Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

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cheddarsox:
You don’t need to “defend your Mother” because no one is attacking her. What is being questioned in IMPROPER devotions toward her. I would think that people with a true love for the Virgin would be the first to speak out against such!

Mary has a rightful place of honor.
**
Some people**
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dishonor her by placing her first in their heart, devotion and worship, a place she herself would refuse. She points to Christ, but some do not heed her counsel. Instead they treat Mary as if she herself were divine and a goddess.

It is not my intent to dishonor Mary, but rather to address improper devotions toward her.

cheddar"Some people" dishonor the Bible by placing it first in their heart, devotion and worship, a place the Word of God itself would refuse. It points to Christ, but some do not heed its counsel. Instead they treat The Bible as if it were divine.

It is not my intent to dishonor the Bible, but rather to address improper devotions toward it.

Perhaps you see now how Catholics sometimes feel about your beliefs?

The point is that if you stick to the actual teachings of the church, then you have something to discuss…but if you allege, (as you have) that we make Mary a goddess (which in fact we do not, that is something that you have been mistaught.) then you begin your whole discussion from an error and unless you listen to what we are telling you that we really believe (regardless of what you have heard, or even perhaps some errant Catholic may have said or done) you will never get this answered to your satisfaction. Holding us responsible for one person’s error is like saying that because one Catholic murders someone, that the church teaches that that is okay. Not so in either case.

Get the cheese outta your sox. :eek: 😉
Pax tecum,
 
Cheddar, your comments are bang on. Other than you, people are missing the point. Especially, the Church Militant. He just refuses to address the conduct of kneeling before an image of Mary, praying to her, etc. as constituting adoration that is contrary to the Commandment.

In addition, to pray to Mary implies that she has some sort of divine power to in turn communicate with Jesus or God.

Instead, the Militant just says we do not understand.

Militant, how is kneeling and praying to Mary not adoration? If that is not adoration, I dont know what is.

(Watch him dodge this question - and just heap another label on me! like ignorant, non-catholic, etc.).
 
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Golf_Nut:
Ah, “Church Militant” your name is very apt.

I am not a member of any other church. I have looked at the other postings you mentioned and they do not address my concerns anyway.
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:rotfl: Do you know what my name means? 🙂

The church Considered thus, the Church is divided into the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant.

It is further employed to signify the Church Militant of the New Testament.​

Church Militant= The Christians still alive on earth, still fighting the spiritual warfare.

Church Suffering= The Christians in Purgatory washing up for the Lamb’s Supper.

Church Triumphant= The Christians already in Heaven and pulling for and interceding for the rest of us (Hebrews 12:1)

Hey, I’m not the one mistakenly arguing against something that the church doesn’t even teach, and I was charitable in my post, as well as informative. So just what has you so hacked off at us?

Mickey did ask you to mind your charity, and as an n-C buddy of mine on here once told me, if ya need to go get some sweet tea…go ahead. 🙂
Pax tecum,
 
Church Militant:
:rotfl: Do you know what my name means? 🙂

The church Considered thus, the Church is divided into the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant.

It is further employed to signify the Church Militant of the New Testament.​

Church Militant= The Christians still alive on earth, still fighting the spiritual warfare.

Church Suffering= The Christians in Purgatory washing up for the Lamb’s Supper.

Church Triumphant= The Christians already in Heaven and pulling for and interceding for the rest of us (Hebrews 12:1)

Hey, I’m not the one mistakenly arguing against something that the church doesn’t even teach, and I was charitable in my post, as well as informative. So just what has you so hacked off at us?

Mickey did ask you to mind your charity, and as an n-C buddy of mine on here once told me, if ya need to go get some sweet tea…go ahead. 🙂
Pax tecum,
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I knew you would dodge the question.
 
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Golf_Nut:
Cheddar, your comments are bang on. Other than you, people are missing the point. Especially, the Church Militant. He just refuses to address the conduct of kneeling before an image of Mary, praying to her, etc. as constituting adoration that is contrary to the Commandment.

In addition, to pray to Mary implies that she has some sort of divine power to in turn communicate with Jesus or God.

Instead, the Militant just says we do not understand.

Militant, how is kneeling and praying to Mary not adoration? If that is not adoration, I dont know what is.

