. BUT if we choose another path that leads away from Him our hearts will reflect this and be hardened and He will see this also. Now, there are those who have chosen the path that leads away but for some reason, whether internal or external, they want to LOOK like a christian and will try to fool us and God by professing Him to be God of all BUT they don’t actually believe it. And that is evident by their fruits. Our works, or the things we do, are the FRUIT of our Faith.

 

[Evanescence]

I got this accusation from someone recently that we changed the ten commandmants so we can “worship” our saints, he wasn’t very clear on it though…

Evanescence

 

[Knight4God]

Lazerlike42:

Luk 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

We know that angels are very powerful. 2 Kings 19 provides on example, in which an angel destroys 185,000 soldiers in one night. We can also from this see that they can at least move around pretty fast. St. Thomas Aquinas would say that they move at the speed of thought. As we see in Luke, the saints in heaven are like angels. Therefore, we can conclude that they would have no problem getting from one place to another if that were necessary for them to hear our prayers. I would say it is not. It was only mentioned for the purpose of a speculation converning the interaction of the saints on earth. However, the communion of the saints is generally limited to the idea of the saints hearing our prayers while in Heaven. Note that this is only one arguement. I am in the process of researching others.

Sure, I’d say that they move near instantly, they still must “move” in some sense. And Jesus’ resurrection body could apparently do the same and move through walls. And this would certainly help if a Saint was going to listen in on communication to them, but it would still not get around that they are localized, and while in heaven would not have a connection to earth, unless they knew you were talking to them and “transported” themselves there long enough to listen. Limiting it to only hearing is fine, but if they are localized spiritual entities in Heaven they would still need to be in some kind of range of the person talking and be able to process all those communications (like how I switched from the controversial word ‘prayer’?) at once. When you research the others do post them then

 

[Knight4God]

boban:

How wonderful it is to change the discussions here from the religion of God to the God of our religion. But you and I have to be careful that we don’t think that we can grasp what is eternal with a temporal brain. I’m told that heaven will be the rapture of newly discovering an infinite God forever. Let’s go at it here with humble caution knowing that we cannot plumb it any more than scratch the surface.

As for the timless entering our time, for instance, no problem for the incarnation.

“We are living in a time when we can no longer presume that if a person says that they believe in God that you can understand what they mean by that.” Fr Michael McDonagh

Sure, timeless can enter our time, but in relation to the saints my angle I’m going at is that while they interact with a temporal time (assuming they are timeless in heaven) they interact in a temporal way. Christ on some level is different due to having the divine nature, which saints and angels to not have.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Tonight, I was able to watch a hockey game taking place 400 miles away. I could see what was going on, and I could even hear what the players were saying. And this was all done by human means!

Surely God can arrange something like that for the saints…

 

[Knight4God]

Lazerlike42:

As far as Heaven being outside of time, we can see this by looking at the Bible’s use of the term “eternal life.” The Greek word translated as eternal does not mean something along the lines of “forever.” It is a word that refers to eternity, which is a very different thing. Eternity is a state of existence in which time does not exist.

What is your source? my BDAG Greek-English Lexicon lists three uses for “aionios”

1. a long period of time
2. a period of time without beginning or end
3. period of unending duration.

Seems it could mean that, but does not have to mean that.

And second, why would this apply to Heaven now and not post-resurrection? Again, if the Saints have not undergone resurrection yet (I think we’d both agree) then they are waiting for the final judgment and resurrection of the dead and the new heavens and new earth. “Heaven” at this point is more “temporary” until the resurrection. So it would seem that the saints would till be temporal while waiting.

 

[Knight4God]

Catholic4aReasn:

Why? Not that I necessarily believe they can hear us but still, why?

In Christ,
Nancy

Lazerlike42 makes a good point with the TV analogy, but answering your point. the fact that they are still localized and finite beings. So they could only focus on one at a time. Even with a form of communication transfer from earth.

(Again I believe I stated earlier it’s theoretically possible, but I find it unlikely)

 

[Knight4God]

Evanescence:

I got this accusation from someone recently that we changed the ten commandmants so we can “worship” our saints, he wasn’t very clear on it though…

Evanescence

I’ve heard that before. You guys and Lutherans just separate the Ten Commandments differently. Placing the one about idols with having no other God. Tell him:

1. the numbering are arbitrary
2. that’s a big conspiracy theory, assuming the your church is evil and you guys are too dumb to figure out that they “covered up a commandment”
3. doesn’t really interact with the Theological issues
4. it’s a silly accusation
5. A Protestant said so

 

[Knight4God]

Lazerlike42:

Tonight, I was able to watch a hockey game taking place 400 miles away. I could see what was going on, and I could even hear what the players were saying. And this was all done by human means!

Surely God can arrange something like that for the saints…

Possible, at least for one request at a time. But isn’t this an argument from silence? It assumes a system which is not mentioned? This shows it is on some level possible, but not necessarily probable or certain enough.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Knight4God:

Possible, at least for one request at a time. But isn’t this an argument from silence? It assumes a system which is not mentioned? This shows it is on some level possible, but not necessarily probable or certain enough.

Here’s where I have to bring up any and all of the countless beliefs Protestants hold which are not explicitly or often even implicitly in the Scriptures.