E
E.E.N.S
Guest
How do you know he knew what you meant?
It doesn’t mean that they can’t either.
Okay…
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E
E.E.N.S
Guest
I thought that this would be a good time to post this…often our seperated bretheren will use 1 Tim 2:5 (“there is one mediator…”) to try to disprove the intercession of the saints and piscourage prayers to them in this sense. But in context of this very verse is 1 Tim 2:1-4 "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,… This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,…"
We are all called to be “mini-mediators” in Jesus, through Jesus, for Jesus, and with Jesus.
We are all called to be “mini-mediators” in Jesus, through Jesus, for Jesus, and with Jesus.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
One person’s “abuse! abuse!” is another person’s honorable devotion to the Almighty, quite often.
Picture if you will an Italian American family in a large city, about 2 generations out from Italy. Not always, but OFTEN, the people in this family are social, unpretentious, and very “pictorially” as well as truly SPIRITUALLY religious. Family altars, pictures, blessed rosaries, girls all with first or middle names of Maria, etc.
Picture another family, possibly English in origin, some members Catholic, some not, about 6 generations from the “old country”, fairly educated, also large city, West Coast likely, maybe Seattle. Again not always, but OFTEN, the people in this family may be more introverted, more inclined to “discussion”, not at all “outwardly” religious as that is considered “intrusive” to the feelings of others.
Somebody from family 2 sees somebody from family 1 kneeling in front of her statue of the Virgin, candles lit, rosary beads between the fingers, rapt face, Italian or Latin prayers quickly said.
And comes away thinking, “My goodness, those people are totally INAPPROPRIATE in their religious practice. Look at that woman and how she has decked out that statue and all the Mary, Mary, Mary talk”.
But WAS the person inappropriate–or was it simply that due to an innate and unconscious BIAS on the part of the person from family 2, that because HIS family is not “outwardly” religious or has a certain PERCEPTION of Mary, that everybody ELSE should do, think, act, and say just what THEY do, think, act, and say? And that if somebody is “different”, then they are not just “different” but WRONG, or even IDOLATROUS?
Picture if you will an Italian American family in a large city, about 2 generations out from Italy. Not always, but OFTEN, the people in this family are social, unpretentious, and very “pictorially” as well as truly SPIRITUALLY religious. Family altars, pictures, blessed rosaries, girls all with first or middle names of Maria, etc.
Picture another family, possibly English in origin, some members Catholic, some not, about 6 generations from the “old country”, fairly educated, also large city, West Coast likely, maybe Seattle. Again not always, but OFTEN, the people in this family may be more introverted, more inclined to “discussion”, not at all “outwardly” religious as that is considered “intrusive” to the feelings of others.
Somebody from family 2 sees somebody from family 1 kneeling in front of her statue of the Virgin, candles lit, rosary beads between the fingers, rapt face, Italian or Latin prayers quickly said.
And comes away thinking, “My goodness, those people are totally INAPPROPRIATE in their religious practice. Look at that woman and how she has decked out that statue and all the Mary, Mary, Mary talk”.
But WAS the person inappropriate–or was it simply that due to an innate and unconscious BIAS on the part of the person from family 2, that because HIS family is not “outwardly” religious or has a certain PERCEPTION of Mary, that everybody ELSE should do, think, act, and say just what THEY do, think, act, and say? And that if somebody is “different”, then they are not just “different” but WRONG, or even IDOLATROUS?
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
I’m sorry, but I’m still not seeing your point. Since Catholic artwork has nothing to do with praying to God what is the connection you’re trying to make here?
How is the different from asking someone in heaven to pray for you?
I don’t know if they can hear us or if they are simply made aware of our prayer requests. The Church doesn’t have a definitive teaching on that, but scripture certainly indicates that somehow they are aware of our prayers (Rev 5:8).
Those in hell are separated from God and from the body of Christ.