(Watch him dodge this question - and just heap another label on me! like ignorant, non-catholic, etc.).
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Whoa whoa whoa… 😃
Did I say that? NO… Please respond to what I actually say and not some notion of what my name means or something.

Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe.

“In addition”…there is never any implication that the Blessed Virgin has the qualities of diety. Look at Hebrews 12:1 does that not plainly say that those in heaven are witnesses to our race for the faith? Look at Revelation 5 :6-8…that’s pretty clear that our prayers are offered to God by the angels & saints already in heaven. Why would this not apply to the Blessed Virgin as perhaps the greatest saint in all of Christianity? Can you point to any other believer that was more holy than she? I mean who else in the New Testament is called “full of grace” by the angel that stands in the very presence of God. So far as I can tell Mary is the only human to ever hear those words, which tells me that she is amazing in her faith, since she believed in Christ even before she concieved Him.

What is adoration? What I offer to God alone because I know the difference between the love and devotion that I have for the Blessed Virgin and the very holy saints who have gone before me, and whom I love for their examples that I take encouragement from in my daily life.
Pax tecum,
 
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Golf_Nut:
people are missing the point. Especially, the Church Militant…
Watch him dodge this question
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**We should shun loose speech like an asp’s venom…for it can plunge us into total forgetfulness of the inner struggle. **
St. Hesychios
 
Golf_Nut said:
"*Thou shalt not have strange gods **before ***me."
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If you speak of pagan abuses, these abuses do not make our veneration of images loathsome. Blame the pagans, who made images into gods! Just because the pagans used them in a foul way, that is no reason to object to our pious practice. Sorcerers and magicians use incantations and the Church prays over catechumens; the former conjure up demons while the Church calls upon God to exorcise the demons. Pagans make images of demons which they address as gods, but we make images of God incarnate, and of His servants and friends, and with them we drive away the demonic hosts…If the Scripture says, The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands (Ps. 135:15), it is not forbidden to bow before inanimate things, or the handiwork of men, but only before those images which are the devil’s work.
**St. John of Damascus: On the Holy Images **
 
Golf_Nut said:
"*Thou shalt not have strange gods **before ***
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me."

Gee, that is pretty clear to me. I would interpret that to mean: (1) not to kneel before images, statutes, **nor the likeness ** of anything that is heaven above (other than representations of God).

You write that since there is no Catholic that makes an image to worship then my argument is moot? How does this alleged point address the other Commandment not to kneel before images?

“*Thou shalt not **adore *** them . . .” Praying to an image of Mary is adoration. Moreover, some people have gold medallions of Mary that they hold on a chain as they pray. my father did. But somehow you want to argue that praying is not adoration.

You wrote: The intercession of saints has been an expressed belief among Christians since the beginning. Why else would the graves of the earliest martyrs have prayers written on them asking the faithful departed to remember them in prayer?

Finally, some of you have questioned whether I am a Catholic, as stated in my profile.

How I missed all this some time back I have no clue…sorry about that. This is in response to your post # 328. I quoted it, but the character limit busted me so I’ve had to edit the quote in order to get my response into a single post for you, though I have tried to respond to every thing that you brought up. No offense intended 🙂

Firstly G_N, the commandments do not say not to kneel before an image, and you have not cited a passage that supports that. Let me ask you this, did the Jews worship idols when they knelt in the temple before the Ark of the Covenant? No they didn’t…yet it had the images of 2 cherubim on its top…and that by the very command of God Himself.

I know that some people see things this way, but it is not an opinion informed by the Word of God.

Exodus 20:5 says “Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them:…”

Deuteronomy 5:9 says “Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them…”

Now- though some might kneel to offer worship to some idol as in the case of Baal, this is not something that the commandments specifically say, nor prohibit.

Now, I know that I have never been silly enough to kneel in adoration of anything but the Eucharist, which IS Biblically stated to be the body and blood of the risen Lord Jesus Christ. This is another topic though and I have dealt with it HERE

Another thing…who actually prays to a statue or picture? Not me…nor any of the Catholics that I know.

I have a question for you…
Just because people at one time wrote prayers on the graves of martyrs, does not mean that it was not done under a mistaken belief or interpretation of the Bible.
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Did the Bible as we have it today even exist for these people? Weren’t the apostles still alive at this time? And wouldn’t they have taught those believers better than that if it was wrong?