In Christ,
Nancy
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Understanding that misconception it’s understandable that they quote 1 Tim 2.
In Christ,
Nancy
Those who quote 1 Tim 2 are often under the misconception that we pray to those in heaven in the same way that we pray to God. That we ask them to ANSWER our prayers INSTEAD of asking God. They make the error that “pray” has only one definition and that is the praying that one does to God. If one is praying to someone he MUST be doing to that person what he does to God because that’s the only kind if praying there is.
Understanding that misconception it’s understandable that they quote 1 Tim 2.
In Christ,
Nancy
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Golf_Nut,
Golf_Nut:
How do you reconcile your interpretation with the fact that the people of Israel knelt before the Temple in prayer, a Temple filled with graven images?
I disagree that it is the image being prayed to. Simply claiming what you see and *think *is adoration is not sufficient. Can you prove it? Can you see into their hearts and know that Catholics are worshipping the statue by praying before it? *Did the Isrealites worship the graven images of cheribim and oxen in their Temple when they turned toward it in prayer *(cf.I Kings viii. 38; II Chron. vi. 34; Dan. vi. 10)? Unless you know what was in their hearts, what it appeared to be was worshipping graven images of cherubim and oxen made of gold, right?
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Ave_Maria_1
Guest
As we begin to approach the holy season of Lent, it is also the time of year when many people make or remake their Marian consecration. Some use the 33 day formula of St. Lousi de Montfort or it could be as St. Maximilian formulated. In thinking of this for myself, I read these thoughts on Marian consecration from St. Maximilian and from the de Montfort fathers and wished to share them with you too.
Ave Maria!
Catechism on Marian Consecration
48. WHAT EXACTLY DOES “CONSECRATE” MEAN?
When something or someone is said to be consecrated, this means it is set apart by God for his exclusive use; it becomes holy. The word comes from the Latin consecrare: con-together + secrare-sacred.
We were all consecrated at Baptism when the priest poured holy water on our heads and baptized us “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” That is, we were “set apart” for the Holy Trinity. We are changed forever and pledged to the exclusive service of God, by God.
However, baptismal consecration represents only the germ of consecration. God has chosen us to a lifetime of Christian holiness, and “his call is irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). But God does not do anything in us or to us without our cooperation. We must continually give ourselves to God, to ask for, and to seek, holiness on a daily basis, until it becomes a natural habit that lasts a lifetime.
Finally, in her perfect spiritual sensitivity to the Holy Spirit’s inspiration as the Immaculate Conception and “Spouse of the Spirit,” she is the “Daughter of the Father” - his creaturely masterpiece prepared by him for all eternity to be the tabernacle of the Living God. By linking our lives to the Immaculata’s through total consecration, taught Maximilian, we too become channels of grace and “spouses” of the Holy Spirit, “overshadowed by the power of the Most High” (Lk 1:35). Like Mary, we become intimately united to the Ttinity and powerful co-redeemers with Jesus in bringing about the salvation of the world.
By consecrating ourselves to Mary, she will always point us to the heart of Jesus, for "her will is so perfect that in nothing does it differ from God’s." Marian consecration thus becomes the ideal way to fulfill our baptismal promises, which we renewed at our Confirmation. Maximilian summarized our Christian mission in the beautiful expression: “To win the world for the Immaculata, and as soon as possible.”
As Vatican II teaches, calling upon Mary’s intercession “does nor hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ, but on the contrary fosters it.” (Lumen Gentium, no. 60). Therefore, coming “to Jesus through Mary” through our Marian consecration is not an extraordinary way of worshipping God and bringing about our final sanctifica*tion - it is the best way!
Ave Maria!
Catechism on Marian Consecration
48. WHAT EXACTLY DOES “CONSECRATE” MEAN?
When something or someone is said to be consecrated, this means it is set apart by God for his exclusive use; it becomes holy. The word comes from the Latin consecrare: con-together + secrare-sacred.
We were all consecrated at Baptism when the priest poured holy water on our heads and baptized us “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” That is, we were “set apart” for the Holy Trinity. We are changed forever and pledged to the exclusive service of God, by God.
However, baptismal consecration represents only the germ of consecration. God has chosen us to a lifetime of Christian holiness, and “his call is irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). But God does not do anything in us or to us without our cooperation. We must continually give ourselves to God, to ask for, and to seek, holiness on a daily basis, until it becomes a natural habit that lasts a lifetime.
- WHY SHOULD WE CONSECRATE OURSELVES TO MARY? God willed that Mary would have a special role in our Christian life when he gave her to us as our spiritual mother at the foot of the Cross (In 19:27). It is a universal role assigned to her by God: All Christians of every age are to “take her into his home”-into our hearts, minds and every aspect of our lives. This is why we pray to her and through her, asking for her assistance.
Finally, in her perfect spiritual sensitivity to the Holy Spirit’s inspiration as the Immaculate Conception and “Spouse of the Spirit,” she is the “Daughter of the Father” - his creaturely masterpiece prepared by him for all eternity to be the tabernacle of the Living God. By linking our lives to the Immaculata’s through total consecration, taught Maximilian, we too become channels of grace and “spouses” of the Holy Spirit, “overshadowed by the power of the Most High” (Lk 1:35). Like Mary, we become intimately united to the Ttinity and powerful co-redeemers with Jesus in bringing about the salvation of the world.
- DOES MARIAN CONSECRATION TAKE AWAY FROM MY RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS? On the contrary, consecration to Mary heightens the depth of our commitment to Christ. It is a way to express explic*itly that our ultimate goal and end is God.
By consecrating ourselves to Mary, she will always point us to the heart of Jesus, for "her will is so perfect that in nothing does it differ from God’s." Marian consecration thus becomes the ideal way to fulfill our baptismal promises, which we renewed at our Confirmation. Maximilian summarized our Christian mission in the beautiful expression: “To win the world for the Immaculata, and as soon as possible.”
As Vatican II teaches, calling upon Mary’s intercession “does nor hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ, but on the contrary fosters it.” (Lumen Gentium, no. 60). Therefore, coming “to Jesus through Mary” through our Marian consecration is not an extraordinary way of worshipping God and bringing about our final sanctifica*tion - it is the best way!
A
Allan1972
Guest
There is no argument against the fact that the saints intercede
or pray, but that you have to or can pray to the saints. It is simple logic. Praying to the saints is not the same as saints praying to Jesus. Show scripture that says that you have to pray to the saints for them to know what to pray. Maybe they know what to pray by the Holy Spirit. They can see what’s happening from heaven, they don’t need anyone to pray to them. Also, there is no need to pray to a saint if you can pray to God himself which this scripture shows.
“18 For through him(Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father” Ephesians 2:18
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
I see you dug up an oldy!
Take time and read through the other 380 posts in this thread and you should be able to clear up your misconceptions.
Start from the beginning, it will be easier to follow for you.
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Allan1972
Guest
The problem is that Catholics argue that paying is not the same as worshiping. Praying is a form of worship. If someone prays to Allah they are worshipping him. If someone prays to God, then they are worshiping him. Catholics are just choosing a different word for it. Whether it is a request or praise, it is communication with a spirit other than God.
I"ll say it again. The saints praying in heaven is a different idea than praying to a Saint in Heaven. It is two different things. Where in the old testament or the new testament did any child of God or Christian pray to anyone in heaven but God.
It would have to be somewhere else to be true. I just ruled out Revelations, so whereelse is it. There is no where.
B
Brendan
Guest
Allan,
Here is a line from Shakepear’s Hamlet ( Act I, Scene II)
Is it your understanding that Queen Gertrude is worshipping Hamlet in this play?
And here is the Puritan Michael Wigglesworth in a poem.