Look to history: What Christianity has taught from the begiining.
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As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas: “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria: “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen: “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).*

300 years ago? You? Naw my friend, ever hear of “the Know Nothings”? The Know Nothings
In spite of all your misunderstandings…don’t assume that I don’t like you or am putting you down. I WAS just like you.
 
Good point!

QUOTE=Karin]Honor: Great respect and admiration
Worship: treat somebody or something as deity: to treat somebody or something as divine and show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion

I worship and honor God.
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Hi golf nut!

Have you read the tracts on this website about the questions you have? Maybe they’ll help.

Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Hope that helps!!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
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I have read them.

On the issue of saints, 1 Tim. 2:5 just seems to reinforce my views. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” This is again quite clear.

Anyway, I appreciate your links.
 
Church Militant:
I have a question for you… Did the Bible as we have it today even exist for these people? Weren’t the apostles still alive at this time? And wouldn’t they have taught those believers better than that if it was wrong?

I have no idea. It is a question for a historian.
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Militant, I understand that Catholics do not actually believe that a stone image is a deity. My problem is with petitioning the saints or Mary with prayer. Prayers should be directed to God, not the saints or Mary. The “cloud of witnesses” passage is a stretch to be interpreted as permitting prayer addressed to a saint. We should err on the side of caution and follow the relevant commandments. (By the way, I am not a preacher and have no interest in proselytizing. These concerns are my own.)
 
Golf_Nut said:
(By the way, I am not a preacher and have no interest in proselytizing. These concerns are my own.)
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We know, you are a Catholic, remember? 😉 (…even though you don’t adhere to what the Church has taught and believed since the time of the apostles.)
 
E.E.N.S.:
We know, you are a Catholic, remember? 😉 (…even though you don’t adhere to what the Church has taught and believed since the time of the apostles.)
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Quite frankly, in light of this discussion, I seriously doubt that I am a catholic in any meaningful sense of the word. For me, church is a place to commune with God and Jesus. I meditate on what I hear but will not do what i do not believe.
 
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Golf_Nut:
I have read them.

On the issue of saints, 1 Tim. 2:5 just seems to reinforce my views. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” This is again quite clear.
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The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. Remember, the life which Christ gives is eternal life; therefore, every Christian who has died in Christ is forever a member of the Body of Christ. This is the doctrine which we call the Communion of the Saints. Everyone in Christ, whether living or dead, belongs to the Body of Christ.

From this it follows that a saint in heaven may intercede for other people because he still is a member of the Body of Christ. Because of this membership in Christ, under his headship, the intercession of the saints cannot be a rival to Christ’s mediation; it is one with the mediation of Christ, to whom and in whom the saints form one body.

Some Christians–most Protestants, in fact–deny that the Bible gives support for devotion to the saints, but they are incorrect. The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord: “But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).

It is clear the Christian has approached a number of heavenly beings: the heavenly Jerusalem, the angels, God the judge, and Jesus the mediator. “The assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven” and the phrase “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” can refer only to the saints in heaven.

First, they are spirits, not flesh and blood. Second, they are righteous people, presumably made righteous by Jesus Christ, “who is our righteousness.” Third, they have been made perfect. The only place where spirits of perfected righteous people can dwell is heaven.

Furthermore, “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” is a perfect definition of the saints in heaven. This passage is saying that, just as Christians approach the angels, God the judge, Jesus Christ, and his saving blood, so also must we approach the saints in heaven.

Catholic Answers
 
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Golf_Nut:
My problem is with petitioning the saints or Mary with prayer.
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Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers? Yes, in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

These texts give us a way to understand how the saints offer our prayers for us. Our prayers are like nuggets of incense. They smell sweet and good. The 24 elders around the throne, who are saints, and the angels offer these nuggets of incense for us. They set them on fire before the throne of God.

This is a beautiful image of how the intercession of the saints works. Because the saints are so close to the fire of God’s love and because they stand immediately before him, they can set our prayers on fire with their love and release the power of our prayers.

Catholic Answers
 
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Golf_Nut:
Quite frankly, in light of this discussion, I seriously doubt that I am a catholic in any meaningful sense of the word.
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So then you are not Catholic? You have me confused. :confused:
 
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