“Give ear, I pray thee, unto what I say,
That God may hear thy voice another day.
Thou hast a Soul, my friend, and so have I,
To save or lose; a Soul that cannot die.”
Is Wigglesworth now worshipping his reader here? Not very proper behavior for a staunch Calvinist.
Or perhaps you might misunderstand the verb “to pray”
It means to Entreat, To Implore, or to Humbly Request.
Here is Websters with the modern definition of the verb
Note that even it it’s modern context, the verb only addresses the Divine in its secondary, intransitive sense.
M
mnmom
Guest
Maybe the misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants is because Catholics believe in the Real Prescence of Jesus in the Eucharist and that is the Catholics ultimate worship is the Mass, God made man physically present in our midst now and for always. Whereas Protestant mode of worship is prayer. I don’t know if I explained that right but someone more intelligent than I maybe could explain it better.
S
stinkcat_14
Guest
Allan, please check out the following link:
law.stanford.edu/publications/projects/campaignfinance/collection/aclj.complaint.html
It is regarding a lawsuit filed concerning election financing, it says the following:
“WHEREFORE the Plaintiffs respectfully pray that this Court grant the relief set out below in the demand for judgment.”
and
“WHEREFORE the Plaintiffs respectfully pray that this Court grant the relief set out below in the demand for judgment.”
and ends with:
"PRAYER FOR RELIEF
On the foregoing causes of action, the Plaintiffs respectfully prays that the Court grant it the relief set forth below:
- The Plaintiffs respectfully pray the entry of a declaratory judgment, that the challenged provisions of FECA, as amended by BCRA 2002, violates the constitutional rights of the Plaintiffs.
- The Plaintiffs respectfully pray the entry of a permanent injunction against enforcement of the challenged provisions of BCRA 2002 barring the Defendants, their agents, servants, employees, and all persons in active concert with them, from enforcing the challenged provisions of law against the Plaintiffs in violation of their constitutional rights.
- The Plaintiffs respectfully pray the entry of an order granting to the Plaintiffs their costs, including a reasonable award of attorneys fees, pursuant to Title 28 U.S.C. § 2412, the Equal Access to Justice Act.
- The Plaintiffs respectfully pray that the Court grant such other and further relief as it deems just in the circumstances."
His name is Jay Sekulow, you better go and tell him to stop the blasphemy!
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Augustine22
Guest
I don’t see why a saint (Mary) couldn’t do something for us beside bring our prayers to God. If we know they hear our prayers and care then why wouldn’t God let them help in some way?
Like on earth even. People may pray to God for others. And God can inspire people to do the actual helping. It all just gives glory to God.
Isn’t all this worry a little overdone? As a Dad, I don’t worry when my son gets credit for doing something good, even though he couldn’t have done it without me. When something good is said about my kid, it reflects on me to.
Same thing with God.
Like on earth even. People may pray to God for others. And God can inspire people to do the actual helping. It all just gives glory to God.
Isn’t all this worry a little overdone? As a Dad, I don’t worry when my son gets credit for doing something good, even though he couldn’t have done it without me. When something good is said about my kid, it reflects on me to.
Same thing with God.
Z
Zooey
Guest
No, it’s not!! Praying is asking. I have been known to
ask, even pray (beg, supplicate,implore, etc) , my cat to get out from under my feet. Unlike the ancient Egyptians, however, I do not worship my cat. (Mind you,
some of my acquainatances would argue with me in this case, but I don’t!)With apologies to our Muslim friends, there is no “Allah” to be worshipped. Only the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. But we digress.
Actually, it would be more accurate to say: Because I worship God, I will pray to him.
I think there is a misunderstanding of the words “pray/er” & “worship”.
No, just correcting the errors in your thought.
So is typing into a computer…http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif
No, it’s not!! I realize that it would make you happy, if someone were to be persuaded to think this. But it is the same thing.
It’s a
big book, laddie. There is a limit on how many words I can type here!!How about reading it for yourself? With an open heart & mind, I mean. Not just searching for prooftexts to http://bestsmileys.com/hitting/12.gifwhap somebody up side the head with!!
Ah! Ahttp://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/5.gif student of Mr Luther, I perceive!! That means we must also rule out the Epistle of James, parts of Daniel & Esther, the epistle to…ummmmm…
No! I don’t think so. I refuse to tailor my Bible to meet your prejudices! (There is, if you will recall, a rather
nasty penalty for that kind of tampering…
Oops! I forgot!! The Revelation of St John having been tossed, that reference is no longer in your approved reading list…).
M
Mary_Henley
Guest
I have a wonderful Baptist friend who has great discussions with me on many topics.
We have found that many of our differences stem from word semantics.
The word worship is one of them. The musselmans worship Mohammad when the word worship is used as follows,
Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible
Worship
Reverence or homage offered a person because of his excellence. We adore God because of His infinite uncreated excellence (see Latria); we venerate Our Lady and the saints because of the manifestation of God’s excellence in them (see Hyperdulia; Dulia). No person or thing should take the place of God, or be honored in a manner due to God alone, for this is idolatry, which God forbade. ** All worship not directed to God Himself must be subordinate to Him **(Ex. 20:3-5; Deut. 5:9; John 4:22).
Our worship should be from the heart (Deut. 5:32; 6:5; Joshua 22:5; Sir. 7:31; Is. 29:13). When this inner sentiment is expressed in words and actions, as in vocal prayer, prostration, genuflection, the sign of the cross, etc., it becomes exterior worship. This external manifestation of our love and praise is also demanded by God, for we are made up of body and soul, and must honor Him with our whole being (Gen. 4:3-5; 8:20; Ex. 24:5; 25-31; 36-40; Lev. 1-9). Again, our social nature requires that we worship with our fellowmen. Our external acts of public worship conform to a ritual, centering around the Eucharistic Sacrifice, which has been developed by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
(C)
noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. **formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: **They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
**5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object) 6. to render religious reverence and homage to. **7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object) 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
A little digging up of the origin of the word is very helpful too.
So many words lose so much in translation.
We have found that many of our differences stem from word semantics.
The word worship is one of them. The musselmans worship Mohammad when the word worship is used as follows,
Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible
Worship
Reverence or homage offered a person because of his excellence. We adore God because of His infinite uncreated excellence (see Latria); we venerate Our Lady and the saints because of the manifestation of God’s excellence in them (see Hyperdulia; Dulia). No person or thing should take the place of God, or be honored in a manner due to God alone, for this is idolatry, which God forbade. ** All worship not directed to God Himself must be subordinate to Him **(Ex. 20:3-5; Deut. 5:9; John 4:22).
Our worship should be from the heart (Deut. 5:32; 6:5; Joshua 22:5; Sir. 7:31; Is. 29:13). When this inner sentiment is expressed in words and actions, as in vocal prayer, prostration, genuflection, the sign of the cross, etc., it becomes exterior worship. This external manifestation of our love and praise is also demanded by God, for we are made up of body and soul, and must honor Him with our whole being (Gen. 4:3-5; 8:20; Ex. 24:5; 25-31; 36-40; Lev. 1-9). Again, our social nature requires that we worship with our fellowmen. Our external acts of public worship conform to a ritual, centering around the Eucharistic Sacrifice, which has been developed by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
(C)
noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. **formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: **They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
**5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object) 6. to render religious reverence and homage to. **7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object) 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
A little digging up of the origin of the word is very helpful too.
So many words lose so much in translation.
U
Unitas
Guest
Uh, that’s the idea…
If this is how you feel then there’s no reason to argue about it. What you just described is exactly what it is.
We believe in the intercession of the saints. The saints taking our prayers to God is them interceding for us. If our prayers are granted then it is by God’s power, not theirs.
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